Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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September 18, 2021 at 2:11 pm#890511
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Mike,
You said:
Right.
Psalm 2:7
NET… The king says, “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me: ‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!’”
NIV… I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
NLT… The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.”
At the exact moment that God begat His first child, God became a father.
Mike, did you realize that the day that was said is told us in the NT? Do you know when?
September 18, 2021 at 3:44 pm#890512
gadam123
Participant
Mike: Right.
Psalm 2:7
NET… The king says, “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me: ‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!’”
NIV… I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
NLT… The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.”
At the exact moment that God begat His first child, God became a father.
LU: Mike, did you realize that the day that was said is told us in the NT? Do you know when?
Hi Sis Kathi, it’s a good question. In fact Psalm 2 about the Coronation of Jewish King (David) and day was the day of his Coronation. Please go through this….
Psalms 2:7
The concept of physical sonship with God the Father is not found in biblical theology or in first century Judaism. What is found is the biblical concept of the covenantal relationship whereby Israel or an individual within that nation is metaphorically adopted as God’s son. One does not need to undergo a supernatural conception to be declared “son of God” in a Jewish context. In the Christian search for biblical proof of the belief in Jesus as the “Son of God,” proof has often been found where none exists by violating the integrity of the plain meaning of scriptural passages.
Prominent among these is Psalms 2:7, wherein it is stated: “The Lord said to me: ‘You are My son, this day I have begotten you.’” An examination of the context will show that this verse refers to the metaphoric father-and-son relationship between God and David. The king is not divine by nature, rather he is elected to a special relationship with God (metaphorically a father-son relationship; cf. Psalms 89:36). A similar relationship later existed between God and Solomon (2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 22:10, 28:6). This special relationship is not to be taken in a literal sense. We can only speak of God metaphorically, as for example, “mouth of God” (2 Chronicles 35:22), “the eye of the Lord” (Psalms 33:18), “the ears of God” (2 Samuel 22:7), and the like. It is in a similar metaphorical sense that the verse speaks of the son of God, or the sons of God, for whoever carries out the will of God is called “son,” as the son carries out the will of the father. It is for this reason that the text says, “You are My son, this day have I begotten you” (Psalms 2:7), and it states in similar fashion, “Israel is My son, My first born” (Exodus 4:22). To be singled out for God’s special favor as an individual or as a whole people is called, in the Scriptures, “to beget” (Deuteronomy 32:18). David, on his ascension to the throne, was declared to be begotten of God.
The title of son is given to all those who enjoy a special relationship with God (Exodus 4:22, Hosea 2:1). David becomes the son of God ex officio. Similar hyperbolic language is found in Psalm 110, a psalm that portrays the Davidic king enthroned at the right hand of God, reigning in Zion as God’s earthly representative. In all of these cases, the language of poetic hyperbole should not be construed to mean that the king (messiah) is regarded as a divine being. Christians may argue that the references to sonship are typologies pointing to the existence of an actual divine sonship embodied in Jesus. But this argument is obviously based on purely subjective reasoning, with no facts from the Jewish Scriptures to give it support. Psalms 2:7 could not at all refer to Jesus. The verse says: “The Lord said to me: ‘You are My son.’” Why would God have to inform Jesus, a fellow member of the Trinity, of the exact nature of their relationship? The verse then continues: “this day I have begotten you.” If Jesus is God, how can he be begotten? Are we to presume that this statement was made on the day of Jesus’ incarnate conception, and that God spoke to the fertilized egg? Moreover, should we presume that this fertilized egg had the ability to answer God, as is implied in verse 8? There, God states: “Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession.”
Would Jesus, if he was a member of the Trinity, with all its implications, have to make this request of God? Did Jesus have to ask for these or any other possessions? If he were God, the heavens and the earth and all that they contain are already his possessions. Furthermore, if Jesus had the ability to understand God’s statement on the very day of his conception, it would seem incongruous for the New Testament to describe him as “increasing in wisdom and in physical growth with both God and men” (Luke 2:52). This offer by God would have had no meaning since Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 say Jesus came to serve, not to be served. Did God make an empty offer? If the statement, “This day I have begotten you” was made to Jesus at a date later than the day of his conception, and is thus figurative in meaning, he is then not distinguished from all the others who are in the “sonship of God.”
