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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • September 17, 2024 at 2:14 am#946817
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT,  you said…”HE murdered his son for the “transgressions of others”, like a bull on an altar? On what plane does that make sense to you? There is so much wrong in what you said. Isn’t murder, murder and called a sin? Are you saying God can sin? Still waiting for when God changed and said the innocent can be responsible for the actions of the guilty”.

    Me….GOD NEVER MURDERED HIS son Jesus,  that decision was always up to Jesus,  But God did want or “willed” for him to have enough “FAITH”  in him,  to offer his life as a sacrifice, for, (because of), the sins of the world.  Jesus said clearly himself he had the power to lay down his body and to restore it again,  he also said that he could call down 12 legions of angels to come to his aid if he wanted to.  What Jesus did was to “DEMONSTRATE ” to us all, his “FAITH” in God the father,  Just as Abraham demonstrated his “FAITH” IN God,  by willing to offer up his son in obedience to the command or “WILL” , of God.

    There was no murder ever committed by God, it was all a voluntary  sacrifice on Jesus’ part. That is why he is “exalted” above every creature in heaven and earth, because his “FAITH” in God the Father caused him to pored out his “SOUL” unto death.

    Jesus proved his commitment to the “Will” of God, by his “Faith”,  the same thing is required of all of GOD’S,  “faithful” children. We must all come to put God the Fathers “WILL” ahead of our “WILLS”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

     

     

    September 17, 2024 at 5:03 am#946818
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Can I ask why you decided to jump to a question I asked Jodi verses answering the questions I asked you to clarify in our last discussion concerning the “millennial reign”? For your memory enjoyment:

    Why is God “testing” everyone who is already “saved”? The first “saving” wasn’t an actual “saving”; wasn’t it good enough?

    Aren’t those who are left on earth spared from the fiery pit because they turned to the Jesus?

    What about those who were “raptured away”, are they exempt from this testing and why?

    Was their “saving” more superior to those who came to the Jesus after the “rapture”?

    Why would people after a 1000 years of utopia with God suddenly begin rejecting HIM and start sinning again?

    So what happens to those who fail this “test”, will they also be cast into the Lake of Fire?

    Explain how this aligns with the Tanakh when God is the one who said HE doesn’t take pleasure in the death of anyone AND goes on to tell all how they can live.

     

    You: There was no murder ever committed by God, it was all a voluntary sacrifice on Jesus’ part.

    Me: But was it really the Jesus’ “voluntary” choice???

    1 Peter 1:19-20 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Peter and John seem to say this was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Since the Jesus’ death was predetermined from before creation, explain what “choice” did the Jesus messiah have?

    September 18, 2024 at 2:00 am#946820
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Jodi would have answered you the same way, why?, because she has the “SPIRIT” of God abiding “in” her.  You on the other hand don’t, and that why you flip flop around our responses by simply asking different questions every time we “answer” your questions. I Answered your question to Jodi, and instead of answering the scriptures I gave you, you simply ignore them and shift to something else, that I can show you doesn’t change a thing I have posted. You simply bait and switch every subject we answer of yours.
    You remind me of the old adage, “you can’t catch a rabbit in a bier patch”, But in your case it would be a snake.

    Every question you ask in your last post I and can and did answer in the posts,  “for those who have eyes to see”.   But in you case that doesn’t seem to apply, why is that? Is it because you have rejected the whole,  New Testament, and even much of what is written in the Old Testament   It appears ?, IMO,   There can never be an agreement  with you, you simply “bait and switch”,  and by that,  skirt around everything , dialoging with you is “futile”.  

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

    September 18, 2024 at 6:52 am#946821
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: I Answered your question to Jodi, and instead of answering the scriptures I gave you, you simply ignore them and shift to something else

    Me: You provided zero scriptures in your response to the Jodi question. AND you will notice in my response to you I quoted exactly what you said and responded to YOUR statement the Jesus “voluntarily sacrificed” himself. I gave you two passages that say the Jesus couldn’t of done it of his freewill because it was “predestined” to happen from the creation. What did I shift?!?!? The reality is you have mastered the tactic of shifting away from the topic at hand. By the way you answered none of my questioned concerning the millennial reign as they are what we call “follow up” questions and are done to seek further clarification, which you avoided.

     

    You: Every question you ask in your last post I and can and did answer in the posts, “for those who have eyes to see”.

    Me: Sorry, but you haven’t provided a single scripture to support your millennial story. My eyes are open, are yours?

