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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • October 19, 2024 at 8:58 am#946909
    Keith
    Participant

    One can be mislead into thinking they have the son- Matt 7:21-23

    October 20, 2024 at 6:14 pm#946910
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It is true that it is God whom we should seek. Jesus Christ is the mediator of this, so it is through him that we come to the Father. I think many denominations teach that Jesus is the destination when it is the Father.

    October 21, 2024 at 3:26 am#946913
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……YES……Jesus said the ….“greatest commandment ” Is to love the lORD your God , with “ALL” your heart, “ALL” your mind, “ALL” your soul, “ALL“ your strength, and the “SECOND” is like unto it,  (but it is not the same). “You shall love , your neighbor as yourself “.

    On these “TWO” hung “all” the law and the prophets”.

    A door has ” TWO” hinges, they both support the door, but they are not the exact same hinge.  There is a first hing and there is a second hinge they both work to support the same door , so it is with the love of God, the “FIRST LOVE IS THE LOVE FOR “the LORD OUR GOD ,the “SECOND LOVE IS THE LOVE FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR,  Jesus and the rest of man kind,  They are similar, but are not the ” THE EXACT SAME.

    That was the fall of the church at Ephesus in revelations.  They replaced Jesus as their “FIRST LOVE”, and was rejected for doing that, and told to repent or their candle stick would be removed.  We need to make sure we don’t make that same mistake or we also will be rejected at the return of Jesus>

    Peace and love to you and yours  Proclaimer…….gene

     

     

     

    October 21, 2024 at 3:44 am#946914
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Gene

    You

    That was the fall of the church at Ephesus in revelations.  They replaced Jesus as their “FIRST LOVE”, and was rejected for doing that, and told to repent or their candle stick would be removed.  We need to make sure we don’t make that same mistake or we also will be rejected at the return of Jesus>

     

    Me

     

    Gene,

    Concerning the church of Ephesus, you have no biblical or historical evidence to prove what you are saying.
    In my opinion this is because you deny/ignore the full divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    and therefore
    you place him in the category of “neighbor” as a mere creature, which he is not.

    🙏

    October 22, 2024 at 3:43 am#946915
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..if you can’t read the text and see that is exactly what Jesus was telling them, them you simply are blind to the truth, IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean………….gene

     

    October 24, 2024 at 11:35 pm#946934
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    I am not sinless. Besides that, it is not hard to understand that another can pay your fine. God is merciful, but if you reject his mercy, then go ahead and pay your own fine. That is your choice.

    I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance; the bigger the monetary “fine”, the more likely one will remain compliant. Christianity teaches the Jesus paid your sin debt so one can live; he “assumed” your sin guilt; it was his death and blood that atones for the sins of mankind. However, G-d says he wishes no one to die and all to live. And how does G-d say one will “live”, by repenting and turning from one’s wickedness. Why do I need the Jesus since God has already given the path to life? (Ezekiel 18)

    Please explain how rejecting the Jesus is rejecting G-d’s mercy? Mercy comes from G-d, not through or because of a man.

    October 24, 2024 at 11:37 pm#946935
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    (DT) I’m still waiting for when G-d, speaking thru the prophets, said the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin.

    (Proclaimer)Think about it, if God let out that part of his plan as you think he should have if it were true, then Jesus Christ would not have been sacrificed on a cross. Simple as that.

    This response makes no sense and doesn’t answer what has been asked. Why can’t you answer where it’s stated in the Tanakh the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin?

    You said you are sinful and because of the Jesus’ sacrifice and shedding of his blood your “sin debt” is paid. Is your heart truly repentful when asking forgiveness, have you turned from this sinful way; if not, what was the point of the Jesus’ sacrifice? Even under the “sacrificial system” if you weren’t truly repentant of the sin, the sacrifice was meaningless. Besides David said G-d was more interested in a repentant heart than a blood sacrifice (Ps 51:16-17).

    The true Messiah is spoken of in the Tanakh and what he will do and who he will be; did the Jesus fulfilled any of it? When one does read and study the Tanakh, G-d speak of a Messianic age where all will know who’s G-d, who the Messiah will be and what he will do, and speaks of restoring the nation of Israel; so G-d does reveal his plan in its entirety. According to Job 42:2 no purpose of G-d’s can be thwarted. Since G-d’s plan cannot be stopped, would it matter how much of is revealed; who can stop it?