According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus certainly did not have an earthly kingdom during his lifetime. If this is supposed to occur during a second coming, then we come to a further problem. It is alleged that at that time Jesus would be coming back not in an earthly state, but exalted and as God. That being the case, he would not have to ask for either “inheritance” or “possession.” Actually, verse 7 does not mean that David was to inherit literally “the ends of the earth.” It is an obvious hyperbole, the true meaning of which is, a large expanse of territory, and can only apply to a human being that, unlike God, or allegedly Jesus, does not possess all of creation. Similar hyperboles can be found in the Scriptures, for example, “There was no end to his treasures … and there was no end to his chariots” (Isaiah 2:7), and David, who never left the vicinity of the Land of Israel, says: “From the end of the earth I will call you” (Psalms 61:3). A related statement parallel to that of Psalms 2:7 is found in Psalms 89:28: “I will also appoint him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” Since the latter verse clearly refers to the actual person of David, and not to any typological messiah, as is evident from verses 4, 21, 27, 36, and 37, there is good reason to assume that Psalms 2:7 refers to King David. There is no doubt that when the true Messiah comes he will rule the nations, as can be seen from Isaiah 11, and we do not have to seek out proof where none exists. Psalm 2 is a historical psalm and in its plain meaning does not speak about the messianic age. Nevertheless, there are Jewish sources which give this psalm a messianic context, especially midrashic literature.
The messianic interpretation of Psalm 2 occurs in the late Midrash Tehillim, but there “sonship” is metaphorical, “as when a master says to his slave, ‘you are my son’” (Psalms 2:7). It is simply an expression of endearment….(taken from the article by Gerald Sigal)
September 19, 2021 at 4:44 am#890519
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: Performing miracles and healing will not make any one as Messiah who will be a warrior King as promised.
Let me ask again… Since Jesus is recorded as SAYING he is the Messiah prophesied about in the OT, and since Jesus was a man through whom God did miracles and healings, then we either have a case of God performing miracles through a LIAR – or a case of God never performing miracles through Jesus at all.
Which is it?
September 19, 2021 at 5:00 am#890520
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: Yes there is no requirement for such non-human Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible.
Then you will refrain from using the “non-human alien” argument in the future, correct? Good. One less thing to deal with.
Adam: God is not a human as per the Hebrew Bible and an immortal can not become a mortal.
This is from the OT…
Psalm 82:1, 6-7… God presides in the assembly of gods; among the gods He renders judgement…
“I have called you gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
This is Yahweh telling other gods (His spirit sons) that, although He created them immortal, they will die for their sins. There is another such account in the Book of Enoch, where the gods taught humans sorcery and all kinds of other things God didn’t want them to know, and some of them mated with human women. God told those sinners that He made it so man would have children because they are not immortal, but He did not intend for them to have children because they were created immortal. And God’s judgement on them for mating with human women was that they would be destroyed in the final judgement day (after many years of confinement buried deep inside the earth).
So there are two accounts of immortals becoming mortal.

September 19, 2021 at 5:18 am#890521
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Mike
You don’t understand that Paul [in Colossians who says: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” ]
means that Christ by his divine power sustains all things in the universe. It is he who governs the laws of the universe created by his hand
“and upholding all things BY the word of HIS power,” (Hebrews 1: 3)
Maybe I don’t “understand” it because the scriptural words don’t actually say what you say… especially the part about Jesus governing the laws of the “universe” that was “created by his hand”.
First of all, there is no “universe”. Read Gen 1 to understand the world God created for us. Secondly, Jesus himself tells us that it was God (not him) who created that world for us.
Why can’t you understand the Joseph/Pharaoh comparison? Pharaoh GAVE Joseph so much control over Egypt that in Joseph, the entire Egyptian nation consisted, and Joseph upheld the entire nation of Egypt by the word of his power.