     

    You: you have rejected the whole, New Testament, and even much of what is written in the Old Testament It appears ?, IMO

    Me: Of course I’ve rejected the NT; it’s not the word of God. No matter how many times it repeated the NT is the “inspired word of God” doesn’t make it so. How can the NT be the “inspired word of God” when every religion argues about what it says? You falsely state I’ve rejected much of the Tanakh; let me clarify, I’ve rejected christianity’s interpretations of the Tanakh, I have rejected christianity’s twisting of the Tanakh, I have rejected christianity’s misquoting of the Tanakh, and I’ve rejected the corruption christianity has inserted into the Tanakh. The Tanakh IS God’s word…period!

    The reality Gene, you’re running from answering the questions…which actually make sense. Pastors did it too when I began asking the “wrong” questions, and they’re “educated” in religion; so I shouldn’t fault you because you’re only learning from them. But it does solidify you believe what you’ve been told to believe and are unwilling to challenge the doctrines of religious beliefs and verify whether or not what you’re told is truth or not.

    You claim the Jesus will return by 2032 (it did have a good laugh); many people throughout history have tried predicting the Jesus’ return and every single one has been wrong; what makes you believe you are right? I’m here until 11:59pm December 31, 2032 just so I can ask where is your Jesus?

    You really should stop closing with “Peace and love to you and yours”; because they’re empty words you don’t really mean. Since I have walked away from christianity you have shown me only contempt, not peace or love.

    September 19, 2024 at 2:21 am#946822
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Your lack of knowledge of the New Testament as well as the old is obvious to me. So let me then quote the scriptures,  you say I didn’t quote, about Jesus sacrificing himself ok.

    JOHN 10: 17-18…..> “therefore does my Father love me, because, I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, that I might take it again”.

    verse 18…>.  “No man takes it from me, but I lay it down “OF MYSELF” , I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again, this commandment have I received “from my FATHER”. 

    NEED MORE, I can produce them if you wan’t, so tell us where did I or anyone here say God  “MURDERED” JESUS. To say that is simply “a LIE”.

    DT, I have not been a member of any church for over 60 years now, I have read and studied the scriptures myself and the Spirit I received from God the Father brings them into my mind the “spirit of truth” tells me when I hear the truth or when I hear a lie. That’s how I know you are not of the truth.
    But  just as I said,  you will simply ignore the truth or divert or just skirt around it. Face it DT you’re not interested in   “The truth” ,  but your own self made form of religion, just as the Jew’s of Jesus’ day were.   sad! Repent!

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

    September 19, 2024 at 4:24 pm#946823
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: where did I or anyone here say God “MURDERED” JESUS. To say that is simply “a LIE”.

    Me: Why are you shooting the messenger? If you are going to inject yourself into a conversation, please start at the beginning.

    My question to Jodi was because of her statement of “God putting to death one man for the transgressions of others.” AGAIN, A QUESTION WAS ASKED FOR CLARITY!!!!! And you chose to get offended and go into attack mode.

    Thank you for actually citing a passage, now we are both on the same page of understanding and all confusion is eliminated. HOWEVER, my response to you doesn’t change; both Peter and John make the claim the Jesus’ death was predetermined from creation.

    1 Peter 1:19-20 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    How can the Jesus “freely” lay down his life when it was preordained from the beginning of time for him to do so? What choice did he really have? Was he going to defy the spirit that was in him?

    You: I have read and studied the scriptures myself and the Spirit I received from God the Father brings them into my mind the “spirit of truth” tells me when I hear the truth or when I hear a lie.

    Me: Let’s test your “truth meter” when Paul says in Rom 9:23-26:

    23 And he did so in order that he could make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he also says in Hosea, “I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’and those who were not loved, ‘Loved.’ 26 And it will be in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ”

    According to Paul the gentiles will also be call Gods’ people, not just the Jews. Paul takes the first part from from Hosea 2:23:

    23 I will sow her for myself in the land; I will have pity on Lo-ruhama; I will say to Lo-ammi, “You are my people,”and he himself will say, “you are my God.”

    and the second part from Hosea 1:10:

    10 However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it will be said to them, “You are children of the living God!”

    Hosea was the prophet to the Northern Kingdom and a contemporary of Isaiah in the Southern; God told him to marry a prostitute and Hosea was to name the children after what God was going to do to the Northern Kingdom. Bore to him was a daughter and son, Lo-ruhama “not pitied” and Lo-ammi “not my people” respectively.

    Paul says “I will call those who were not my people” is a reference to include the gentiles; but God says it’s the Northern Kingdom. Paul also changes “pitied” to “loved”; “love” wasn’t the name given.

