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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 12, 2023 at 2:41 am#943070
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..Welcome to my and Jodi’s world,  maybe you can do a better job then we have,    I have come to see  over many years, that, “unless the LORD builds the house the weary builders (us) build in vain “.   And also to them that have more shall be given, and them that have not,  even what they think they have (shall be) taken away  time.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    April 12, 2023 at 4:37 am#943071
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You take off on a long dissertation on the Talmud and Pharisees and miss what I actually said. The quoting was only to show what the Jews believe.

    Please explain Deut 18:15,18 and how we have a preexistent Christ.

    Look up Hellenism, this thinking was infiltrating the early church.

    April 12, 2023 at 6:23 am#943073
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You take off on a long dissertation on the Talmud and Pharisees and miss what I actually said. The quoting was only to show what the Jews believe.

    Please explain Deut 18:15,18 and how we have a preexistent Christ. Look up Hellenism, this thinking was infiltrating the early church. 

    Me

    Why rely on the Talmud and not on ALL THE SCRIPTURES?

    IS PAUL NOT RELIABLE?

    DOES IT NOT HAVE THE MIND OF GOD?

    TALKING ABOUT CHRIST WITHOUT TAKING ACCOUNT OF THE APOSTLES CAN ONLY LEAD US INTO THE WALL?

    I HAVE A QUESTION, DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE OR JUST A PART?

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:(2 Tim.3:16)

    ……

    Début.18:15,18 DO NOT contradict the fact that CHRIST PRE-EXISTED AND WAS GOD IN THE BEGINNING.

    AND What are you doing of   Proverbs 30 :4?

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name,👉 and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?👈 

    🙏

     

    April 12, 2023 at 8:31 am#943074
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Deut. 18:15 (Moses speaking) Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from your midst, of your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him.

    Deut. 18:17,18 Yahweh said to me (Moses), “They have well said that which they have spoken.  18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you. I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.

    Curious how God raising up a prophet from their midst (nation of Israel), of their brothers, like Moses (had direct communication with God) is referring to a preexisting son in heaven. Explain!

    April 12, 2023 at 10:10 am#943076
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The New Testament shows us clearly that Jesus Christ existed in the form of God and he emptied himself and came in the flesh. If we reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God, firstborn of all creation, messiah, and the Word of God, then we reject the New Testament. That is fine as we have free will to choose to believe or not. We can only choose for ourselves. I have chosen to believe in the Jesus Christ that the New Testament teaches. I believe it is further revelation and if you try to form your whole doctrine from the Old Testament, then you will not believe in Jesus Christ because he is the fulfilment of the old covenant. The old made way for the new but hasn’t done away with it. The old is not the full picture and never was. It leaves people with mysteries and the predicament of sin. The new fulfils all these outstanding issues. And it was planned this way.

    As someone once said, if someone pays your speeding fine but you have no idea of the law, then you are not that thankful. But if you know the law and realise you have sinned, then you appreciate the messiah and the works that God has done through him.

    April 12, 2023 at 12:12 pm#943077
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: A man was to receive the Spirit of God and bring forth judgement to the Gentiles according to Isaiah.

    Me: Jodi, Let’s READ THE TRUTH!

    YOU SAID ABOVE:

    A MAN WAS TO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    NO Jodi, THAT’S YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF AND REASONING I’M AFRAID!

    HOW LONG I’VE  BEEN TELLING  YOU THAT THE SPIRIT HAS BEEN GIVEN  TO JESUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING?  Read and accept the truth please:

    Isaiah 42:11BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him:

    my elect, my soul DELIGHTS in him:

    Notice the tense, it is the simple present tense, NOT FUTURE TENSE:

    Jodi, We use the simple present tense when an action is happening right now, or when it happens regularly (or unceasingly, which is why it’s sometimes called present indefinite).

    IN THE CASE ABOVE JESUS, THOUGH A SPIRIT, ALREADY CARRIED GOD’S SOUL!

    THE HOLY GHOST!

    (1) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!
    Now let’s read and confirm this in other scripture:

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    Jodi, THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    Jesus! THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD is TALKING! Carry on reading please:

    from the time before it was done,

    Me: ….BEFORE CREATION WAS DONE/BEFORE THE BEGINNING WAS DONE!

    I was there,
    IN THE ABOVE, JESUS CONFIRMED TWO THINGS Jodi,

    ONE THAT HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND

    TWO THAT HE “HAS NOT” SPOKEN IN SECRET, FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John1:1
    Now look again at the tense please:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    HAVE NOT!

    PRESENT PERFECT!