It is exactly the same situation – except that Joseph was only PLACED over Egypt, while Jesus was PLACED over the entirety of God’s creation (except for God Himself, obviously… 1 Cor 15:27).
And just like Joseph wasn’t Pharaoh (or even equal to him), Jesus isn’t God (or even equal to Him).
In both cases, the one with ultimate power delegated a LOT of that power to one of his servants. But the servant didn’t become the master, or even equal to the master in either case.
In case you ever become interested in promoting what the Bible actually teaches, here is the world God told us He made…

September 19, 2021 at 5:46 am#890522
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: No where does [scripture] say , by a being “morphed” into a human body was our sins atoned for.
Gene, you’ve been shown here a thousand times that this statement is 100% inaccurate. We all understand that you don’t want to accept everything the scriptures teach about Jesus – but your claim that the scriptures don’t teach those things is blatantly untrue.
John 6:35-51… Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life… I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”
At this the Jews…said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Gene, why can’t you understand that passage as it is written – without adding your own twists into it? Jesus clearly claimed that he came down from heaven. The Jews understood that this is what he was claiming – and even asked, “How can Jesus say he came down from heaven?” Then Jesus reiterated his own claim and insisted that he did in fact come down from heaven.
Gene, why don’t you believe your Lord when he tells you point blank that he came down from heaven?
September 19, 2021 at 5:48 am#890523
gadam123
Participant
Let me ask again… Since Jesus is recorded as SAYING he is the Messiah prophesied about in the OT, and since Jesus was a man through whom God did miracles and healings, then we either have a case of God performing miracles through a LIAR – or a case of God never performing miracles through Jesus at all.
Which is it?
Hi Mike, thanks again for your replies to my posts. Again you are struck at Jesus’ miracles to prove him as Jewish Messiah. I have already stated in my post that miracles and healings can not make anyone King Messiah. I do not make anyone a liar as you are so much interested in that word. Please prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah with the requirements as specified in Hebrew Bible and there ends the matter.
September 19, 2021 at 5:56 am#890524
mikeboll64
Blocked
Carmel: Lucifer was the first creature ever created in the image of God…
Jesus was the first creature ever created in the image of God.
Prov 8:22… Yahweh created me as the first of His works…
Psalm 2:7… You are my son. This very day I have brought you forth into existence…
Micah 5:2… His origin is from days of old, ancient times…
Col 1:15… He is the firstborn of every creature…
Rev 3:14… I am the beginning of the creation by God…
We aren’t told who the second creation was – which is a bummer. It’d be so cool to have a “genealogy” of God’s spirit sons like we have of Adam’s offspring.
September 19, 2021 at 6:07 am#890525
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike……….Jesus was not telling them they were Gods , He meant that in a “possessive” sense. They and we are God’s children his son’s and daughters , and therefore we all “BELONG”, to him. Otherwise that would make Jesus a liar, when he said this.
“this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD.”..
So you either believe what Jesus said or not , not to even mention how many times God himself said that we are to have no other God, besides him. All the rest are “false God’s” to us that are true believers.
While anything can be a God to a person, “but unto “us” (true believers) there is “BUT” “ONE” God and one mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus , the Anointed “MAN” of God.
Mike You either believe it or not, up to you.
peace ad love to you and yours ………….gene
September 19, 2021 at 6:11 am#890526
mikeboll64
Blocked
Carmel: Mike I left it for you SO YOU COMMIT YOURSELF AND DECLARE THAT JESUS IS RIGHT NOW, BETWEEN GOD and MEN!
Yes… Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and mankind.
Carmel: THUS YOU SIMPLY ARE DECLARING THAT JESUS IS SOMEONE UNIQUE WHO IS GOD FROM ONE SIDE, and, MAN FROM THE OTHER SIDE…
Actually, I’m declaring that Jesus is neither “God”, nor “mankind”. He is the mediator BETWEEN those two parties. No mediator can BE one of the parties that he mediates BETWEEN.