    So did Paul twist God’s word to make it say what it was never intended to or was Paul interpreting the Hosea passages as it was intended? If he did interpret them correctly, can you explain how a reference to Israel could/would be a reference to gentiles? If Paul didn’t interpret the passage correctly, that makes him a liar. What does the “spirit” tell you? Elaborate! Don’t hold back, because I need to know what the truth is.

    September 20, 2024 at 2:17 am#946824
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…….>”How can the Jesus “freely” lay down his life when it was preordained from the beginning of time for him to do so? What choice did he really have? Was he going to defy the spirit that was in him?”

    You seem to lack understanding of the power of God WORKING IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE, with your reasoning then, HOW can “anything” be “preordained” , what is prophesy if not a set of preordained events, carried out by the power of God?  When scripture  said, “he knows the end from the beginning”,   what does that mean to you?  Sure God knew from the beginning what he had planned and what Jesus would do, being lead by his  Sprit to put his complete “Faith in God’s, Will for him.  God knew what the man Jesus would do before he ever came into existence, and not only that but what everyone of us do and will do, why is that so hard for you to understand?  Is God not “all knowing”? 
    Does scripture not say,  “for he works “IN” us both to Will and do of “HIS” good pleasure?”  (Cause and effect)  everything works that way, God caused everything to come into existence, he “causes” those he chooses to walk in his ways,  by the spirit he puts “in” them.

    As far as God calling “his people” goes, “all people are God’s people, rather Jew or Gentiles”. All the earth and everything in it belongs to him and he does with it as he so chooses.  That was Paul’s overall point,  and he was completely right.  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

    September 20, 2024 at 3:16 am#946825
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I had just a moment so I decided to check in an see what was the latest on here. I saw your post to Gene and was going to respond to, “How can the Jesus “freely” lay down his life when it was preordained from the beginning of time for him to do so? What choice did he really have? Was he going to defy the spirit that was in him?”, but then saw that Gene responded as I would have.

    I will say this, are we not creatures subjected to INFLUENCE and act upon those influences? 1. don’t our behaviors/actions come from the thoughts of our imaginations, just as scriptures tell us? 2. does our flesh not ask us to serve it in order to survive and is a strong influence over our actions, just as scriptures tell us? Are we also not influenced by others as well as circumstances that our out of our control? We are indeed creatures subjected to influence and our One True God the Father IS THE MOST POWERFUL INFLUENCER FAR ABOVE all things, so much so that which He wills comes to fruition, can never be held back. Our God gives mercy upon mankind otherwise, we’d all be brute beasts. Jesus overcame through God’s Spirit dwelling in him, it was a more powerful influence over him than all else and why our hope is in having God’s Spirit also lead us in all the ways we should go.

    DT, what would you say could be considered the most powerful influence over us, outside of God’s power? The fear of death? Does not the fear of death have us all in bondage to serve the flesh in order to live? But what is the ultimate truth? We must serve God in order to obtain eternal life.  When Jesus went to the cross unto his death this power was destroyed and it demonstrated the power of influence of God’s Spirit upon him.  Jesus served God above his own will that is aroused by weak mortal flesh, even as he was mocked, spit on, beat and nailed to the cross. The Spirit in him was a calling to unrelenting faith to which he demonstrated for us all on the cross. We are told that the man Jesus was perfected by that which he suffered, it was an ultimate test of His faith in God and as said ultimate demonstration to the power of the works of God’s Spirit in man. Jesus believed that God would indeed raise him from the dead and make him a firstborn of many. Jesus’s reward was to no longer have a body that had to serve the flesh in order to survive, no longer have a body that could feel hunger and pain and could die, he was set free of that weak mortal flesh and was given an immortal body free to serve God alone. God’s punishment to Adam and Eve that thus fell upon all of mankind was necessary, necessary in order for mankind to come to the knowledge that our Creator is the Source, source to wisdom and truth, righteousness and life everlasting. In our weakness God could make His powers known.

    September 21, 2024 at 1:13 am#946826
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……“AMEN” to that.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    September 21, 2024 at 4:02 pm#946827
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: with your reasoning then, HOW can “anything” be “preordained”

    Me: This make no sense, you seem to be missing a word or two or misspoke. I never suggested “nothing” couldn’t be preordained; I quoted Peter and John saying the Jesus’ death WAS preordained/foreordained. Foreordained means an inevitable, predestined, or established beforehand event. If the Jesus’ death was foreordained from creation, the Jesus was predestined to die at a particular point in history determined by God; just because God knows it’s going to take place is irrelevant as God know everything before it happens and controls when and what will take place (Isa 46:9-11, Isa 14:24, 27). What is relevant is whether or not the Jesus had any control over his death. According to aforementioned passages, the answer is no. Can God’s plans be thwarted, not according to Job 42:2; if the plan from creation was to have the Jesus die, how could he or anyone have changed it, how could the Jesus say he freely laid his life down when he had no control over the event?