     

    but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the [a]worlds unto our glory: which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: but as it is written,

    Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.

    You quote Paul who says “as it is written”; you’ll have to find that verse in the Tanakh for me, I haven’t found it yet. My study bible has a reference back to Isa 64:4 but the verses aren’t the same.

    Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.

    What was Paul quoting, it sure wasn’t Isaiah. In fact, Paul wasn’t in the same universe of understanding of Isaiah and making up passages.

    Another example of why I call Paul a liar? Read Isa 64 and please find any reference to the messiah being crucified. I’ve already said if you want your eyes opened, start comparing every verse quoted from the Tanakh in the NT and see if it matches and is used in its original context. In this case Paul butchered it to make it say what he wanted it to say AND he’s relying on you to believe every word coming from his mouth and not verifying it. In the first century the gentiles couldn’t verify anything he said; we’re in the 21 century with access to multiple resources and am confused to why most don’t or won’t verify anything they’re told. I suppose it’s easier to keep smashing the “I Believe Button”, unfortunately miss what G-d really said. If christians would begin verify what they’re told is truth, there wouldn’t be a christian religion.

    October 24, 2024 at 11:41 pm#946936
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    (DT) What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; where did God said to “hate your enemy.”

    (Proclaimer) It does not say, “It is written”, but rather, “it hath been said”.

    So, who said to “hate your enemy”? It definitely ISN’T written within the Tanakh. In fact the opposite is written:

    Prov 24:17 While your enemies are falling, do not rejoice; when he trips himself, may your heart not be glad.

    Prov 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread, and if thirsty, let him drink water.

    Neither of these passages suggest “hating” your enemy. So why did the Jesus add “hate your enemy” to Lev 19:18? To point out it was “said” and not “written” would mean it was a verbal teaching, who among the religious leaders would be teaching to hate your enemy? The Torah (first five books) teach how to treat your fellow man; even the Jesus states the “second” commandment is to love your neighbor. Again, who would have been “saying” or teaching to “hate your enemy”?

    Looking at the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 5:22 is another nugget of hypocrisy when the Jesus says “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” Jesus says whoever calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire and in Matt 23:17 he calls the scribes and Pharisees “FOOLS.” Is this a “do as I say, not as I do” moment? How does one continue to call the NT the “inspired word of G-d.” Guess the writer of Matthew forgot to proof read his writing.

    October 24, 2024 at 11:47 pm#946937
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    (DT) Matt 2:15 to Hosea 11:1; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

    (Proclaimer) Carnality cannot see the deeper truths of scripture and wisdom. It is superficial. Jonah was in the belly of the big fish for 3 days and so the Son of Man was in the belly of the earth. Both rose from that hell.

    What does Jonah have to do with these passages? I’m speaking of the writer of Matthew taking Hosea out of context and somehow applying it to the Jesus when the context is explicitly a reference to Israel. The son spoken of in Hosea is Israel and not the Jesus! Carnality has nothing to do with reading and comprehension. Seems like you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

    Jesus is also an embodiment of Israel. Both are called Son. Both exit Egypt. Both spend 40 Days in the Wilderness. A day being of different lengths here of course. Jesus gives His teachings, much like Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai.

    Other than man’s explanation, can you support the Jesus is the “embodiment” of Israel with scripture? Aren’t we all sons of God? Other than the account given in Matthew, is there any other evidence the Jesus went to Egypt? The Jesus was “tempted” for 40 days, the Israelite’s where punished for lack of faith (not talking the NT hopey faith) in G-d; how are they related?

    Fulfilling Israel’s Role: In the Old Testament, Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, showing the world who God is. However, Israel often fell short of this mission. Jesus, as the “true Israel,” perfectly fulfills what Israel was meant to do—being the obedient Son of God and bringing redemption to the world.

    You say Israel “was” meant to be a light to the nations in the past tense?!?! So are you suggesting the “christian” is now “the light”!??! Would suggest taking a little time and read the Tanakh. G-d speaks of the restoration of Israel everywhere and in this restoration they will do what?