    Jodi, We use the present perfect:

    for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    (2) JESUS PRE-EXISTED, Jodi,
    Attention please, here comes  THE TRUTH! Carry on reading Isiah 48:16,

    and now the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
    Now just read the second part of Isaiah 42 :1,

    I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,
    I SPELL THIS OUT FOR YOU:

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
    Isaiah 42 :1, ….. I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,
    BOTH SCRIPTURES ARE NOT ONLY SAYING AND REFERRING TO THE SAME TRUTH!

    BUT ALSO BOTH USE THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE!

    And we use the present perfect tense: for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    Jodi,

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED, JESUS IS THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD, AND JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, FROM THE BEGINNING!

    MORE PROOF!

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands;

    HEAR THIS, you distant nations:

    Before I was born the Lord called me;
    Jodi and Gene and those who are in harmony with your corrupted teaching,

    the above confirms that

    GOD CALLED JESUS BEFORE HE WAS BORN!

    (3) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!
    DID YOU SEE IT? NO, YOU DON’T! LET’S GO BACK TO Isaiah 48:16  PLEASE ABOVE!

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Isaiah 49:1 ……Before I was born the Lord called me;

    GOD THE FATHER CALLED JESUS AND SENT HIM AND HIS SPIRIT INTO THE WORLD!

    Luke 1:35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee,

    and the power of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee.

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    the Son of God.

    Jody reading the above scripture we are aware that in Jesus’ conception,

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 49 ABOVE,

    GOD CALLED JESUS! LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 48 ABOVE

    GOD SENT THE HOLY GHOST AND JESUS INTO THE WORLD, INTO MARYS’ UNIQUE WOMB Luke 1:46 above!

    JESUS WAS BORN FIRST THE SON OF GOD AS A SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST THROUGH MARY and THEN, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD FROM THE FATHER’S MOUTH:

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    Continue

    Isaiah 49:1… from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
    DID YOU GET THIS Jodi?

    GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST WITHIN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB SPOKE JESUS’ NAME!  THEN WHAT?

    JESUS WAS BORN AS A SPIRIT FULL OF LIGHT OUT OF MARY AND ANTICIPATED MOUNT TABOR.
    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
    Isaiah 49:2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
    Hebrews 4:12 For THE WORD of God is living and effectual, and more piercing

    than any two edged sword;
    Continue. Isaiah 49:2…..in the shadow of his hand he
    HID ME;
    John1:20The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me:

    because he was before me.
    31 And I knew him not,
    but that he may be MADE MANIFEST in Israel,
    therefore am I come baptizing with water.
    32And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him.

    33And I knew him not;
    but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him,

    he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    34And I saw,

    and I gave testimony,
    that this IS the Son of God.

    Simple present tense
    Me: Do I really have to spell this out for you? Are you really going to continue denying that Jesus was a man,

    THE SON OF MAN FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven.
    whom God CALLED  TO JUSTICE BEFORE HE WAS BORN? Isaiah 42:1, 48:16, 49:1,

    You: If Jesus was without sin,

    then he wouldn’t need to be baptized and he most certainly wouldn’t need to be called to JUSTICE.

    Me: THE ABOVE FOR THE NEXT POST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    April 12, 2023 at 12:13 pm#943078
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    Post #943063

    “Jesus Christ being the first born of all creation and having first place in all things”. Does this mean Christ preexisted or he was first to be raised from the dead and receive God’s glory?

    “If Jesus Christ is not the Word or the first to be with God then who was?” Christ is the flesh that came from the word; the next part read above.

    “So why some random guy created on the spot 2000 years ago way after the sons of God witnessing the foundations of the earth being laid.” Please read Deut 18:15,18. Not a thing “random” about God’s plan.

    “If you do not know who it is, then you cannot rule our Jesus Christ.” I can rule out Jesus, because Jesus isn’t God; as those who read John 1:1 believe [the word is God].

    Post #943064

    “And Son of God.” Other than the book of John, everyone called him the son of God and only in Luke 22 does Christ confirmed he is.

    “He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, humbled himself, obedient to God, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and taken up into the glory he had with the Father before the universe.” What do each of the phrases mean?

    Post #943065

    “Jewish belief denies that Jesus is the Messiah.” While Christ was hear the leaders rejected him as the Messiah, after Christ’s ascension didn’t the church flourish? Who denied Jesus was the Messiah?

    Post #943067

    “I don’t need to explain these scriptures as I only need to quote them to get opposition.” Try explaining them instead of just quoting, if you simple quote the verse without giving your understanding of what you believe it says, of course you will have opposition. The person reading it can’t read your mind, which is why I asked you to explain the verses with your understanding.