     

    You: As far as God calling “his people” goes, “all people are God’s people, rather Jew or Gentiles”. All the earth and everything in it belongs to him and he does with it as he so chooses. That was Paul’s overall point, and he was completely right. IMO

    Me: Of course all of creation belongs to God, that’s not what’s in question; Paul says and teaches there isn’t a difference with whom God choses. Except who has God chosen and calls HIS people?

    Exo 19:5-6 you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

    Duet 7:6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

    Duet 14:2 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

    God chose the Israelite’s as a “treasured possession” out of ALL PEOPLE for what purpose – “to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” When did God change HIS mind and include all mankind as HIS “treasured possession”? Does that mean God has rejected all none Jews and are they forbidden from worshiping God? Absolutely NOT!! Still haven’t looked into Noahide (what God expects of the rest of the world) have you.

    So Paul quoting Hosea and includes the Gentile as being Lo-rahama (not pitied) and Lo-ammi (not my people) is a twisting of God’s words; all you have to do is read the book of Hosea to verify Paul’s misapplication of them; God was speaking to the Northern Kingdom, not the entire world as Paul says. This didn’t mean God completely rejected Israel, because HE later states one day HE will have pity on them and will call them HIS people again AND they will call HIM their God again. Nowhere does it speak of or to all mankind. How do you still think Paul isn’t an enemy of God’s?!?! Verify every quote Paul takes from the Tanakh and see if it’s being used in the original context or if he’s adding or taking away from it.

    Is it stubbornness or fear that prevents you from seeing God’s truth?

    In my last post to you I asked “what does the spirit tell you” and you give me your opinion; apparently the “spirit” didn’t tell you anything; didn’t give you any insights into Paul’s words!??! I don’t want opinions, I want facts.

    September 22, 2024 at 10:05 am#946828
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: What is relevant is whether or not the Jesus had any control over his death. According to aforementioned passages, the answer is no. Can God’s plans be thwarted, not according to Job 42:2; if the plan from creation was to have the Jesus die, how could he or anyone have changed it, how could the Jesus say he freely laid his life down when he had no control over the event?

    ME: I hope you will read my last post. Jesus was not a puppet. Jesus went to the cross unto his death out of his love for mankind, out of his love and faith in God. This love and this faith came through the works of God’s Spirit in him. God’s Spirit is a more powerful influence over the mind of man than all other influences. Jesus received the Spirit not by measure and was able to overcome the world and all it’s influences, even the power of weak mortal flesh.  Think about this for a moment. Is not the mind of man gullible? Has not history shown that the mind of man can be easily manipulated and brainwashed to follow falsehoods? You think that the mind of man in all it’s foolishness and deceptions is a more powerful influence over the fruits of God’s Spirit? God knew Jesus would not fail because God knows that the power of His Spirit is able to influence a mind of man making it into that of a spiritual one. 

    YOU: God chose the Israelite’s as a “treasured possession” out of ALL PEOPLE for what purpose – “to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” When did God change HIS mind and include all mankind as HIS “treasured possession”? Does that mean God has rejected all none Jews and are they forbidden from worshiping God? Absolutely NOT!! Still haven’t looked into Noahide (what God expects of the rest of the world) have you.

    ME: Read what the OT and the NT teaches, seems like you are missing a lot, for Gentiles are included in God’s promises but in no way does this inclusion change God’s specific promises to Israel.

    Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    49:66 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

    The Gentiles are included in the promises of God of salvation and a new earth filled with peace according to the OT.

    I have never read anything from the NT that tells us that Israel is no longer God’s “treasured possession”, that Israel no longer becomes His chosen people.

    The NT aligns with the OT teaching us that Jesus will reign over David’s throne, that he will restore again the kingdom of Israel, that he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever. Just because Gentiles also receive salvation and are promised to live on an earth filled with peace, how do you turn and equate this to Israel no longer being God’s “treasured possession”? Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and thus of Israel and he is going to restore his people, God’s chosen people. All the people of all the tribes are gathered back to Israel and Jesus will sit on his father David’s throne in Jerusalem ruling over the restored kingdom of Israel, where all the earth is under this kingdom as well.

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    YOU: Paul also changes “pitied” to “loved”; “love” wasn’t the name given.

    ME: 

    Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    mercy- raw-kham‘

    1. to love, love deeply, have mercy, be compassionate, have tender affection, have compassion.

    Paul rendered the Hebrew word  using “love” 100% correctly. 