    October 25, 2024 at 7:38 pm#946938
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Your style of writing is horrific and obnoxious …..

    Me: Fine, what about my intentions? I keep on writing in that particular style, for a reason NO?

    You: try paragraph format, it’s how the rest of the world actually writes.

    Me: Is it? Click on the address hereunder and you experience another type of HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS writing format!

    https://artlicursi.com/articles/paul%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Crevelation-mystery%E2%80%9D-proof-verse-outline

    Now, on the other hand,  who said that though you write in paragraph format, it is not also, HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS in its contents. It’s not annoying, NOT ONLY TO ME for sure, but also to all other Christians, especially those who are more spiritually minded, for sure also, MORE THAN YOU.

    Me: DON’T RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS, AGAIN TO REMIND YOU; MY PERSPECTIVES ARE SPIRITUAL!

    You: Keep telling yourself that!

    Yes, I keep telling that both to you and to others, especially all those like you, carnally minded still subject to the OT, spiritually dead,  and by saying that, I feel that I am not only being honest but also in this case, making you aware, that as much as what CONCERNS CHRIST is not of this world, I MEAN SPIRITUAL DIRECTLY THROUGHOUT FROM THE FATHER, John 8:23, likewise, both my perspectives and my writing format ARE ALSO NOT OF THIS WORLD, SPIRITUAL, precisely, expressed purposely in my writing format, according to you, HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS, consequently

    my writing format speaks for itself!

    Thus, I am to please no one on these forums, BUT CHRIST, Galatians 1:10, never mind you!  CARNALLY MINDED and SPIRITUALLY DEAD, WITH EVERY RESPECT, FROM MY END also

    HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS!!! as simple as that!

    On the other hand, DT, the TRUTH is, that as I mentioned above, your writing in paragraph format TO PLEASE THE WORLD and MEN, is still HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS, especially, when a person like you writes things CONCERNING CHRIST and His Gospel;

    not only full of errors but also lies.

    Asserted hereunder:

    You: Jesus isn’t divine.

    That Kind of language above DT, IS NOT ONLY HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS but confirms that SPIRITUALLY, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    You are still in EXILE,

    as you affirmed hereunder:

    You: “Jesus will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    DT. The Jewish people don’t believe in Christ!!!

    THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD LIKE THEIR OWN BELIEF OF THE OT! OBSOLETE!

    Now here this,

    NO CHRIST NO GOD, NO GOD NO CHRIST, AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    WE ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST! Asserted in

    John 3:29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: ….

    THUS,  CHRIST IS OUR BRIDEGROOM NOT GOD THE FATHER,

    OUR FIRST LOVE,

    AND OUR TRUE PHYSICAL GOD and FATHER, John20:17, 1 John 5:20, 

    WHEN IT COMES TO OUR SUBSTANCE OF FLESH AND BLOOD, EX SATANIC OF THE OT. OBSOLETE!

    GOD THE FATHER IS OUR FATHER IN SPIRIT: asserted hereunder:

    John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in

    spirit and in truth…..

    John 10:30  I and the Father are one.

    John 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Show us the Father?

    John 15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine…..

    John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    THE GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, SO ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD ,

    GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL!

    Now, get this into your stagnated MORTAL mind,

    SPIRITUALLY THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE STILL IN EXILE!

    Living in the OT. cursed, mortal, and dominated by the sexual reproductive process of flesh and blood satanic through Eve’s sin!

    OBSOLETE!!!

    Galatians 1:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,

    that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

     4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;

    ye are fallen from grace.

    5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    DT, Jesus, IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH! Luke 17:20-37 SPIRITUALLY, gathered the Jewish people and

    RETURNED them to “ISRAEL”, and not just the Jewish people but also the Gentiles LIKE ME!

    Asserted hereunder:

    Ephesians2:4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins,

    hath quickened us TOGETHER IN CHRIST, (by whose grace you are saved,)

    6And hath raised us up together,

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, SPIRITUALLY WAS EMBODIED AUTHENTICALLY IN JESUS THE SON OF MAN ON HIS RESURRECTION, THE SECOND ADAM!