    Post #943076

    “The old is not the full picture and never was.” What did God mean then when HE told Abraham in Gen. 12:3, 22:18 ‘earth will be blessed in you’; ‘All the nations of the earth will be blessed by your seed’. Sounds to me like God was telling Abraham what he was going to do through Christ. Remember, the old is what the Apostles taught from…now what?!?

    April 12, 2023 at 12:32 pm#943079
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: A man was to receive the Spirit of God and bring forth judgement to the Gentiles according to Isaiah.

    Me: Jodi, Let’s READ THE TRUTH!

    YOU SAID ABOVE:

    A MAN WAS TO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    NO Jodi, THAT’S YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF AND REASONING I’M AFRAID!

     HOW LONG I’VE  BEEN TELLING  YOU THAT THE SPIRIT HAS BEEN GIVEN  TO JESUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING?  Read and accept the truth please:

    Isaiah 42:11BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him:

    my elect, my soul DELIGHTS in him:

    Notice the tense, it is the simple present tense, NOT FUTURE TENSE:

    Jodi, We use the simple present tense when an action is happening right now, or when it happens regularly (or unceasingly, which is why it’s sometimes called present indefinite).

    IN THE CASE ABOVE JESUS, THOUGH A SPIRIT, ALREADY CARRIED GOD’S SOUL!

    THE HOLY GHOST!

    (1) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!

    Now let’s read and confirm this in other scripture:

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    Jodi, THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    Jesus! THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD is TALKING! Carry on reading please: 

    from the time before it was done,

    Me: ….BEFORE CREATION WAS DONE/BEFORE THE BEGINNING WAS DONE!

    I was there,

    IN THE ABOVE, JESUS CONFIRMED TWO THINGS Jodi,

    ONE THAT HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND

    TWO THAT HE “HAS NOT” SPOKEN IN SECRET, FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John1:1

    Now look again at the tense please:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    HAVE NOT!

    PRESENT PERFECT!

    Jodi, We use the present perfect:

    for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    (2) JESUS PRE-EXISTED, Jodi, 

    Attention please, here comes  THE TRUTH! Carry on reading Isiah 48:16, 

    and now the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Now just read the second part of Isaiah 42 :1, 

     I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,

    I SPELL THIS OUT FOR YOU:

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
    Isaiah 42 :1, ….. I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,

    BOTH SCRIPTURES ARE NOT ONLY SAYING AND REFERRING TO THE SAME TRUTH!

    BUT ALSO BOTH USE THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE!

    And we use the present perfect tense: for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    Jodi,

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED, JESUS IS THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD, AND JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, FROM THE BEGINNING! 

    MORE PROOF!

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands;

    HEAR THIS, you distant nations:

    Before I was born the Lord called me;

    Jodi and Gene and those who are in harmony with your corrupted teaching,

    the above confirms that

    GOD CALLED JESUS BEFORE HE WAS BORN!

    (3) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!

    DID YOU SEE IT? NO, YOU DON’T! LET’S GO BACK TO Isaiah 48:16  PLEASE ABOVE!

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Isaiah 49:1 ……Before I was born the Lord called me;

    GOD THE FATHER CALLED JESUS AND SENT HIM AND HIS SPIRIT INTO THE WORLD!

    Luke 1:35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee,

    and the power of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee.

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    the Son of God. 

    Jody reading the above scripture we are aware that in Jesus’ conception,

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 49 ABOVE,

    GOD CALLED JESUS! LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 48 ABOVE

    GOD SENT THE HOLY GHOST AND JESUS INTO THE WORLD, INTO MARYS’ UNIQUE WOMB Luke 1:46 above!

    JESUS WAS BORN FIRST THE SON OF GOD AS A SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST THROUGH MARY and THEN, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD FROM THE FATHER’S MOUTH:

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    Continue

    Isaiah 49:1… from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.

    DID YOU GET THIS Jodi?

    GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST WITHIN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB SPOKE JESUS’ NAME!  THEN WHAT?

    JESUS WAS BORN AS A SPIRIT FULL OF LIGHT OUT OF MARY AND ANTICIPATED MOUNT TABOR.

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD

    Isaiah 49:2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,

    Hebrews 4:12 For THE WORD of God is living and effectual, and more piercing

    than any two edged sword;

    Continue. Isaiah 49:2…..in the shadow of his hand he

    HID ME;

    John1:20The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me:

    because he was before me.