    YOU: According to Paul the gentiles will also be call Gods’ people, not just the Jews

    Paul says “I will call those who were not my people” is a reference to include the gentiles; but God says it’s the Northern Kingdom.

    ME: 

    Numbers 15:15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the LORD:

    Isaiah 56
    Salvation for Others
    1 This is what the LORD says: “Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
    2 Blessed is the one who does this— the person who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps their hands from doing any evil.”
    3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely exclude me from his people.” And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.”
    4 For this is what the LORD says: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant—
    5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.
    6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the  minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
    7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
    8 The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: “I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered.”

    God promising Gentiles/foreigners salvation and a place on earth in God’s peaceful kingdom not only is God giving them mercy/love but it is also God making them who were not His people His people.

    “I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God”. According to you, other people, who were not God’s people, cannot possibly become God’s people, only people of the Northern kingdom can become God’s people, wow! This is your position to prove Paul is a liar? by making our God into a God who does not give mercy and extend making other people into His people. That’s just crazy.

    Paul quoted Hosea because Paul knows that this passage is a true saying that applies to people who “are not God’s people”, not just to a very small minority of people who were not God’s people. For you to try and force that this true saying can ONLY apply to SOME people who are not God’s people, is absurd. Paul knows that this is a true saying unto “people who are not God’s people” because it directly aligns with God’s word from the prophet Isaiah regarding Gentiles and he also of course knows it’s God’s word because he himself was ordained of God to speak God’s word to the Gentiles.

     

     

    September 22, 2024 at 12:34 pm#946829
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish and has nothing to do with tribal association. We can say the Jesus’ mother is Jewish, thus making him Jewish. The contention is his daddy, because the father is who determines tribal association ( Numbers 1:2). So being Jewish doesn’t mean your from the tribe of Judah. Guess again.

    YOU: He must be Jewish
    “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

    ME: Go do some research on the word Jew, you really think that the word Jew doesn’t come out from the word JU-DAH one from that tribe? Seems that you have gotten lost from tying this into your original point where the Messiah must be Jewish and you site Deut 17:15 as some sort of proof.

    Deut 17:15 14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

    God is speaking to the people of Israel, the 12 tribes. Where in this passage do you see that God is saying the Messiah must be Jewish by his mother? Please explain. I guess it would have been better if I had just focused first on the scripture you provided. I think it’s a good point to mention that after God spoke these words about Israel’s king, their first and second kings were of the tribe of Benjamin which further makes your assertion as to what this scripture is saying completely nuts.

    You say, “guess again”, what on earth are you talking about? The fact of the matter is that I believe NT scripture that shows that Mary was of the tribe of JU-dah and thus indeed would be considered Jewish and you said, “Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish” and your original post said that Jesus must be a Jew. By your own words, Jesus then meets what you have laid out as an OT criteria.

    YOU:  NO, I meant IMPROVABLE; because you cannot prove “in vitro” fertilization is what happened. This is a creation of your mind and is the most “logical” solution for you because we cannot have God impregnating mortal women because that’s what happened in the pagan religions of the day (Roman and Greek).

    You go on to quote Is 7:14 as proof; yet, when one reads this chapter and the next, it has nothing to do with any messianic prophecy.

    ME: You seem to have left out that my proof begins with how Matthew directly tells us that he is giving us the genetic line of Jesus to show how he is a genetic son of Abraham and David, where that genetic line that connects Jesus to Abraham and David, according to Matthew, is through Joseph, who was betrothed to Mary. Now if there were no further scriptures given about the conception of Jesus what is common sense? That Joseph and Mary would have come together so that Jesus could be exactly what the scripture say, a genetic son of Abraham and David through Joseph.  But it turns out that there is more scripture about Jesus’s conception, do those details change at all the truth given in the prior scriptures? NO. No matter how Jesus is conceived exactly, we are given that he is a genetic son of Abraham and David through Joseph.  You and others just want to flat out ignore this fact directly provided from Matthew, you because you want to discredit Jesus as the Messiah and others because they want to make Jesus into a false god and some sort of hybrid one of a kind being. According to Matthew God didn’t impregnate Mary like that of a pagan god of mythology and impregnate her with His seed to create another god, some sort of hybrid being. God performed a miracle, where without Joseph and Mary coming together, He made Jesus a bio son of Joseph through the power of His Spirit,  making him as Matthew tells us, a bio son of Abraham and David through Joseph.

     

    September 22, 2024 at 2:12 pm#946830
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,
    You: Our God gives mercy upon mankind otherwise, we’d all be brute beasts.

    Me: Aren’t we created in the image of God? If we ignore God’s natural law of the “knowledge of good an evil”, we can become wicked. To call us beasts, is a stretch

    You: our hope is in having God’s Spirit also lead us in all the ways we should go.

