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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 27, 2008 at 4:07 pm#103111
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DK…..each thing you brought up can be easily explained, One Your are transposing Jesus for the word wisdom, no where in the text is the word Jesus mentioned. So why force the text to say it then. And Jesus is indeed first born into eternal life from God Creation, remember it says first (BORN) Not created, so what was he (BORN) from, (the creation). It also say He was first born of MANY BRETHREN, So First born is in reference from the dead, Not all creation as a whole as you and preexistences think. Any who does not see Jesus as a perfected Human Being, Just does not see Jesus in my opinion.

    peace and love to you and yours, hope the baby is doing well…………..gene

    August 27, 2008 at 4:50 pm#103112
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DK

    Jesus being the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 does not make sense to me, because how then would people be able to follow her once Jesus was born a human being?

    How was Jesus able to grow in knowledge and wisdom if wisdom now existed as an infant baby?

    August 27, 2008 at 4:52 pm#103113
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,04:07)
    DK…..each thing you brought up can be easily explained, One Your are transposing Jesus for the word wisdom, no where in the text is the word Jesus mentioned. So why force the text to say it then. And Jesus is indeed first born into eternal life from God Creation, remember it says first (BORN) Not created, so what was he (BORN) from, (the creation). It also say He was first born of MANY BRETHREN,  So First born is in reference from the dead, Not all creation as a whole as you and preexistences think. Any who does not see Jesus as a perfected Human Being, Just does not see Jesus in my opinion.

    peace and love to you and yours, hope the baby is doing well…………..gene


    born (bôrn)
    v.
    A past participle of bear1.
    adj. Abbr. b.
    1.
    a. Brought into life by birth.
    b. Brought into existence; created: A new nation was born with the revolution.

    cre·ate (kr-t)
    tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
    1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
    2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.

    Main Entry: create
    Part of Speech: verb
    Synonyms: beget, build, cause, compose, conceive, concoct, design, establish, fabricate, fashion, form, found, generate, imagine, invent, make, mold, originate, plan, procreate, reproduce, shape, start

    As far as Proverbs Ch 8…the only reason you deny this references Jesus is because it would contradict your theology..Question: If this Proverb is not referencing Jesus then who? And why do many NT writers Reference this verse when mentioning JEsus?

    I've mentioned this before..that the greek and hebrew words for create and beget are interchangeable, and also the word “born” has a similar meaning. It is so similar in fact that the words or forms of the words can be used interchangeably in most cases…

    August 27, 2008 at 4:56 pm#103114
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,04:50)
    Hi DK

    Jesus being the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 does not make sense to me, because how then would people be able to follow her once Jesus was born a human being?

    How was Jesus able to grow in knowledge and wisdom if wisdom now existed as an infant baby?


    You are looking at this the wrong way in my opinion..Jesus was prophesied to be born of a woman, so he had to follow the natural order of growth and creation that his father designed.

    With that being said, the person personified thru wisdom as being Jesus, had to GROW and become and adult. Remember Jesus did not begin his ministry until age 30. From that time onward he perfectly exuded the qualities talked about at Proverbs the 8th chapter.

    August 27, 2008 at 5:07 pm#103115
    Jodi
    Participant

    1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Just what was Jesus manifested or revealed to us AS? Was it a preexisting being that died on the cross for our sins, is that what we are told?

    Jesus was REVEALED to us as a human being with weak flesh just like us. He was revealed as a baby that had to grow in wisdom, not as a preexisting spirit of wisdom.

    Who is the HE, that is being spoken of that was foreordained? The He is the child that “grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.”

    The He that was foreordained was NOT a preexistent being that would come down and temporarily be a human. The He that was foreordained was the infant born of Mary.

    To read John 8:58, as Jesus revealing that he preexisted is to in my opinion read the scripture with your carnal mind and not spiritually as Yeshua intended.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Abraham was able to see the day of Jesus. What day would it be that Abraham would rejoice in? What day of Jesus do we rejoice? Abraham did not PERSONALLY see and meet Jesus in his day. Abraham saw forward to the day when a man would be resurrected from the dead.