September 19, 2021 at 6:17 am#890527
gadam123
Participant
Adam: God is not a human as per the Hebrew Bible and an immortal can not become a mortal.
Mike: This is from the OT…
Psalm 82:1, 6-7… God presides in the assembly of gods; among the gods He renders judgement…
“I have called you gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
This is Yahweh telling other gods (His spirit sons) that, although He created them immortal, they will die for their sins. There is another such account in the Book of Enoch, where the gods taught humans sorcery and all kinds of other things God didn’t want them to know, and some of them mated with human women. God told those sinners that He made it so man would have children because they are not immortal, but He did not intend for them to have children because they were created immortal. And God’s judgement on them for mating with human women was that they would be destroyed in the final judgement day (after many years of confinement buried deep inside the earth).
So there are two accounts of immortals becoming mortal.
Hi Mike, the above of your arguments are on the immortality vs mortality. I ask you what is an immortality? Please read the verse I am quoting from the NT, 1 Tim 6:
16 It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
Ps 82 talks about Elohim (gods), again this verse is quoted by the writer of the Fourth Gospel, John 10:
34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled—
Ps 82:1 “He judges among the gods: God’s standing in the midst of these mighty ones is to bring judgment among them”.
The word gods here is Elohim, the plural for the generic word for god in Hebrew. The idea of God judging gods has led to several suggestions regarding the identity of these elohim, these gods.
· Elohim is often used to describe the true God, Yahweh. It is in the plural to describe both the majesty of His person, and to be a hint of the triune nature of God, being One God in Three Persons.
· Elohim is sometimes used as the plural of pagan deities, the false gods of the nations.
· Elohim is sometimes used in reference to angelic beings.
· Elohim is here best taken as a reference to human judges, who stand in the place of God in their ability to determine the fate of others.
i. “Gathered around Him is an assembly of judges who are called elohim, because they are His delegates; they administer His will; they are His executive agents.” (Morgan)
ii. “The judges and magistrates are compared in this psalm to God, because they exercise something of His power in the right ordering of human society.” (Meyer)
iii. Martin Luther “pointed out that Psalm 82:1, 6 both establishes and limits the authority of princes. It establishes it, because it is God who appoints the authorities; it is he who calls them ‘gods.’ It limits their authority because they are accountable to him, as the psalm shows.” (Boice)
iv. “Earthly judicatories are the appointment of God. All magistrates act in his name, and by virtue of his commission. He is invisibly present at their assemblies, and superintends their proceedings. He receives appeals from their wrongful decisions; he will one day re-hear all causes at his own tribunal, and reverse every iniquitous sentence, before the great congregation of men and angels.” (Horne)
v. “Our Lord’s reference to Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34-38 is, by the present writer, accepted as authoritatively settling both the meaning and the ground of the remarkable name of ‘gods’ for human judges.” (Maclaren)
c. How long will you judge unjustly? As God calls together this assembly of judges, He did not do it to compliment them or pay them honor. He did it to confront them for judging unjustly and for showing partiality to the wicked. This confrontation shows that God Himself is the Judge at the ultimate Supreme Court.
And there is no proof that God created these gods (or angels) which you claim as immortals.
September 19, 2021 at 6:18 am#890528
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: But while I have you here, notice that the scripture you posted clearly identifies “the man who gave himself as a ransom” as someone OTHER THAN “God”.
Carmel: YES DEFINITELY!!!
So you agree that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God? Great.
September 19, 2021 at 6:27 am#890529
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Acts 2:22… Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
And in the verse I quoted, you have the direct answer to one of the questions I’ve been asking you for a month. The answer is YES, God is the one who did the miracles THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.
Carmel: GOD IS THE ONE WHO DIED THROUGH HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS!
I quote scripture that verifies what I say as truth. You make completely irrational claims that can’t be found in any scripture.
So no, God didn’t die at any time. But yes, God is the one who did the miracles through His holy servant Jesus. God also did miracles through other servants like Moses and Elijah. And God can do even greater miracles through any of us.
