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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • November 4, 2024 at 4:34 am#946963
    Berean
    Participant

    @Keith

    The inheritance of the (new) earth for the elect will be after the millennium, not before. At the return of Christ, there will be the millennium which will be a period of judgment of the wicked by Christ and certain saints, and this will take place in Heaven.
    see more here
    👇
    http://www.cyberspaceministry.org/Lessons/Truth/Lesson25/eng-s25.html

    November 5, 2024 at 4:28 am#946964
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…….You claim to be “filled” with the “spirit”, do you still sin? If so, how; doesn’t the spirit lead you like it lead the Jesus?

    DT, show me where I ever said I was “filled” , with Holy Spirit. I said I have the Holy Spirit, (the spirit of truth) Abiding in me, that is how I know you are not of the truth , in rejecting Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul, and the whole New Testament,

    I am not perfect yet, but the spirit of God that abides in me, is working for that goal, just as it says,  ” for he (God) works in us, both to Will,  (cause us to desire) and do of his (God’s) good pleasure’.

    Jesus was right,  if we “lust” after a woman,  we are commuting adulatory with her in our hearts, so you are guilty of committing the act , (in your heart)> if you do it in your heart you will do it .  …..“so a man thinks, so he is”.   That is also written.  God judges not only our actions but also our hearts, as in the case of Cain, God know before Cain committed the act , what Cain would do. Think about that  “O” WISE ONE.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

    November 5, 2024 at 6:21 am#946965
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not.

    Sin is wrongdoing.

    Sin is disobedience to G-d’s commands

    The LAW is the knowledge of wrongdoing.

    The law was 613 commands given to all of Israel by G-d and are how the people where to worship G-d and how they where to treat and respect their fellow man. To say it was to point out or give “knowledge” of wrongdoing is a Pauline lie, because it was more of a “code”, how one was to live. You really should look them up, because they aren’t the “burden” Paul tells you they are; they aren’t what you have been told they are. In fact, Moses before he died said they where easy to follow. Even John in his epistle said the same.

    But what about those WITHOUT the law.

    None are without G-d’s “law.” Explain how Noah was righteous before G-d, what did he do? Explain Abraham, the father of Israel, who had no “written law” to follow, was a friend of God? Job was a righteous man before G-d. Enoch walked faithfully with G-d and never saw death. There was something they followed, what was it? Hint…it wasn’t the Mosaic Law.

    The law is written is our HEARTS.

    Read the comment before; this is how the aforementioned people where able to follow after G-d. It’s always been written on our hearts; everyone knows the difference between good and evil (thanks to Adam and Eve) and it’s the decision one makes when presented a choice.

    The Old Testament took us to the knowledge that we are sinners.

    Another Pauline lie, the Tanakh didn’t bring one to the “knowledge we are sinners.” The Tanakh is broken into three parts: Torah, Prophets, and Writings; the Torah is the “law” you hate and are burdened by, but do recommend reading it, the prophets speak mostly of judgment and redemption of Israel, and the writings primarily give a historical account of the nation of Israel but also include “poetry” and “wisdom.”

    The New Testament is about grace, thus provides the solution to the problem.

    Beg to differ with this statement, G-d extended A LOT of “grace” AND “mercy” to the Israelite’s throughout the Tanakh…may want to give it a read again.

    @DesireTruth, what you are proposing is that God should have left humanity in sin with no way out.

    Except HE didn’t; HE told mankind they have control over sin (Gen 4:7), do you also reject G-d’s words? HE also said to repent, turn from your sin, and HE’LL remember it no more…sounds like a plan to me or do you prefer the words of Paul instead?

    God showed us that he is the Judge.

    Agree, G-d gives perfect justice to all.

    Now he shows us that he is the Father of grace.

    HE has always been, from creation, the Father of grace and mercy and justice and most importantly, LOVE.

    To appreciate something truly, it needs to be hard earned.

    Not sure what you mean here and how this would applied to G-d.

    Otherwise, your attitude is one of indifference. Easy come easy go.

    There is nothing “indifferent” in my attitude nor in what I’m posting, I’m rather passionate about what I’m writing, which has been met with “indifference” and anger. How dare I verify what is written and not blindly accept what I’m told! Shame on me…

    November 5, 2024 at 9:19 am#946966
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    DT, show me where I ever said I was “filled” , with Holy Spirit. I said I have the Holy Spirit, (the spirit of truth) Abiding in me, that is how I know you are not of the truth , in rejecting Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul, and the whole New Testament,

    Of everything I have written in the last several months, what have you verified or proven wrong?

    Of course I reject the Jesus as the true Messiah, he fulfilled being Jewish; what about the rest the Messiah was to do.