    THE FACT THAT HE CALLED HIMSELF THE SON OF MAN!

    The entire human race was gathered and returned to “ISRAEL”.

    BY WHAT PROCESS MAY I ASK ???

    2 Timothy 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.

    In the above it is more than clear that THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE , THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES, SPIRITUALLY, ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM AND ALL FOR HIM, at a particular moment in time,

    died with Jesus the Son of Man on the cross.  Depicted in

    John12:30Jesus answered, and said: This voice came not because of me,

    but for your sakes.

    31 Now is the judgment of the world:

    now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,

    will draw all things to myself.

    That’s enough of that for the moment! MORE IN THE NEXT POST! Now to :

    Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth:…

    Likewise, JESUS FOR OUR SAKE,

    ALSO RESURRECTED and WAS BORN AGAIN ANEW FROM THE EARTH, HENCE, LIKE ADAM, EMBODIED WITH THE HUMAN RACE ALL AUTHENTIC IN HIM, NOT YET PERFECT, AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

    ….and breathed into his face the breath of life,

    and man became a living soul.

    Jesus, again for our sake, after His resurrection, that same evening at 6 Jewish time,

    also received and integrated with the Holy Ghost!

    AND BECAME A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT!

    Attention please: Now the Holy Ghost, in Jesus’ soul, Luke 23:46  glorified in one substance with Jesus’ flesh body “THE WORD”  THE SON OF MAN, on Jesus’ death  as Jesus Christ;

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, BOTH GOD AND MAN, John 13:31, 32, John 17:2, 10, John4:36-38, Acts 20:28,

    Thus at 6 in the evening, Jesus’ resurrected body, “THE WORD” the Son of Man, and the Holy Ghost in full glory as Jesus Christ,

    both GOD AND MAN on Jesus’ death,

    INTEGRATED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE, AND THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE EMBODIED AUTHENTIC IN JESUS’ RESURRECTED BODY GLORIFIED AND BECAME

    CHILDREN OF GOD IN CHRIST.

    THE TRUE GOD AND FATHER OF HUMANITY IN FLESH AND BLOOD! John17:10,John20:17

    AND WE ARE ON THE RIGHT-HAND OF GOD THE FATHER IN CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF GOD! asserted hereunder:

    Ephsians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus.

    HERE IT COMES ON A PLATE! CHEW, CHEW, and  CHEW!!!!

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE SPIRITUALLY ARE GATHERED AND RETURNED TO THE TRUE ISRAEL!!! CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD!

    ORIGINALLY AS THEY WERE IN GENESIS 1:1. John1:1. 

    ALL HEAVENLY HOSTS CARRIERS OF GOD, IN ONE GLORY THROUGH “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,  ETERNAL LIFE, PRE-EXISTED AS THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IF FULL LIGHT, ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, and ALL FOR HIM, THE TRUE MORNING STAR, UNKNOWN FOR THE HEAVENLY HOSTS DURING THEIR PROBATION PERIOD FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FREE WILL AND LOYALTY TO GOD!

    John: 1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.

    31 And I knew him not,…

    also HINTED OUT hereunder:

    Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:

    for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    ALL GATHERED and RETURNED TO THE TRUE ISRAEL!!!

    29And if ye be Christ’s, THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM’S SEED, and heirs according to the promise.

    ABRAHAM’S SEED:

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN, AND ETERNAL LIFE, THE ETERNAL PHYSICAL IMAGE  AND  CARRIER OF GOD THE FATHER, THE GOD OF ABRAM, PRE-EXISTED,  WHO CONCEIVED ABRAM IN HIS HEART/SOUL, TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY, IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.

    GOD’S ETERNAL SERVANT!

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect, MY SOUL delighteth IN HIM:

    I HAVE GIVEN my spirit upon him,

    I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, ETERNAL LIFE, 1 John 1: 1,2

    THE FIRST-EVER ACT OF GOD :

    LET THEIR BE LIGHT! THE BIG BANG!

