Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic has 25,955 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 6 days, 9 hours ago by Keith.

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April 30, 2016 at 10:01 am#813017
terraricca
Participant
Nick
words don’t become flesh ;and God his with someone other than himself ,get serious
April 30, 2016 at 10:14 am#813021
NickHassan
Participant
Hi T,
If you do not understand scripture
do you deny it?

April 30, 2016 at 11:00 am#813032
terraricca
Participant
N
say that to yourself and stop of adding to scriptures or take out
April 30, 2016 at 12:10 pm#813037
kerwin
Participant
Nick,
Romans 7 is Paul speaking under the Law and without access to the ability to walk according to the Spirit.
He read the Spiritual Law and learned from it as a dutiful student learns from his instruction but he lacked to power to overcome his flesh.
He uses ideas that he also uses elsewhere such as the idea of “sin in the flesh” though in Galatians 5 and elsewhere he sums it up with the word “flesh”.
Another one is the Law as the schoolmaster that instructs the mind but does not impart the Spirit.
The words “O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” tell of his rescue from slavery of sin at the hands of Jesus Christ. He is free because God gave him the Spirit to walk by and doing so his mind and spirit became harmonious despite the objections of sin in his flesh.
The largest difficulty with understanding is that it is a fairly long teaching and therefore he to drop the threat of it before getting to the end. The NKJV breaks it up into parts which may lead to more difficulty understanding it. Verses 1 to 6 are a transition from what he teaches in chapter 6 and he is carrying on some ideas from that chapter, which he goes into more details later in the chapter without explicitly telling us that. He seemed to expect a longer span of attention than many seem to have in this age. Then he talks more about the Law and his struggles under until verse 24 and 25 when introduces the effects of the new covenant.
The one phrase that seems to be out of temporal context is “So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin” in verse 25 but it probably a warning not do strive to live by the Law and so reject the Spirit since he urges that elsewhere.
April 30, 2016 at 12:13 pm#813038
kerwin
Participant
Terrarica,
The silence because this is the last rush before school ends.
April 30, 2016 at 12:31 pm#813039
kerwin
Participant
Terrarica,
I actually covered the first part already.
God testified he would write his Law on the hearts and minds of his people so the word dwells among God’s people.
It relationship to God is like that of a child to his/her father.
15 is linking the word with the qualities of flesh to Jesus just like it earlier linked the light that is in the word to him.
16 is speaking of the word that comes out of God’s mouth one more. John makes a bold claim for him and his intended listeners in that they received the fullness of the word of God as it is written on their hearts and minds.
17 is comparing covenants.
18 is speaking of the word that comes out of God’s mouth as being at God’s heart since it is written on his heart.
Much the same ideas Philo Expressed but used to prove Jesus is Anointed.
April 30, 2016 at 12:43 pm#813041
terraricca
Participant
Kerwin
this is not what scriptures saying as a whole right ? NO
you seem to like doing nothing and so blame God for not having done anything for you right ?
April 30, 2016 at 2:08 pm#813047
kerwin
Participant
Terrarica,
It is a straight up divine word teaching. A well known teaching of the first century. You have been taught to look at it differently but John’s first century hearers would have heard Just what I said.
Hebrews 1:6New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[a]
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
So the Christ is not worshiped by the angels before he was brought into the world and he was not made Lord of all things in heaven and on earth until after his mortal life. On the other hand the word that comes out of God’s mouth has been worshiped by angels since their creation and all things in heaven and on earth have been under it since they were created.
April 30, 2016 at 2:22 pm#813048
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Kerwin…..VERY GOD POST BROTHER. but i doubt PIERRE’S CAPABLE OF RECIEVING IT.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
April 30, 2016 at 3:17 pm#813054
kerwin
Participant
Gene,
Thank you!
April 30, 2016 at 3:18 pm#813055
terraricca
Participant
Kerwin
Terrarica,
It is a straight up divine word teaching. A well known teaching of the first century. You have been taught to look at it differently but John’s first century hearers would have heard Just what I said.