    And Paul…what can I say? Need to read Acts 1:21-26 and tell me Paul is an Apostle. More like an impostor. The Jesus even says there are only 12 Apostles and Paul made himself the 13th.

    Again, can the NT be the inspired word of G-d if one lie is found within its pages? How many lies can there be and still be called “inspired”? Explain why most here don’t even agree with what’s written within this “inspired” book.

    I am not perfect yet, but the spirit of God that abides in me, is working for that goal, just as it says, ” for he (God) works in us, both to Will, (cause us to desire) and do of his (God’s) good pleasure’.

    Is G-d looking for perfection? Please cite the passage where G-d says HE expects perfection from mankind. This is another lie of Paul’s.

    Jesus was right, if we “lust” after a woman, we are commuting adulatory with her in our hearts, so you are guilty of committing the act , (in your heart)> if you do it in your heart you will do it . …..”so a man thinks, so he is”. That is also written.

    So if one lust after a woman they have committed the act of adultery (in their heart) even though the act was never committed?!?! Then to say if you do it in your heart to will actually do it?!?!? Do the men you associate with not have self control and proceeded to have an adulterous relationship with said woman. Think it may be time to find new friends. You quote Prov 23:7 as your proof, you may want to include verse 6 with it for context (eyes roll).

    God judges not only our actions but also our hearts, as in the case of Cain, God know before Cain committed the act , what Cain would do.

    You have a verse from the Tanakh where it says G-d judges our heart or does G-d look at the heart and know the desires of man? Of course G-d knew what Cain would do; the biggest take away with G-d’s conversation with Cain is the fact G-d told him he had power over sin. Why won’t you address this conflict of your Pauline teachings?

    November 5, 2024 at 10:12 am#946967
    Keith
    Participant

    The ruling Throne is in heaven, but no where does it say the resurrected are in heaven. Only the ones in the first resurrection=the little flock are in heaven. The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere in the bible.

    November 6, 2024 at 3:51 am#946968
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, what do you do with this scripture……> Jer 17:10…., “I the LORD search the (heart) , I try the reins (mind) , even to give “every” man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings”.

    GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN,  just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying,  to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet.  SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born.   So where does you “self willed” righteousness fit in that DT?

    Cloud Esau, have repented and changed his destiny? , I think not, neither can you or I on our own, change our hearts or our minds.  Only God the Father can do that. IMO, EVEN JESUS SAID YOU CAN’T EVEN COME TO HIM, “UNLESS” THE FATHER DRAW YOU”,  AND it is obvious you aren’t drawn to him , by the very words of your own mouth.

    Again I say to you, “if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent  him”.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

    November 6, 2024 at 11:23 am#946969
    Keith
    Participant

    God foretold things to show that his will, will always occur just as he says. Then the blind mortals can clearly see he is real and he is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. And that is a rare occurrence when God did that.

    God desires-ALL to repent and turn around so that they will not be destroyed=0 fate involved. They must choose using free will to listen to God.

    November 7, 2024 at 4:29 am#946970
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Keith……I completely disagree with so-called “free Will salvation”., everything works through “cause and effect”.   God the Father is the “cause” of all salvation.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Keith……..gene

    November 7, 2024 at 4:33 am#946971
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    DT, what do you do with this scripture……> Jer 17:10…., “I the LORD search the (heart) , I try the reins (mind) , even to give “every” man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings”.

    What exactly am I suppose to do with it? It simply says G-d the examines heart and knows the mind; HE knows the true thoughts and desires of man; and will allow man to walk a path that’s not with HIM and allow them to fail. Don’t stop at the end of verse 10, keep reading.

    GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN, just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying, to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

    WHAT??? G-d “trys people before they are even born” and you come up with Esau and Jacob. Explain how they where “tried” before their birth; I’m not seeing where G-d examined the hearts of the two. In the Gen 25 passage G-d revealed to Rebekah who the two boys she was carrying where to be and they were as G-d spoke. I’m a bit confused at your train of thought.

    Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet. SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born. So where does you “self willed” righteousness fit in that DT?

    Interesting statement. Since G-d chooses the fate of people even before they are born, you’ll have to explain how the Jesus had a choice in laying his life down for all mankind.

    You keep speaking of my “self willed righteousness” which means you either don’t understand or reject what G-d spoke to Cain (Gen 4:7) AND you either don’t understand or reject what G-d spoke thru Ezekiel (chapter 18) when HE said HE desires the death of no man and to repent and live. There is zero “self willed righteousness” in what G-d spoke, just whether or not you accept HIS words AND HIS words are freeing.