    Before Abraham was Jesus existed in God’s mind as the human being that would save the world.

    People, do you not think that God in the beginning had a plan and that He would carry out that plan?

    Does it really make sense that God would create a spirit Son, have that Spirit Son be man’s means of which to attain wisdom, then make that spirit into an infant that knows nothing?

    August 27, 2008 at 5:49 pm#103116
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,05:07)
    1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you  21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Just what was Jesus manifested or revealed to us AS? Was it a preexisting being that died on the cross for our sins, is that what we are told?

    Jesus was REVEALED to us as a human being with weak flesh just like us. He was revealed as a baby that had to grow in wisdom, not as a preexisting spirit of wisdom.

    Who is the HE, that is being spoken of that was foreordained? The He is the child that “grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.”

    The He that was foreordained was NOT a preexistent being that would come down and temporarily be a human. The He that was foreordained was the infant born of Mary.

    To read John 8:58, as Jesus revealing that he preexisted is to in my opinion read the scripture with your carnal mind and not spiritually as Yeshua intended.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”  57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Abraham was able to see the day of Jesus. What day would it be that Abraham would rejoice in? What day of Jesus do we rejoice? Abraham did not PERSONALLY see and meet Jesus in his day. Abraham saw forward to the day when a man would be resurrected from the dead.

    Before Abraham was Jesus existed in God’s mind as the human being that would save the world.

    People, do you not think that God in the beginning had a plan and that He would carry out that plan?

    Does it really make sense that God would create a spirit Son, have that Spirit Son be man’s means of which to attain wisdom, then make that spirit into an infant that knows nothing?


    Yes it does…Jodi…you keep refering to Jesus as a baby..When the Jesus that I follow was a Fully Grown MAN full of Holy Spirit..Here let me help you see the natural progression of scriptures showing Jesus Pre-Existence..follow me now..

    Genesis 1:26.. 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    Genesis 3:15… 15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring [a] and hers;
    he will crush your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

    Proverbs 8… 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed [d] from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

    Daniel 7:13-14… 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Micah 5:2… 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
    though you are small among the clans [a] of Judah,
    out of you will come for me
    one who will be ruler over Israel,
    whose origins are from of old,
    from ancient times. [c] “

    John 1:1.. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 3:13…13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

    John 6:62…62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

    John 8:23.. 23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    John 17:5..5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

    1 Corinthians 10:4…4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    1 Peter 1:10-11… 10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

    2 Corinthians 8:9…9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

    (IF HE DID NOT PRE EXIST..WHEN WAS HE RICH? HOW DID HE BECOME POOR?)

    Philippians 2:5-11… 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    Hebrews 1:2-3…2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    DO I NEED TO GO ON?

    Jodi..the scriptures are clear..CHrist Pre-existed

    August 27, 2008 at 6:52 pm#103121
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!! Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too. What do you think of the opposing view? Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL? Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    August 27, 2008 at 8:08 pm#103123
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!!  Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.  

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too.  What do you think of the opposing view?  Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL?  Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places

    August 27, 2008 at 8:25 pm#103124
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!! Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too. What do you think of the opposing view? Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL? Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places


    Hi DK,

    I too can see where you are coming from, but I don't see it as the truth from the over all picture that the bible gives us.

    Christ is significant to us for who he is as a human being and what God did through him as a human being. Christ, at the right hand of God, is still a human being.

    What purpose was fulfilled by having Jesus preexist? I don't see that there is any.

    August 27, 2008 at 8:35 pm#103125
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,08:25)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!!  Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.  

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too.  What do you think of the opposing view?  Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL?  Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend  :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places


    Hi DK,

    I too can see where you are coming from, but I don't see it as the truth from the over all picture that the bible gives us.

    Christ is significant to us for who he is as a human being and what God did through him as a human being. Christ, at the right hand of God, is still a human being.

    What purpose was fulfilled by having Jesus preexist? I don't see that there is any.


    Why does it have to fulfill a purpose?

    I just gave you a Genesis to Revelation account of Jesus existence. His purpose has evolved as I just showed thru scripture.