    Me: You have to “hope” to have God’s spirit lead you; aren’t you and every other christain “filled with the spirit”? Can you explain why don’t live as the Jesus did if you are “filled” with the spirit? The Jesus was sinless, why aren’t you? To say he was filled “without measure”, sounds like a selfish God who gives a “teaser” of what/who the spirit is to the followers of Jesus. Wouldn’t God want everyone to be like his son…perfected?

    You: what would you say could be considered the most powerful influence over us…fear of death

    Me: Death is an example; fear is the most powerful influencer. Fear can get you to do most anything you wouldn’t normally do. Governments across the world just got most people to do their bidding, put masks on the healthy, distance yourself from others, stay at home, don’t go to work or school, and get filled with an untested serum, that none of the manufacturers know what the side effects are, or loose your job. Fear is also good because it creates a boundary between doing something stupid or not or prevents one from putting themselves in harms way. Fear is a natural thing; God put it into all of us.

    You: But what is the ultimate truth? We must serve God in order to obtain eternal life.

    Me: What do you do to “serve God”? It’s a serious question, what does your service to God look like in your daily life?

    You: When Jesus went to the cross unto his death this power was destroyed and it demonstrated the power of influence of God’s Spirit upon him. Jesus served God above his own will that is aroused by weak mortal flesh, even as he was mocked, spit on, beat and nailed to the cross. The Spirit in him was a calling to unrelenting faith to which he demonstrated for us all on the cross. We are told that the man Jesus was perfected by that which he suffered, it was an ultimate test of His faith in God and as said ultimate demonstration to the power of the works of God’s Spirit in man. Jesus believed that God would indeed raise him from the dead and make him a firstborn of many. Jesus’s reward was to no longer have a body that had to serve the flesh in order to survive, no longer have a body that could feel hunger and pain and could die, he was set free of that weak mortal flesh and was given an immortal body free to serve God alone. God’s punishment to Adam and Eve that thus fell upon all of mankind was necessary, necessary in order for mankind to come to the knowledge that our Creator is the Source, source to wisdom and truth, righteousness and life everlasting. In our weakness God could make His powers known.

    Me: Now provide scripture to back up your sermon.

    September 22, 2024 at 2:40 pm#946831
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Me: “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Not sure if you know this but the nation of Israel was fractured into two kingdoms, the northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern (Judah). Please provide a NT passage that states the Jesus will gather the Israelite’s back to their land.

    ME: Yes, I am quite aware of Israel being fractured into two kingdoms, what’s your point?

    You say, “provide passage that states”, I thought we were past this. Just as everything said in the NT does not need to be found in the OT, everything spoken in the OT doesn’t need to be found in the NT.  Does everything said by Moses need to be said also by Isaiah in order for you to believe in Isaiah? Does everything said by Isaiah also need to have been spoken by Moses for you to believe in Moses? NO, what is needed is to have no contradictions.

    What we are given in the NT does indeed align with the OT, having no contradiction, which I provided in my previous post,

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Jesus would reign over the house of Jacob/Israel and Jesus would restore again the kingdom to Israel at a time that the Father has appointed. It’s not logical to you that in order to have a kingdom for Israel filled with the house of Israelites it would take the people of Israel to be present, which would mean that they would need to be gathered to Israel in order for that to occur?

    September 22, 2024 at 5:26 pm#946832
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    ME: Our God gives mercy upon mankind otherwise, we’d all be brute beasts.

    YOU: Aren’t we created in the image of God? If we ignore God’s natural law of the “knowledge of good an evil”, we can become wicked. To call us beasts, is a stretch

    ME: Oh good, we are back to one of my favorite topics!

    Man is likened to beasts throughout the OT, not only the NT so I am not sure why you are saying this is a stretch.

    Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

    Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

    Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

    Psalms 58:44 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

    Psalms 140:33 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders’ poison is under their lips. Selah.

    Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

    This seems to align well with, Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    This aligns with,

    Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Jeremiah 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

    Jeremiah 11:88 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.

    Jeremiah 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

    Jeremiah 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

    Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

    Jeremiah 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

    Proverbs 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

    Think about it for a minute, eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, the penalty was that they would die and to be carnally minded is death. Adam and Eve brought forth death because they were carnally minded. Peter was called by Jesus Satan, where Jesus rebuked him for he had in mind the things of men and not God, he too was being carnally minded. The carnal mind of man causes deceit, where a man’s tongue is thus like the poison of a serpent.

    Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    Eccl 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    It takes God’s instruction and His Spirit living in us to become not carnally minded and become spiritually minded unto life and peace, otherwise we are eternally bound to the dust.