    31 And I knew him not,

    but that he may be MADE MANIFEST in Israel,
    therefore am I come baptizing with water.

    32And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him.

    33And I knew him not;

    but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him,

    he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    34And I saw,

    and I gave testimony,

    that this IS the Son of God.

    Simple present tense

    Me: Do I really have to spell this out for you? Are you really going to continue denying that Jesus was a man,

    THE SON OF MAN FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven.

    whom God CALLED  TO JUSTICE BEFORE HE WAS BORN? Isaiah 42:1, 48:16, 49:1,

    You: If Jesus was without sin,

    then he wouldn’t need to be baptized and he most certainly wouldn’t need to be called to JUSTICE.

    Me: THE ABOVE FOR THE NEXT POST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    April 12, 2023 at 12:52 pm#943080
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    “Jesus Christ being the first born of all creation and having first place in all things”. Does this mean Christ preexisted or he was first to be raised from the dead and receive God’s glory?

    who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    1. Image of invisible God
    2. Firstborn of all creation
    3. All things created because of him and through him
    4. He is before all things
    5. Head of the Church
    6. Firstborn from the dead
    7. To have preeminence in all things

    In your reply quoted above, you mention firstborn of all creation could mean firstborn from the dead. Yes, he is firstborn from the dead (see #6). That leaves #2. Gene basically believes that this too means firstborn from the dead. So he has to admit it mentions the same thing twice which is weird. When you read the text however, it seems clear that each point is a unique point. Thus, he and Jodi do not have an answer for what #2 really means because firstborn from the dead is already mentioned in #6.

    April 12, 2023 at 6:50 pm#943094
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

     

    You

    Deut. 18:15 (Moses speaking) Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from your midst, of your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him.

    Deut. 18:17,18 Yahweh said to me (Moses), “They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you. I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.

    Curious how God raising up a prophet from their midst (nation of Israel), of their brothers, like Moses (had direct communication with God) is referring to a preexisting son in heaven. Explain!

    me

    This prophet preexisted in the form of God (Phil.2), and was made flesh. (John 1:14)

    And Proverbs 30
    no answer ?

    🙏

    April 13, 2023 at 12:27 am#943096
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You end your post with “No answer?” Was I suppose to answer this before you posted it!?!? Or is there a misunderstanding in what you wrote; a translation issue between languages?

    What did you explain concerning the Deut 18 verses? Absolutely nothing! You revert back to what you have been educated in and say here’s your proof, just read it. Explain why you believe what you believe.

    Phil 2 does NOT mention anything about “preexistence”, it says Christ “existed” in the form of God; try again.

    John 1:14 flesh is what the word became and that flesh is Christ; next.

    Neither of these verses explain what both Moses and God spoke. Someone of the nation of Israel, who was like Moses, was going to come, do all God commanded, and the nation was to listen to this man because this man was chosen by God to do HIS will. The Jews believed it was going to be just a man, not a god-man, not incarnated God, or any other man made idea to explain the Messiah. Funny how through out the writings of the new testament Paul, John, and Peter refer to Christ as “a man.” Is it making sense yet?

    April 13, 2023 at 1:51 am#943097
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    The Jews believed it was going to be just a man, not a god-man, not incarnated God, or any other man made idea to explain the Messiah.

    Me

    The Jews were also supposed
    know Proverbs 30:4 and not get stuck on Deuteronomy 18.

    And how is it that the Jews crucified the Messiah announced by the prophets, one of whom tells us that his origin goes back to the days of eternity (Micah 5:2) ???

    🙏

     

     

    April 13, 2023 at 2:34 am#943098
    Berean
    Participant

    You( desir Truth)

    Phil 2 does NOT mention anything about “preexistence”, it says Christ “existed” in the form of God; try again.

    me

    To live in the form of God, one must be God. And the Son of God (Proverbs 30:4/John 1:1) was God and WAS WITH the GOD in the BIGINNING before the World  WAS (John 17:5)

    you:
    John 1:14 flesh is what the word became and that flesh is Christ; next.

    me

    ….AND THE WORD WAS GOD (THEOS) John 1:1

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.(Rev.19:13)

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness👉 he doth judge👈 and make war.( Rev.19:11)

    👉For the Father judgeth no man👈, 👉but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:👈
    [23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 

    🙏

    April 13, 2023 at 2:36 am#943099
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Jesus is both,  firstborn, from the dead and firstborn into the kingdom of God,  how is that hard for you to understand?  Did JESUS not say,  (not me). “You must be born again”?  Even so he had to be born again also.