    August 27, 2008 at 9:48 pm#103128
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05)
    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim


    Have another look Tim.

    They were upset because he answered their question and the answer upset them. It seems that many others even today get upset at this answer for some reason.

    John 8:57-58
    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    August 27, 2008 at 9:57 pm#103131
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,02:39)
    Tiffany……..It does not say in what (WAY) he was before Abraham does it, you and T8 are (ASSUMING) Jesus meant He existed as an actual being, but thats not what it says, in fact Jesus was foreordained from the foundations of the world, but was (MANIFESTED) in our time Just as Peter said. God said Jesus would come from His brethren, He did not say He would come from a preexistent state of being did He. You and T8 both are (ASSUMING) thats the meaning of the text, because by forcing the text it can be made to fit you theologies, Jesus could have meant He was before Abraham, not actually existing in any form of a being but was in the plan and Will of God.  If you can prove His existence then what was His name and show us any of His activity prior to coming to earth then. Nothing can be produced without altering the spicific word of the texts, why is that, because scripture does not represent Jesus as a preexisting being , but as a son of God born and brought into existence from man kind, who through the POWER OF GOD overcame Sin. Giving us great hope of being able with the Help of GOD to also overcome even as He did the the effectual working of God the Father. Jesus is our example because He is (EXACTLY) the same as we are in (EVERY) way, not Just in part but (EXACTLY) the SAME. IMO

    peace to you all…………..gene


    I am therefore I exist.

    Are you Gene?

    You answer, I am.

    In this scenario it means that you exist as Gene. If you didn't exist, you couldn't say “I am” and technically speaking you wouldn't say “I am”.

    Your doctrine is getting in the way of what Jesus was saying here.

    But is it not better to let Jesus teach us. If he says something and it contradicts, then should we be his teacher? Would it not be better to be the pupil?

    Even YHWH says “I am that I am”. Look up what that means. Do you think YHWH didn't exist or is he saying that he exists.

    August 27, 2008 at 10:04 pm#103133
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DK…..the genesis account says (HE WILL) bruise the head of the serpent It does not say HE HAS and that HE would COME from the SEED of the WOMAN, Not some preexistence seed, as you would have us believe.He would be SON OF MAN Just as He said He was, Saying the Son of Man cane do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, Jesus considered Himself a son of man, and understood His limitations.

    He also considered himself a son of GOD, but he considered us also sons of GOD to ,and said (OUR) Father who art in Heaven, this includes us also then as sons of God. John said (NOW) we are SONS of GOD right, so was Jesus. You and all preexistences are separating Jesus from Our identity , but scripture does not do that, it shows a man made perfect by the power of GOD and raised up from the dead by that same power. Not some supernatural being Having all wisdom and knowledge before he ever came to earth as trinitarians and preexistences want people to believe.

    Like i said you have to force the texts you are quoting to extract that Jesus preexisted IMO.

    peace to you……….gene

    August 27, 2008 at 10:21 pm#103136
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:35)

    Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 28 2008,08:25)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 27 2008,13:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,06:52)
    Jodi and DK,

    Excellent posts!! Oh, my goodness they both are great representations of two opposing sides.

    DK, I've heard some pretty good explainations of all the verses you've pointed out for preexistence, I'm sure you've heard them too. What do you think of the opposing view? Can you see that scripture lends itself to that view AS WELL? Or are you one who is set in their belief system and cannot see another side?

    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Hey Friend :) ,

    Honestly, if I just read Jodi's post I could see where she gets that idea…BUT…if you combine it with the scriptures I gave it does not hold up…honestly, in IMO, you have to read into the scriptures quite more than is needed to come to the view Jodi and you have..That scripture in 1 Peter is the one that everyone who does not believe Christ pre-existed uses…

    But to me, if you interpret that scripture in that way, that makes the bible contradict itself in at least, 15 other places


    Hi DK,

    I too can see where you are coming from, but I don't see it as the truth from the over all picture that the bible gives us.

    Christ is significant to us for who he is as a human being and what God did through him as a human being. Christ, at the right hand of God, is still a human being.