     

    September 23, 2024 at 12:36 am#946833
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi, amen to that also.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……..gene

    September 23, 2024 at 12:36 am#946834
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……If you can’t tell that the Old Testament and the New Testament agree with each other you’re not even close to understanding scriptures.  Your efforts of trying to divide them  and saying they disagree with each other is wrong, There are some mistranslations in both texts, but  by far,  they agree with each other, IMO.
    Jesus said he did not come to destroy the (books). Of the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them.

    Nothing wrong with being a critical thinker, I believe I am a critical thinker also, I weigh most everything I hear and read,  by the Spirit God has given me,  because the “spirit of truth” gives us the power to discern the truth from a lie when we read or hear it.

    Your evil work of trying to say the old and new testaments disagree with each other, only shows  me what spirit is working in you, and trust me, it is not the Spirit of God, that causing you to think like that DT, IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

    September 23, 2024 at 4:29 am#946835
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning DT,

    Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    The below directly tells us in what way does God forgive their iniquities, 

    Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Who is this righteous servant that fulfills God’s Covenant, where therein iniquities are forgiven? 

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house…9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof…keep reading the chapter and go onto chapter 43…:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

    Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    We are given-

    There is a New Covenant

    This Covenant includes God forgiving sins of the people and remembering them no more

    God declares that a righteous servant is given for a Covenant of the people

    A righteous servant dies for the forgiveness of the people’s sins, which thus this righteous servant is fulfilling the Covenant God promised of forgiving sins and remembering them no more.

    Jesus is this righteous servant who died for the forgiveness of sins fulfilling part of God’s promised Covenant. Jesus also has been ordained to fulfill the other part of this Covenant, to which God had first fulfilled in Jesus. God puts His law in their inward parts, and writes them in their hearts and He will be their God, and they shall be His people. God does this through putting His Spirit within them, causing them to walk in all His ways. When Jesus returns he will judge the people and reward God’s faithful with the Spirit, completing the fulfillment of God’s Covenant.

    DT, please explain how Jeremiah 31 in no way relates to Isaiah 53. Please explain how in no way is the righteous servant of Isaiah 42 not the same righteous servant of Isaiah 53. 

    September 25, 2024 at 2:06 am#946837
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In the following “You” being myself and the “Me” being yourself from post #946829:

    YOU: Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish and has nothing to do with tribal association. We can say the Jesus’ mother is Jewish, thus making him Jewish. The contention is his daddy, because the father is who determines tribal association ( Numbers 1:2). So being Jewish doesn’t mean your from the tribe of Judah. Guess again.

    YOU: He must be Jewish

    “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

    ME: Go do some research on the word Jew, you really think that the word Jew doesn’t come out from the word JU-DAH one from that tribe? Seems that you have gotten lost from tying this into your original point where the Messiah must be Jewish and you site Deut 17:15 as some sort of proof.

    Deut 17:15 14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

    God is speaking to the people of Israel, the 12 tribes. Where in this passage do you see that God is saying the Messiah must be Jewish by his mother? Please explain. I guess it would have been better if I had just focused first on the scripture you provided. I think it’s a good point to mention that after God spoke these words about Israel’s king, their first and second kings were of the tribe of Benjamin which further makes your assertion as to what this scripture is saying completely nuts.

    You say, “guess again”, what on earth are you talking about? The fact of the matter is that I believe NT scripture that shows that Mary was of the tribe of JU-dah and thus indeed would be considered Jewish and you said, “Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish” and your original post said that Jesus must be a Jew. By your own words, Jesus then meets what you have laid out as an OT criteria.

    In this dialog the origins of how a name is formed is irrelevant, what is relevant is who this name represents, and it represent the Jewish nation, the nation of Isreal and NOT a single tribe. Are you saying when Paul stated there was no difference between Jew and Gentile only referred to the tribe of Judah, what about the other eleven? Of course not, he was referring to the Jewish people as a whole. The fact you fail to understand the simple words spoken in Deut 17:15 is truly stunning! this king must be OF Israel and not a foreigner; you even quoted that part. Isn’t the Messiah to be king and rule over Israel? So this Messiah king MUST be Jewish as my simple statement reads.

    Moving thru this you asked “Where in this passage do you see that God is saying the Messiah must be Jewish by his mother?” You may want to read Ezra 9,10; the men sent their wives AND children away because they broke God’s command of marrying a foreigner. If the children are Jewish because of the father, why were they also sent away? It’s from here the Jews get their “Jewishness” is maternal.

