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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 18, 2021 at 6:52 pm#872914
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Your statement that was incorrect and not the trinity doctrine was this:

    Thus the substance is the one true God (He) and three persons (they) qualify as being in the club.

    Consubstantial means of one and the same substance, essence, or nature, especially the three divine persons of the Christian Trinity.

    If your statement was correct then substance = the one true God. However consubstantial, which is the term used by the trinitarians, means three members “of” the same eternally divine substance, essence, or nature = the one Godhead.

    August 19, 2021 at 6:09 pm#872918
    gadam123
    Participant

    For Sis Kathi….

     Understanding Hebrews 1:10-12 (Matthew Janzen, Revised 2015)

    One Scripture often used to prove Yeshua’s hand in creation is Hebrews 1:10-12. Most theologians assume the writer of Hebrews is including verses 10-12 as additional statements that Yahweh makes to or about His Son. The use of “and” in verse 10 and “but” in verse 13 seem to suggest this (in their estimation). If we look deeper, we will find several things to consider. Verses 10-12 are direct quotes from Psalm 102:25-27, however, they are not quoted from the Hebrew Text, but from the Septuagint (LXX).

    The Hebrew Text does not have “Lord” in it. Therefore, to say that “Lord” in Hebrews 1:10 proves that Yeshua is Yahweh is unscriptural. The LXX has Kurie in Psalm 102:25, but that is also not found in the Hebrew Text. The LXX also omits “O my God” in verse 24.

    In reading Psalm 102 (from the Hebrew), it is clear the subject is Yahweh. The words are spoken by an afflicted man as he cries out to Yahweh. They are not the words of Yahweh as He speaks to His Son. Notice each of the other Old Testament quotes in Hebrews 1.

    Psalm 2:7 – “…Thou art my Son; this day I (Yahweh) have begotten thee.”

    2 Samuel 7:14 – “I (Yahweh) will be to him a Father…”

    Deuteronomy 32:43 (LXX) – “And let all the angels of God (Yahweh) worship him.”

    Psalm 45:6,7 – “Thy throne O God…therefore God, thy God (Yahweh) hath anointed thee.”

    Psalm 110:1 – “Sit on my right hand, until I (Yahweh) make thine enemies thy footstool.”

    In each of these quotes it can be seen that either Yahweh is talking to His Son or about His Son. Yet, in Psalm 102:25-27, it is the Psalmist talking to Yahweh. Therefore, to include Hebrews 1:10-12 among those things that Yahweh said to or about His Son is incorrect.

    The writer of Hebrews had written verses 1-9 to show how Yahweh exalted His Son, even above the angels. The writer was then moved to exalt Yahweh as well by including verses 10-12 as a parenthesis. He afterwards resumes by showing Yeshua’s exaltation in verse 13 which is a continuation of verse 9. This is shown by three major points.

    First, in Hebrews 1:8 Yeshua is referred to as God, but is said to also have God over and above him in verse 9. The God of verse 9 is mentioned directly before verses 10-12, implying that verses 10-12 are speaking of this particular God. The only God above Yeshua would be Yahweh God Almighty. This means that the verses directly before Hebrews 1:10-12 show that Yeshua is not Yahweh God, but only holds the title God under Yahweh. It is a rare known Biblical fact, but the words Elohim (Hebrew) and Theos (Greek) are words that have uses outside of reference to Almighty Yahweh. They can be used in secondary senses to denote strength and might, or describe beings that hold high authority under the full authority of Yahweh the Father. I have written and taught on this more extensively elsewhere.

    Secondly, a few verses in the next chapter show us that creation was the work of Yahweh’s hands, and not Yeshua’s. Hebrews 1:10 shows us that the heavens are the works of the Master’s hands. Who is the Master here? Hebrews 2:5-9 makes it clear that the Master is Yahweh the Father.

    For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.But we see Yeshua, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Notice that it is Yahweh who crowned Yeshua, and set Yeshua over the works of His hands. These works are none other than those spoken of in Hebrews 1:10. Thus Yahweh in Hebrews 2:7 was before spoken of in Hebrews 1:10. The heavens are not the works of Yeshua’s hands. Yeshua was rather set over the works of Yahweh’s hands.

    Thirdly, the context of Psalm 102:24-27 aligns perfectly with the context of Hebrews 1:1-12. In Psalm 102:24, the Psalmist asks Yahweh not to take him away in the midst of his days/living. The Psalmist immediately then pronounces the supremacy of Yahweh by mentioning the creation that finds its existence because of the all-powerful Creator, Yahweh (vss. 25-26). The Psalmist gives mention of how the heavens and earth will grow old like a piece of clothing, but Yahweh will remain the same, and His years will have no end. Therefore the Psalm continues in verse 28 by saying, “The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.” Yahweh’s supremacy, creatorship, and sovereignty cause the children of those who serve him to continue and be established in His presence.  ikewise in Hebrews 1, where the author is uplifting the Son, he pronounces upon Him a name better than  he angels, and the very title Theos (God). The author then proceeds to explain exactly why the Son will be  stablished in such high honor. It is because Yahweh the Creator (Hebrews 1:10-12) is supreme and sovereign, and able to uphold this position He has given to the Son. Both passages (Psalms and Hebrews) teach that Yahweh will establish His children and servants, because He is able, seeing He is the one that causes existence (creation) itself.