Hebrews 1:6New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[a]
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
So the Christ is not worshiped by the angels before he was brought into the world and he was not made Lord of all things in heaven and on earth until after his mortal life. On the other hand the word that comes out of God’s mouth has been worshiped by angels since their creation and all things in heaven and on earth have been under it since they were created.
======================================================================================
so how your scriptures fit with ;
Heb 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”
it does not say worship does it ? NO
and we all know that the word for worship is the same for honor
=——————————————————
you say; On the other hand the word that comes out of God’s mouth has been worshiped by angels since their creation and all things in heaven and on earth have been under it since they were created.
————————————————————————————————————
show me the scriptures to support your claim ?
April 30, 2016 at 3:29 pm#813056
kerwin
Participant
Terrarica,
show me the scriptures to support your claim ?
I have but you do not believe the Passages.
Even t8 and some Trinitarians admit that the words “The word is God” means the word has the qualities of God but you do not believe.
You also believe the word meanss the word.
There are three that are mentioned as contributing to creation in Genesis 1 and none of them is the Christ. One of them is the word of God.
It is really clear except where it is obscured by false teachings.
April 30, 2016 at 5:08 pm#813064
terraricca
Participant
kerwin
no ,you did not give me a scripture that support your claim ,
and i don’t support that THE WORD OF GOD , means THE WRITTEN WORD OR THE WORDS SPOKEN all of the time ,context speaks ,
and so you haven’t answered my question
May 1, 2016 at 3:16 am#813103
kerwin
Participant
Terrarica,
The context does not speak of Jesus being with God in the beginning.
Genesis 1:1-3New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Footnotes:
Genesis 1:2 Words in italic type have been added for clarity. They are not found in the original Hebrew or Aramaic.
Do you see Jesus mentioned in these words?
A simple yes or no answer.
May 1, 2016 at 3:28 am#813108
terraricca
Participant
Kerwin
Terrarica,
The context does not speak of Jesus being with God in the beginning.
===========================================================================
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature/form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father
who do you try to kid, ?
May 1, 2016 at 9:16 pm#813155
NickHassan
Participant
Hi t,
Do you not know of the Spirit?
May 2, 2016 at 1:37 am#813164
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Terraricca. .. 1 Col 15-16, AND is talking abut God the Father NO not Jesus.
JOHN 1:10, is speaking abut GOD THE FATHER, WAS “IN” THE MAN JESUS AND the world, as well as you, dOES NOT “RECONIZE” GOD, WHO WAS “IN” JESUS DOING the works. You as well as the world do not “TRULY” BELIEVE GOD WAS “IN” THE MAN JESUS, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO “HIMSELF”.
You as all false teachers run your false understandings of the above scriptures into the teaching of Phi 2:6-11 which is speaking of a completely different point. Had you understood that God the Father was himself was “truly” working in and through JESUS thenyouwould say as THOMAS did, my lord (adoni, a human ruler) “AND” MY GOD (adonia, the almighty God) . WHO WAS PRESENT THERE ALSO “IN” the man JESUS. You have not yet come to see and understand that, so you run all kinds of scriptures together to try to prove your false teachings ABOUT JESUS. BUT those of the truth are lead by the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, so you can not decieve them with your false worldly teachings about JESUS.
peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
May 2, 2016 at 4:25 pm#813218
kerwin
Participant
Terrarica,
The context does not speak of Jesus being with God in the beginning.
Those are your interpretations of those verses; not what literally say.
On the other hand Genesis tells us the one true God was present and so was his word for he spoke. His spirit was there covering the waters.
May 2, 2016 at 4:31 pm#813223
terraricca
Participant
K
you don’t know the scriptures in truth ,so how can you understand anything in it
May 3, 2016 at 2:15 am#813237
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Terraricca. …KERWIN, as well as NECK, has given you some solid answers, but you are not here for any truth, but to push your false versions of scriptures, FORCING THE TEXT to say what in fact they do not say, quoting them, but not understanding them. Your words do not carry the sound of the truth and those who are of the truth know the sound of truth, you simply can’t decieve them no matter how hard you try. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
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