    6 I the Lord HAVE CALLED thee in justice,

    FROM THE VERY BEGINNING

    and taken thee by the hand, and PRESERVED YOU. And I HAVE GIVEN thee for a covenant of THE PEOPLE,

    GOD ALL-KNOWING BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

    for a light of the Gentiles:

    LUCIFER’S FALLEN REBELLIOUS ANGELS!

    I repeat; God SPIRITUALLY through Jesus’ death on the cross, GOD gathered both the Jews and the Gentiles and returned them to “ISRAEL” Luke 17:20-37

    ONE DOWN!

    You:  “the Jesus will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

    DT. SPIRITUALLY JESUS ALREADY BUILT THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM!!!

     

    Flesh counts for nothing in God’s own work; THE FACT THAT THE PROCESS OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD OF THE OT; SATANIC through the original sin, is OBSOLETE.

    WON BY JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL  HIS WORK.

     

    All the above in the next post

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    October 26, 2024 at 5:29 pm#946939
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    I feel like your questions are a waste of time.

    Ask me one intelligent question and I’ll give you an answer

    October 26, 2024 at 5:35 pm#946940
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance;

    Sin has a cost and so does breaking man’s law. The cost for breaking some laws is a fine. The cost for sin is death. Jesus Christ didn’t pay a monetary fine, because no amount of money will pay your way out of death. So if someone has to die  then the innocent lamb of God died and paid the price.

    Feel free to pay for your sin if you really want. I trust in the Messiah myself.

    October 31, 2024 at 5:32 pm#946950
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance;

    Sin has a cost and so does breaking man’s law. The cost for breaking some laws is a fine. The cost for sin is death. Jesus Christ didn’t pay a monetary fine, because no amount of money will pay your way put of death. So if someone has to die then the innocent lamb of God died and paid the price.

    Feel free to pay for your sin if you really want.

    I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not. G-d said to Cain “if you do not do right, sin couches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master” (Gen 4:7). G-d says sin is an action and you are the master over it, not the other way around as Paul falsely teaches. Don’t know about you, I’ll listen to God and ignore Paul.

    By doing what G-d said (repent, turn from one’s wickedness, and then HE’LL remember it no more) I’m not “paying” for my own sin, I’m recognizing them and making a choice. I would seem christianity has created an easy way out of sin, sin all you want and leave it to the Jesus to pay the debt for your actions.

    November 1, 2024 at 3:27 am#946951
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Jesus and Paul were “ALL”, about mastering sin, and showed us all how that is accomplished.  It wasn’t them that created the “quick fix”, that was fallen so called “CHRISTIANITY”, that created the “quick fix”.
    Jesus and Paul,     showed us all “the way” to overcome sin, and it’s the exact same way they did, by the exact same power, the power of the Holy Spirit from God the Father, that enables us to “OVERCOME”  OR “MASTER” , sin.

    Your belief of “self empowerment” through “self will”,  to overcome sin is a complete “false teaching”,  Tell me have you completely over came you sins?,  I highly doubt it.  If you haven’t yet then why not?,  seeing you believe you can “self will”. your own way out of sinning?. Let’s see how that works for you in the end.

    THERE is,  “only one way” to overcome sins, and that the exact “way” Jesus , demonstrated to “all”.  There is no other “WAY”.   Jesus did not pay off our sin debt that is true, we all must “REPENT”, BUT, JESUS SHOWED US ALL THE WAY, TO TRUE REPENTANCE AND  LIFE, He is the good and “FAITHFUL” Shepard,  sent from God to guide us, “his sheep”, to eternal life, by showing and “DEMONSTRATING”  to us the way to have that right relationship with God the Father, and it’s no different then his relationship with God is.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

    November 3, 2024 at 5:01 am#946954
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    GeneBalthrop wrote:

    DT…….Jesus and Paul were “ALL”, about mastering sin, and showed us all how that is accomplished. It wasn’t them that created the “quick fix”, that was fallen so called “CHRISTIANITY”, that created the “quick fix”. Jesus and Paul, showed us all “the way” to overcome sin, and it’s the exact same way they did, by the exact same power, the power of the Holy Spirit from God the Father, that enables us to “OVERCOME” OR “MASTER” , sin.