    I say to you, “if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent him”.

    For this to be true I would have to accept the Jesus as the Messiah and I can’t anymore; if you would take the time and verify what I’m writing instead of being combative, you would understand why I walked away from christianity and turned solely to G-d.

    November 7, 2024 at 8:03 am#946972
    Keith
    Participant

    Jesus teaches–FEW will find the road that leads off into life( be saved, get grace, get salvation)

    So then you believe Gods will was to condemn the majority by predestination?

    John 3:16 disagrees with that reasoning.

    November 7, 2024 at 8:44 am#946973
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Keith

    You

    The ruling Throne is in heaven, but no where does it say the resurrected are in heaven. Only the ones in the first resurrection=the little flock are in heaven. The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere in  the bible.

     

     

     

    Me

    The Great Crowd

    Rev.7 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, of every nation, and kindred, and people, and tongue, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and with palms in their hands.
    [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb.
    [11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders, and about the four beasts, and fell down before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    [12] Saying, Amen! Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    [13] And one of the elders answered, What are these which are clothed in white robes? And where do they come from?
    [14] And I said to him, Lord, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    [16] And they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light upon them, nor any heat.
    [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

    If we consider this text of Rev.7, indeed nothing tells us that they are in heaven.

    One thing is certain, that they are safe in the presence of God and the Lamb.

    But we must pay attention to the timing 👇 The great crowd before the throne of God is AFTER THE MILLENNIUM AND SO AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF THE WICKED IN HEAVEN

     

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming 👉down from God out of heaven, 👈prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and👉 he will dwell with them👈, and they shall be his people and God👉 himself shall be with them,👈 and be their God.
    [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    HEAVEN ON EARTH WILL BE AFTER JUDGMENT (Revelation 20)

    Isaiah 66:22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

     

    November 7, 2024 at 3:33 pm#946974
    Keith
    Participant

    There are no wicked in heaven, even as we speak. Satan and his angels were tossed out of heaven forever at the war in heaven,( the bruising of satans head) which is Rev 6:2–Both the events mentioned at 6:2 are explained in Rev 12= The war in heaven( ride of the white horse= righteous war) and the birth of Gods kingdom in heaven= He receives his crown.

    New Jerusalem(symbolic) is the bride of Christ

     

    At that point-Rev 21:1–No matter where one stands in all creation they stand before the throne. The Throne= Gods ruling gov’t rule with Jesus as Gods appointed king. The only govt there will ever be again.

    The tent= Gods full protection forever=Lasting peace forever.

    November 8, 2024 at 9:44 am#946979
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Keith

    You

    There are no wicked in heaven, even as we speak. Satan and his angels were tossed out of heaven forever at the war in heaven….

    Me

    Amen!

     

    You

    the bruising of satans head) which is Rev 6:2–Both the events mentioned at 6:2 are explained in Rev 12= The war in heaven.

    Me

    But that’s not where Satan’s head was crushed yet, unfortunately!
    It was at the cross that this happened AND THE CHURCH OF THE END OF TIMES MUST CONFIRM IT WITHIN ITS OWN HOUSE AND LET IT BE MANIFESTED BEFORE THE WHOLE WORLD AND BEFORE THE ANGELS.

    Rom.16:20
    And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen

     

    You

    New Jerusalem(symbolic) is the bride of Christ

    Amen and ALSO A REAL BEAUTIFIL CITY!!!

     

     

    Revelation 6:1, 2: I looked when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four beasts say as with a voice of thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold a white horse; and he who sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering and to conquer.

    The “seven seals” bring us either to glorious victory or terrible defeat; either worship and praise at the coming of Jesus or calling to the rocks to be hidden from the wrath of the Lamb. It brings us to life or death. To the saved, Christ is the Lamb slain; to the lost, He is the avenging Lion of Judah. ​​God will wipe away every tear from the eyes of the saved. The lost will cry out in agony in that day.

    A fierce battle is raging between light and darkness, between Christ and Satan. Each of us takes part in this battle; we cannot escape.

    The horses symbolize God’s messengers. The messengers send and bring salvation and judgment together. Cooperation with God means life and victory; resistance means defeat and death.

    The four horses and their riders obviously symbolize the work of God’s angelic messengers on earth, bringing people to repentance and life and victory; protecting the righteous and keeping the wicked under constraint; pleading with the wicked in an attempt to bring them to repentance; bringing judgment and affliction to those who resist God’s grace, which might lead them to repentance; and final judgment and death to those who refuse to repent. Here we see God’s love and justice, His grace and righteous wrath, together. For centuries Bible students have seen these three panoramic series of events in history (the seven churches, the seven seals, and the seven trumpets) in parallel. Like a television camera’s field of vision moving back and forth, covering multiple aspects of a scene, these three journeys through world history reveal the footsteps of Christ leading to the final scenes of victory. This book is the “Apocalypse of Jesus Christ” in history.