    Why are you always trying to make Jesus appear different then we are?  Jesus is the “first of many brethren to be born into the kingdom of God”, not the only one to be>

    Please tell us where the word “”preexistence ” is even in the Bible at, referencing Jesus’ actual existence as a LIVE BEING BEFORE HIS BIRTH on this earth >Forcing our text to say what it in fact doesn’t actually is a form of lying.

    Jesus said (not me), “I am the root and offspring of DAVID”,   QUESTION IS, do you truly believe him and what he said.   Please show us where Jesus ever said he preexisted as a living being before he was born on this earth?

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……..gene

    April 13, 2023 at 3:09 am#943100
    Berean
    Participant

     

    @Gene

    “Please show us where Jesus ever said he preexisted as a living being before he was born on this earth?”

     

    Me

    Proverbs 30:4

    👉Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? 👉what is his name,👉 and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? 

    🙏

    April 13, 2023 at 3:20 am#943101
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Explain what you believe is happening in Proverbs 30:4; what does it mean?

    To say I am stuck on the Deut. passage tells me you haven’t any idea how to justify your belief to the passage. The language is simple and nothing is hidden in it, so it can be read and understood for what it literally says.

    Why are we back on Micah? Didn’t I explain it well enough the first time or have you rejected it?

    April 13, 2023 at 3:38 am#943102
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Why are we back on Micah? Didn’t I explain it well enough the first time or have you rejected it? 

    Me

    Micah tells us that the origin of the Messiah dates back to OUTSIDE ETERNITY.
    OF COURSE IT IS THE UNCORRUPTED BIBLES THAT SAY THIS.

    Proverbs 30:4 tells us among other things that God has a Son, AND IT IS BEFORE THIS LATTER BECOMES FLESH. AND ALSO THAT SON HAS A NAME.

    🙏

     

     

    April 13, 2023 at 4:07 am#943103
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and JESUS standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and THE SON OF MAN standing on the right hand of God.

    Isaiah 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. 24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. 25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. 27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God? 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    Psalms 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. 18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Berean, I have provided just a few scriptures that directly connect to Proverbs 30. He who ascended to heaven is the Son of Man and this Son of Man is also descending from heaven. This Son of Man is the promised son of David. YHVH promised that He would be a Father unto an existing son of David and that He would settle him into His kingdom. As I have given you which you continue to ignore, scripture teaches us directly the image of the Son, it is one who is LED by the Spirit of God, it is one who is an heir of God, it is one where the Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a child of God. The man Jesus said that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. We are given that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth. We are given that we are heirs of God, JOINT heirs with the anointed Jesus. We are given that the Spirit came to abode in Jesus without measure, a calling to righteousness. We are given that he who does righteousness has been born of God. We are given that a Son of Man was exalted up to heaven to God’s right hand.  

    What you refuse to acknowledge, the word of God that you treat like dirt to be swept under a rug for the sake of your doctrine, is truly astonishing Berean.

     

    April 13, 2023 at 4:20 am#943104
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Proverbs 30:4 IS saying THAT God hath a Son BEFORE THIS ONE IS MADE FLESH.

    ALL THE TEXTS YOU QUOTE, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST. BUT YOU USE THEM TO CANCEL THE TRUTH.
    YOU MUST NOT USE THE BIBLE TO MAKE THE BIBLE LIE.

    🙏

     

    April 13, 2023 at 7:17 am#943105
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    So the truth is you can’t reconcile Deut 18 to a preexistent Christ; so are now choosing to ignore it.

    Prov 30:4, did your read the chapter? I don’t understand why Jesus has to be injected into everything read in the old testament? Are you sure you’re an Adventist, starting to sound like a Southern Baptist!

    Beginning in verse 1 we find a man Agur is speaking to two other (Ithiel and Ucal) and claiming to the most ignorant man. Then he proceeds to ask a series of questions in verse 4:

    Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended?

    Who has gathered the wind in his fists?

    Who has bound the waters in his garment?

    Who has established all the ends of the earth?

    What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know?

    Agur is asking these men what man do they know who has ascended or descended from heaven, who is able to hold the wind in their fists, contain waters with a garment, or create a world. Then he asks for the name or their child’s name of the one who has done this. Agur may not be the smartest man, but he does know that God did all this and man cannot.

    I did an experiment to see how another would respond to what they thought was being said in verse 4. After reading just verse 4 they responded with it sounds like God and a reference to Jesus. Then reading verse 1 to verse 6, they changed their mind, coming to the same conclusion as stated above.

    We need to stop making this so difficult!! Throw your doctrine out, get rid of your religion, and embrace what God has to offer.

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