    Wow do we differ in our understanding of sin; it was G-d who said mankind can be the master over sin. I didn’t read anywhere about a spirit figure who would assist in overcoming sin in Gen 4:7. Even in the KJV it says “if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his (sin’s) desire, and thou shalt rule over him (sin).” What part of G-d’s statement do you reject?

    When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of “Knowledge of Good and Evil” their eyes where opened to “good” and “evil” and “freewill” entered the world. They now knew the difference and were faced with choosing between the two.

     

    Your belief of “self empowerment” through “self will”, to overcome sin is a complete “false teaching”, Tell me have you completely over came you sins?, I highly doubt it. If you haven’t yet then why not?, seeing you believe you can “self will”. your own way out of sinning?. Let’s see how that works for you in the end.

    Where did you get “self empowerment” from, I have never spoken of nor have I implied it; please explain how asking for forgiveness, repenting, and turning from the sin is “self empowerment”; seems you are projecting again instead of asking a question to clarify. You seem to be under the spell you still need the Jesus to come before G-d. You will have to find the passage where G-d said you can only come before HIM thru a “secondary source.”

    With sin all are presented with a choice, continue in sin or repent and turn from it? It is G-d alone who forgives sin and when one truly repents and turns from it, HE remembers the sin no more (HIS words). G-d knows mankind is going to sin and HE provided a solution – repent and turn from it; however, man/christianity added the Jesus into the mix; but, according to G-d the Jesus is not required. Christianity also teaches G-d is looking for “perfection” that’s provided thru the Jesus and that couldn’t be more false, because G-d isn’t looking for perfection. Do you expect perfection from your children?

    Jesus said thinking of a sinful act was no different than committing it. I challenge that understanding, because thinking of something sinful isn’t the same as acting on that thought. For example, a person thinking about murder but never does is equal to someone who actually did?!? In a worldly sense, it would be absurd to convict someone of murder for merely thinking it. Explain how thoughts are now equal to action. The Jesus (or the writer of Matthew) created an impossible standard for anyone to live up to. Personally, someone who is tempted by a sin and doesn’t commit it is more admirable than the person who isn’t tempted by the same sin, the tempted faced the challenge of the sin and ruled over it as G-d said we can do.

    You claim to be “filled” with the “spirit”, do you still sin? If so, how; doesn’t the spirit lead you like it lead the Jesus?

    November 3, 2024 at 11:54 am#946955
    Keith
    Participant

    Every mortal pays the wages of sin = death. Only the small amount of little flock that remain on earth during the tribulation, get changed in the twinkling of an eye-never to taste death. As well the great crowd of other sheep who are not of that fold get brought through Gods day of anger( Harmageddon) on earth and may never taste death providing they stand in faith once satan gets loosed for a little while.

    November 3, 2024 at 2:24 pm#946956
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Kieth,

    What you wrote sounds like something from the “Left Behind” book series by LaHaye and Jenkins.

    Back up your claim with scripture.

    November 3, 2024 at 3:38 pm#946957
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not.

    Sin is wrongdoing.

    The LAW is the knowledge of wrongdoing.

    But what about those WITHOUT the law.

    The law is written is our HEARTS.

    The Old Testament took us to the knowledge that we are sinners.

    The New Testament is about grace, thus provides the solution to the problem.


    @DesireTruth    , what you are proposing is that God should have left humanity in sin with no way out.

    God showed us that he is the Judge.

    Now he shows us that he is the Father of grace.

    To appreciate something truly, it needs to be hard earned.

    Otherwise, your attitude is one of indifference. Easy come easy go.

    November 3, 2024 at 3:46 pm#946958
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What does Jonah have to do with these passages? I’m speaking of the writer of Matthew taking Hosea out of context and somehow applying it to the Jesus when the context is explicitly a reference to Israel.

    Lol, you just proved my point. No point in explaining it. You are not ready.

    November 4, 2024 at 3:24 am#946962
    Keith
    Participant

    Prov 2:21-22 assures some are not leaving the earth. Matt 24:22= Unless those days( trib and Gods day of anger) were cut short no flesh would be saved. The great crowd will not leave the earth, they will reside upon it forever-Psalm 37:11,29–Matt 5:5)

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