    The white horse is naturally a symbol of righteousness, justice, and victory. The bow in the rider’s hand can represent the conviction that the Holy Spirit is pouring out into the hearts of human beings. “When the strongholds of kings are overthrown, when the arrows of God’s wrath strike the hearts of his enemies, his people will be safe in his hands.” “The words of the apostles were like sharp arrows from the Almighty, convincing men of their terrible guilt in rejecting and crucifying the Lord of Glory.” (Peaceful Conquerors, p. 41).

    The white horse is the proper emblem of the triumphs of the gospel in the first century of Christian history. It symbolized the church of the apostles, or Ephesus in Revelation 2:1.

    November 8, 2024 at 11:32 am#946980
    Keith
    Participant

    The bible says Bruises satans head, not crushes it. Being tossed out of heaven forever is that bruising.

    The bride are living beings= the 144,000)-city is symbolic.

    November 8, 2024 at 8:39 pm#946981
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    I believe there is the bride and THE HOLY CITY.

    👇

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    [14] Blessed are they that do 👉his commandments, 👈 that they may have right 👉to the tree of life, and may 👉enter in through the gates into the city.👈
    …

    November 9, 2024 at 9:07 am#946982
    Keith
    Participant

    Rev 21:1-3— Is basically showing all things made back to perfection. Holy city and tent= Gods kingdom rule over all of mankind as a full protection forever. The bride mentioned are the ones who sit on thrones as kings and priests-a part of Gods govt rule over all creation at that point. Jesus is the main king.

    Jerusalem was Gods holy city in the OT, The throne was in Jerusalem. Now the throne(s) are in heaven. Its not actually coming down to the earth physically. Its likened to a tent = a covering for protection.

    November 16, 2024 at 6:05 pm#947003
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Had to step away due to life events, but what you wrote concerning Jacob and Esau bugged me and had to dig into it further. You wrote:

    GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN, just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying, to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet. SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born.

    The story Paul speaks of is in Genesis 25 beginning in verse 19; HOWEVER, the second part Paul quotes (referring to Rom 9:12-13) is from Malachi 1:2-3. Nowhere in the Genesis passage does G-d ever say HE hated Esau – what you/Paul imply – HE only stated the older was going to serve the younger while they were still in the womb; the prophet Malachi hundreds of years later, after both Jacob and Esau are dead, prophesies against Edom and makes the statement of loving Jacob and hating Edom and, when read in context, is a prophecy against Edom. Who is Edom, in Gen 25:30 we find Esau was called Edom; so the descendants of Esau (Edom) are who G-d is speaking about in Malachi and NOT Esau while he was still in the womb.

    I find it amazing how christianity ignores the obvious. Or is it christianity that ignores what is on the left side of their bible because it’s “old” and only favor the “new” side. When are you going to start verifying what you have been brainwashed into believing is truth?

    Do you honestly wonder why I call Paul a liar? How much more deception will you accept and tolerate from this false apostle? (read Act 1:21-26 and answer how Paul can be an apostle)

    November 18, 2024 at 3:24 am#947009
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Let’s blow another hole in your “self will righteousness” theory.

    Reading Isa 55:6-7 Seek the Lord when He is found, call Him when He is near. 7 The wicked shall give up his way, and the man of iniquity his thoughts, and he shall return to the Lord, Who shall have mercy upon him, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

    Seems to be saying one should be seeking G-d, who is always near and waiting for you; when those with a contrite/repentant heart confess, renounce, and turn from their sins, it is then G-d will have mercy and freely forgive. What I’m not reading is having to believe in or go thru a Jesus figure to be forgiven. I read of a relationship with G-d himself, the creator of all things; being the originator of life, why would HE need another to help him? Is sin the one area G-d is incompetent to handle?

    Turn back to G-d and away from idolatry (anything coming between you and G-d IS idolatry); it’s life changing.

    November 18, 2024 at 1:14 pm#947011
    Keith
    Participant

    All must go through Jesus to get to the Father=learning all he taught, applying all he taught, obeying all he taught to the best of their ability. God gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth.Matt 28:18) and the judging as well( John 5:27)

    November 18, 2024 at 1:17 pm#947012
    Keith
    Participant

    All must go through Jesus to get to the Father= learning, applying and obeying all that he taught to the best of ones ability.

    God gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth=Matt 28:18)  And all authority to judge( John 5:27

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