    What purpose was fulfilled by having Jesus preexist? I don't see that there is any.


    Why does it have to fulfill a purpose?

    I just gave you a Genesis to Revelation account of Jesus existence. His purpose has evolved as I just showed thru scripture.


    You showed me your interpretation. I see another. We all have to go by what makes the best sense to us.

    This topic to me is not very crucial. You said yourself, that Christ's preexistence does not fulfill anything. Jesus Christ, the man however, fulfilled a great deal. He is my savior through God's work, he is my brother, and I use his example to guide me through life. When he returns I will follow his leadership with excitement, honor and respect.

    It would have to be said that whatever the preexistent son was, was left behind when he became a human. This is evident because of the fact that he was born an infant. My mind cannot wrap around what part of a preexistent son would then exist inside the womb of Mary and come out as a baby. Jesus was a human being given the fullness of God's Spirit. Jesus was not a human being given the fullness of his previous self. Jesus grew in the spirit of wisdom from God, he did not at one point in his life all the sudden be given part of his old self back.

    If the preexistent son did exist, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he was replaced, and that he no longer plays a role in God's plan. Actually wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the preexistent son died when the egg of Mary became fertilized?

    August 27, 2008 at 10:41 pm#103138
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi all,
    I found this interesting this week.  In this passage Jesus is definitely not one of us.  He is the vine, not a branch like we can be.  We aren't the vine, Christ is.  Christ is not the vinedresser, His Father is.  Here we see the Father, the Son, and believers.  All seperate and not the same.  Jesus is not making himself equal to man.

    John 15:1-8
    1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.

    A few verses later Jesus speaks of abiding in “ME” and  “MY” words abiding in you…

    7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.  

    Think on how to abide in Christ and what that means awhile. I liken it to one of my son's relationship with his girlfriend. When they are not together, they are texting each other. His thoughts are continually towards her. I told him that Christ wants that place in his life. Continually thinking on Him and filtering his thoughts through His mindset. Always anticipating His next “text message”. This kind of relationship with Christ will bear much fruit and the Father will be glorified which is Christ's motivation. Therefore, if we seek this kind of relationship with Christ, we will be shown how we can glorify His/our Father.

    LU

    August 27, 2008 at 10:58 pm#103140
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Good stuff LU.
    Thanks

    August 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm#103141
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.” I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene

    August 27, 2008 at 11:37 pm#103143
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..i have farmed for years and still have a vineyard leased out to someone, one thing i know is that the vine and the branches are all made out of the (SAME) wood and that the vine does not give life to the branches but the Water the comes up from the ground and gives life to (BOTH) the vine and Its branches and the vine nor the branches could produce nothing of themselves. Jesus Said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF> The Spirit of God is this water and gives life to the vine which includes the branches and with out the spirit life no fruit could be produced neither by the vine or it's branches. God is that source that waters that vine and its branches and without Him (BOTH) would die.

    love and peace to you and yours…………..gene

    August 27, 2008 at 11:48 pm#103145
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 28 2008,00:18)

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 27 2008,23:05)
    ” before Abraham was I am” says nothing clearly to me except that the past or present tense
    was not stated clearly enough for us to even understand what was meant.
    The Pharisees were ready to stone Jesus because he answered them in a riddle.

    Tim


    Wait a minute, you mean to tell me if I say before Abraham,it does not say that? That is denying scripture, and not from God IMO. And I am, means what? I thought if I am, before someone, that I am. How else could you understand that.
    Sorry Timothy, I do not agree with you.
    Love Irene


    It does say before Abraham was, and then it does say I am..
    It does not say before Abraham I was. I am is in the present tense.
    I would suspect that not even the Hebrews talked like that.

    If I said “before the rain came, I am”, you would ask, “you are what?”
    That is an incomplete sentence that I still say leaves the interpretation open to conjecture.

    But I understand that you will see what you want to see.
    That is perfectly fine with me. I just do not see the same thing.

    Tim

    August 27, 2008 at 11:52 pm#103146
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi tim4,
    I AM has no present or past to timeless God, or to those of the beginning.

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