    It’s purely Christian interpretation. I thought it may be useful to you.

    August 20, 2021 at 2:49 am#872921
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……… If you believe God the Father called Jesus a God,  then God the Father would  be contradicting   his very own words,  “you shall have no other God beside me , 

    Isa 44:6…“Thus says the LORD the king of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD OF HOSTS ; I am the first , and the last,  and BESIDES ME, THERE IS “NO” GOD. 

    Isa 44:8…..Fear you not , neither be afraid: have not I told from that time, and declared it: you are my witnesses , IS THER A GOD BESIDES ME?  yea, there is “NO” GOD;  “I KNOW NOT ANY”.

    So it seems The LORD our GOD can’t find any other “true God but himself”  , but some here think they know better then God does,  and deliberately deny his very own words.  We will see where that winded up in the end.

    peace and love to you all……….gene

    August 20, 2021 at 3:18 am#872922
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    So it seems The LORD our GOD can’t find any other “true God but himself”  , but some here think they know better then God does,  and deliberately deny his very own words.  We will see where that winded up in the end. 

    Like you for example who preaches an outlaw savior.

    August 20, 2021 at 3:49 am#872923
    Berean
    Participant

    August 20, 2021 at 9:37 am#872926
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks again for your reply to my post. I am not alone in stating that the NT is diversity than unity on the nature of Jesus.

    It really is not hard to understand. I guess that God makes people blind to this by handing them over to the spirit of confusion.

    The Word that was with God was divine and became flesh and is now back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    The revelation of Jesus Christ is a mystery for sure. Scripture says this.

    On account of this I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles —if indeed you have heard about the stewardship of God’s grace given to me for you. According to[a] revelation the mystery was made known to me, just as I wrote beforehand in brief, 4 so that you may be able when you read to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ (which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit): that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow sharers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I became a servant, according to the gift of God’s grace given to me, according to the working of his power.

    &

    the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.…

    The problem you believe that I have gadam is that I believe in the continuation of prophets and revelation of God’s plan whereas you hold that the Old Testament is the full revelation and anything else is wrong.

    I would like to ask why you believe this though. There is nothing in the Old Testament that enforces such an idea. As you are aware, it is the 5 books of Moses and then the prophets. So why is Malachi the last? Seems weird to think that it all ends there.

    Prophets did arise after these times. One that comes to mind is John the Baptist. You obviously believe he is a false prophet or perhaps didn’t exist.

    August 20, 2021 at 11:17 am#872934
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Berean, lovely song.

    Blessings, LU

    August 21, 2021 at 2:50 am#872937
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Proclaimer is right, about the sacrificial lamb, being  the sign of the redemption given us in the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God,  Jesus Christ.  He is absolutely  right about that. It was God the Father who offered up Jesus as the payment for our sins.  That is clear in both the new and the Old Testaments, of how sin were dealt with.

    About the “my lord and my God ” things also Timothy was addressing two different persons when he made that statement , he is right about that also.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

     

    August 21, 2021 at 4:06 am#872939
    gadam123
    Participant

    gadam, when you know the truth there is no contradiction because there is no contradiction in truth.

    Doctrines in scripture are clear and in unity. So-called contradictions are easily cleared up. They are simply misunderstandings that can be cleared up easily enough.

    I challenge people when they say there is contradiction. Trouble is there are a lot of brainwashed people out there who teach and follow traditions that were passed down.

    Hi Proclaimer, I asked you earlier what’s the truth here?

    First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.

    August 21, 2021 at 4:12 am#872940
    gadam123
    Participant

    The problem you believe that I have gadam is that I believe in the continuation of prophets and revelation of God’s plan whereas you hold that the Old Testament is the full revelation and anything else is wrong.

    Sorry I never claimed the above highlighted statement. It’s the NT and the Christianity claims that the Old (Testament) is incomplete without the New. I am only investigating the so called greater claims of the NT and Christianity by comparing them with their original source the Hebrew scriptures.

    I hope I am clear.

    August 21, 2021 at 4:16 am#872941
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Proclaimer is right, about the sacrificial lamb, being  the sign of the redemption given us in the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God,  Jesus Christ.  He is absolutely  right about that. It was God the Father who offered up Jesus as the payment for our sins.  That is clear in both the new and the Old Testaments, of how sin were dealt with.

    About the “my lord and my God ” things also Timothy was addressing two different persons when he made that statement , he is right about that also.

    Hi brother Gene, sorry I am not for Jesus to be a sacrificial Lamb as God never accepted Human sacrifice on the alter for redemption of sins. In fact it was an abomination to Yahweh.