September 19, 2021 at 6:31 am#890530
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Mike, did you realize that the day that was said is told us in the NT? Do you know when?
I realize that the statement is repeated in the NT after Jesus’ baptism. But I’m not aware of the NT telling us when the statement was originally uttered. I do remember Kangaroo Jack once trying to use Acts 13:33 to make an argument, but it doesn’t say what he claimed it did. Is that the verse you’re talking about?
September 19, 2021 at 6:36 am#890531
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…..All things came from heaven, that exists on this earth even us. Jesus was even set from Heaven, and was the one who came to us from God, that was his destiny before he ever existed, even we are too. Is that not where the throng of God is. Yes Jesus was the bread of Life “sent” from heaven. Jesus said even his disciples were from above, just like he was, sayin “They were not of this world” , That simply means they were in the plan and purpose of God the Father , who is above, before the world ever existed, we all were in his plan, before this world ever existed.
You people never stop to Make Jesus appear different then we are, that’s exactly what Satan want’s you to do, That is why he created these “DOCTRINES” of “SEPARATION” , IN THE CHURCH , in the first place.
peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
September 19, 2021 at 6:56 am#890532
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: We can only speak of God metaphorically, as for example, “mouth of God” (2 Chronicles 35:22), “the eye of the Lord” (Psalms 33:18), “the ears of God” (2 Samuel 22:7), and the like. It is in a similar metaphorical sense that the verse speaks of the son of God…
The first argument that your source makes is that it is a metaphorical sonship – like God having a mouth, eyes or ears are metaphorical. But there is nothing in scripture that tells us that God doesn’t have a literal mouth, eyes or ears, so this argument is based solely on your source’s interpretation that these features of God are metaphorical. And even if those features of God were metaphorical, it wouldn’t follow that this particular sonship in Psalm 2:7 must also be metaphorical. Likewise, the fact that other sonships in the OT are metaphorical (as is attested by the context itself), it wouldn’t necessarily follow that the sonship in Psalm 2:7 must also be metaphorical. This argument fails.
The second argument your source makes is against the unscriptural idea that God is a Triune Godhead. Those arguments are sound, but are not applicable to Christians who accept Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – not God Himself.
In other words, your source did nothing to refute my own belief that Ps 2:7 is Jesus telling how God brought him forth as the first of His works, making Jesus’ sonship much more literal than, say, David’s or the nation of Israel’s.
September 19, 2021 at 7:11 am#890533
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: Again you are struck at Jesus’ miracles to prove him as Jewish Messiah. I have already stated in my post that miracles and healings can not make anyone King Messiah. I do not make anyone a liar as you are so much interested in that word.
There are only 3 possibilities, Adam…
1. Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.
2. Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.
3. God never did miracles through Jesus at all.
Which of those 3 do you believe?

Adam: Please prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah with the requirements as specified in Hebrew Bible and there ends the matter.
Please first prove that God actually exists via the Hebrew Bible. 😉
September 19, 2021 at 7:16 am#890534
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Mike……….Jesus was not telling them they were Gods , He meant that in a “possessive” sense.
Are you talking about Psalm 82? If so, that was Yahweh (not Jesus) assembling with a bunch of other gods (as He did in Job 1:6) and passing judgement of some of those gods for not attending to mankind the way He told them to.
September 19, 2021 at 7:25 am#890535
Berean
Participant
Mike
Jesus named” the Word” BY John was GOD in The BIGINNING…
Paul Wrote : he IS before all THINGS
All THINGS IS all THINGS CREATED
Jesus IS not a THING CREATED because HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS CREATED
and by him all things consist.

In Hebrews 1:3 Paul Wrote
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, ….
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Jesus is not among the creatures who give glory to God and to the Lamb, because HE IS not a creature…

September 19, 2021 at 7:34 am#890536
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Mike,
The statement “today I have begotten you” is not said after Jesus’ baptism. That was said on the resurrection day. Jesus was begotten from the dead and thus firstborn from the dead. Clearly though, the Father was Jesus’ father before the resurrection day.
LU
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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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