    You final statement is a whopper!! “their first and second kings were of the tribe of Benjamin which further makes your assertion as to what this scripture is saying completely nuts.” There first king was Saul from the tribe of Benjamin; there second king was David from the tribe of Judah and that is where it has remained to fulfill Jacob’s prophecy. Who’s nuts!?!? The passage I quoted explicitly states “of your brethren”; not from a specific tribe, but one from the Israelite nation.

    Your final paragraph makes me speechless thinking you somehow caught me being contradictory; did you miss when I said “We can say the Jesus’ mother is Jewish, thus making him Jewish.” I TOLD YOU THE JESUS WAS JEWISH BECAUSE HIS MOTHER WAS JEWISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    September 25, 2024 at 2:09 am#946838
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In the following “You” being myself and the “Me” being yourself continued from post #946829:

    YOU: NO, I meant IMPROVABLE; because you cannot prove “in vitro” fertilization is what happened. This is a creation of your mind and is the most “logical” solution for you because we cannot have God impregnating mortal women because that’s what happened in the pagan religions of the day (Roman and Greek).

    You go on to quote Is 7:14 as proof; yet, when one reads this chapter and the next, it has nothing to do with any messianic prophecy.

    ME: You seem to have left out that my proof begins with how Matthew directly tells us that he is giving us the genetic line of Jesus to show how he is a genetic son of Abraham and David, where that genetic line that connects Jesus to Abraham and David, according to Matthew, is through Joseph, who was betrothed to Mary. Now if there were no further scriptures given about the conception of Jesus what is common sense? That Joseph and Mary would have come together so that Jesus could be exactly what the scripture say, a genetic son of Abraham and David through Joseph. But it turns out that there is more scripture about Jesus’s conception, do those details change at all the truth given in the prior scriptures? NO No matter how Jesus is conceived exactly, we are given that he is a genetic son of Abraham and David through Joseph. You and others just want to flat out ignore this fact directly provided from Matthew, you because you want to discredit Jesus as the Messiah and others because they want to make Jesus into a false god and some sort of hybrid one of a kind being. According to Matthew God didn’t impregnate Mary like that of a pagan god of mythology and impregnate her with His seed to create another god, some sort of hybrid being. God performed a miracle, where without Joseph and Mary coming together, He made Jesus a bio son of Joseph through the power of His Spirit, making him as Matthew tells us, a bio son of Abraham and David through Joseph.

    Were do I begin? Your genealogical “proof” isn’t “proof” as it falls flat when Jechoniah was added into the line since his kingship was removed by God and there are no passages that state he was ever restored as a king (prediction: your entire focus in a response); so could any of his descendants have been inline to become king?

    You go on to say “You and others just want to flat out ignore this fact directly provided from Matthew.” Who are the “others” and what “fact” of the lineage account am I ignoring? What’s being ignored is Jechoniah’s kingship was revoked and a revoked kingship means their descendants can’t be king either. Besides, how can I or anyone trust what the writer of Matthew says when they misuse Isa 7:14; do you trust those who distorts the truth?

    Continuing on, you talk about Jesus’s conception and you “believe” the spirit took the biological “seed” from Joseph and planted it in Mary to impregnate her to connect the Jesus back to David, because Joseph “planting” his seed himself wouldn’t have been good enough? God had to have a “miraculously conception” and couldn’t wait a few more months for the two to come together? Why would God have to have the Jesus conceived supernaturally verses letting the two of them come together and make a baby the “old fashion” way? What would the significance of the “virgin” be? We can’t say purity, because we have “original sin” and no one is “righteous”, not one according to Paul.

    Reading Isa 7:14 “Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.”

    To whom has this sign been given? The answer is found in verse 10, King Ahaz.

    “The young woman is with child.” So this woman is pregnant and standing with King Ahaz and Isaiah.

    “she shall call his name Immanuel.” When was the Jesus ever called “Immanuel”; the angel told Mary to name the child “the Jesus.”

    This verse speaks in their time and is a prophecy given to King Ahaz; why would Ahaz care about an event that is happening 700 years into the future when he’s about to be invaded. The fact the writer of Matthew hijacks this verse to say what it was never intended to say, makes the writer of Matthew a liar. What is sad is the modern church doubles down on the “virgin birth” lie (especially at Christmas) and calls it truth. Need more proof the writer lied, look at chapter 2:15 “out of Egypt I called my son”; this comes from Hosea 11:1 and explicitly states the “son” is Israel and not a “messianic figure” being called out of Egypt. Exo 4:22 further confirms Israel is God’s son AND HIS firstborn. Please explain how these passages from the Tanakh and their usage in the NT aligns!

    Did you ever look up the difference for the Hebrew words “almah” and “betulah”?

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