    Coming to the statement of doubting Thomas let the Christian brothers and sisters comment on this.

    August 21, 2021 at 5:24 am#872942
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Do you understand the concept of Sacrifice,  what it represented even in the Old Testament , can you give a reason for it to ever be commanded by God himself? please think about this and answer this inquire, It may help a lot here.

    peace and love to you and your Adam………….gene

    August 21, 2021 at 6:21 am#872944
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Do you understand the concept of Sacrifice,  what it represented even in the Old Testament , can you give a reason for it to ever be commanded by God himself? please think about this and answer this inquire, It may help a lot here.

    Please check my post on “Jewish Messiah”

    August 21, 2021 at 8:38 am#872945
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless in The precious name of Jésus …Amen !

    August 21, 2021 at 9:14 am#872946
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If we reject sacrifice, mercy, and grace, then we might as well throw away the Old Testament. These by the way are the theme of the New Testament. God desires mercy over sacrifice, but sometimes you need to sacrifice something to gain mercy. This is true even in our lives. Elite athletes for example sacrifice their social life to attain trophies. How much more then would God want sacrifice if it means the salvation of our souls.

    The soul who sins is the one who will die. 

    now that you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.…

    August 21, 2021 at 9:20 am#872947
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, I asked you earlier what’s the truth here?

    First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.

    If you say that Jesus is God, then you have serious contradictions in the scripture. If you say he is and only ever was a created man, then you have serious contradictions to deal with.

    But if you say that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God before the cosmos, that he emptied himself and came in the flesh, was obedient to God, sacrificed for our sins as the Lamb of God, rose from the dead as death is defeated, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos, then you have zero contradictions.

    In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
        did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
        by taking the very nature of a servant,
        being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
        he humbled himself
        by becoming obedient to death—
            even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
        and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
        in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
        to the glory of God the Father.

    I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

    But centuries of tradition has blinded many from the truth that the New Testament clearly reveals to us.

    Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    By and large, men are still the same stubborn creatures they were back in Jesus day.

    August 21, 2021 at 3:27 pm#872949
    gadam123
    Participant

    But if you say that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God before the cosmos, that he emptied himself and came in the flesh, was obedient to God, sacrificed for our sins as the Lamb of God, rose from the dead as death is defeated, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos, then you have zero contradictions.

    This is the biggest mythology of the NT stating that the supposed Messiah was preexisting his birth and was sacrificed as a Lamb for the sins of the world. Such concepts on Messiah are no where found in the Hebrew Bible. You can find plenty of such mythologies in our Eastern religions like Hinduism.

    August 21, 2021 at 6:54 pm#872951
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    YOU: This is the biggest mythology of the NT stating that the supposed Messiah was preexisting his birth and was sacrificed as a Lamb for the sins of the world. Such concepts on Messiah are nowhere found in the Hebrew Bible.

    ME: I’m afraid NOWHERE SEEN IS MORE PROPER!

    Isaiah 45:14Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,

    the God of Israel the saviour.

    16They are all confounded and ashamed:

     

    the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

     

    What are your comments regarding the above scripture!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 22, 2021 at 1:46 am#872956
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    ADAM……I also believe that the biggest myth of all,  is thinking Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth. Jesus never address himself as having a actual personal pass relationship with God,  he  always used present tense language,  except where he was referencing prophetic subjects MATTER. I have ask here before for anyone to show me ANY DIALOGUE or ACTIVITY of him in the Old Testament WITH God. No one has ever shown me any.  Why didn’t Jesus ever say , he was alive in heaven with God talking to him before he was ever born on this earth. Surely something as important as that , he would have told people over and over, but not a single word about it,  Surely he would have said it to them all, if that were the case.

    So in this I do strongly agree with you Adam.  I believe you problem has to deal with not so much how the true apostles or original writers , but more with the false concepts applied to those scriptures by the Fallen or Present Apostate Church’s apply them. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene

    August 22, 2021 at 3:12 am#872958
    gadam123
    Participant

    So in this I do strongly agree with you Adam.  I believe you problem has to deal with not so much how the true apostles or original writers , but more with the false concepts applied to those scriptures by the Fallen or Present Apostate Church’s apply them. IMO

    Hi brother Gene, thanks for your agreement on the myth of preexistence of the Messiah. I request you to go beyond this even to the level of the so called writers who were not the eye witnesses of the events in the life of Jesus including Paul. You will realise the actual problem in the NT. These writers wanted to prove their Hellenistic ideas on Jesus the supposed Messiah. Please take the example of the writer of Matthew how he misquoted the Hebrew scriptures to prove Jesus’ so called Virgin Birth. What can you expect from these writers? Similarly the writer of John’s Gospel who mystified Jesus by comparing him with God’s impersonal ‘word’ as if he was preexisting with God as a separate (divine) being. This is often supported by the non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others here.

    Please understand my struggle for truth.

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