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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 14, 2021 at 5:20 am#872760
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Being found in fashion  as a “man” ,why?,   was because he was a “MAN”.

    “but unto us ( the saved) , there is but “ONE GOD”   and  ONE MEDIATOR , between GOD and men, “the “MAN”  Jesus Christ. ”

    YOU either believe that or not, just that simple .

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    August 14, 2021 at 5:52 am#872761
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You are only quoting the verses partially ….

    it is written:

    Who, being in the form of God,

    thought it was not stealing to be equal with God:

    [7] But he made himself without reputation,

    and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the image of men:

    [8] And being found fashionable as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 

     

    took UPON HIM(His divine form) the form of a servant

    August 14, 2021 at 12:44 pm#872762
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Word was divine. Real clear. How can you deny it? Simple. Reject Jesus Christ is the Word. But rejecting scripture is not a great idea.

    August 14, 2021 at 2:47 pm#872763
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,
    If Jesus was given the Word of God, then he cannot be that word.
    When are you going to get that?

    Good to see you chastising Jodi, but for this point I think you are wrong.

    Ed J, When are you going to get that your name can be reflective of your attributes?

    For example, Jesus changed people’s names to reflect that which they were would become.

    He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder)…

    Upon Jesus Christ’s return, his name is The Word of God. And we read that the Word that was WITH God became flesh. Hello! Are you paying attention to scripture?

    We know that he was with God in the beginning and came here in the flesh, and is now with the Father in the glory he had before the cosmos.

    You say that he is not the Word of God because he speaks the words of God, but it is the other way around. He is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God. He is the expression of God. The visible image of the invisible God.

    People get so confused about identities vs nature. I am amazed by that because it is not a hard concept to grasp. Even a kid can grasp it. There is obviously something getting in the way that blinds men from this truth and other truths.

    August 14, 2021 at 3:40 pm#872764
    gadam123
    Participant

    You say that he is not the Word of God because he speaks the words of God, but it is the other way around. He is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God. He is the expression of God. The visible image of the invisible God.

    People get so confused about identities vs nature. I am amazed by that because it is not a hard concept to grasp. Even a kid can grasp it. There is obviously something getting in the way that blinds men from this truth and other truths.

    Hello Proclaimer, if it is so easy why there is no end to such debates on Jesus?

    I also wonder why the NT and Christianity made the impersonal word of God of the Hebrew Bible into an ontological spirit being or a god who was preexisting with one God in the beginning? Is it not a mythology? Is it not a polytheism and an idolatry?

    August 14, 2021 at 6:58 pm#872765
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He is the God of the living not the dead.

    God has all the attributes. He creates beings to reflect his nature.

    In the case of Christ, he has the fullness of the deity in him.

    He is the first.

    God is eternal.

    Someone was first.

    The first to be with God is not God, but most like God because he was begotten from him directly.

    Whereas, no one else can claim that.

    August 14, 2021 at 7:01 pm#872766
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hello Proclaimer, if it is so easy why there is no end to such debates on Jesus?

    There is an adversary who commands many beings to fight against God.

    Humans are easy targets, but God has made it possible for us to overcome.

    Choose your side.

    August 14, 2021 at 9:30 pm#872769
    gadam123
    Participant

    The first to be with God is not God, but most like God because he was begotten from him directly.

    Whereas, no one else can claim that.

    This is the greatest mythology of Christianity stating that God literally begets some one or something. Sorry I can’t find this myth in the whole of Hebrew Bible.

    August 14, 2021 at 10:35 pm#872770
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Myth?

    Then you cannot believe in God then.

    And you deny the most basic of logic.

    Wind the clock back.

    You are alive and so are your parents and their parents.

    But eventually you will go so far back that you will have to arrive at the first life.

    Where did that first life come from?

    Nothing? If so, then death created life.

    If it came from life, then there had to be an eternal life.

    Wake up gadam. How long have you been alive? And you haven’t thought about that truth?

    And so it is written in the New Testament and you think this fact is myth?

    You deny basic logic because you don’t like the New Testament.

    Your loss.

    August 15, 2021 at 2:13 am#872776
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……God’s word is certainly Devine, no matter who quotes them,  but turning “the man Jesus ”  into a God is a Lie , and that is exactly what fallen Christianity has done.

    Look the very reason the apostasy took place over 1700 years ago, was because of the false teachings of The TRINITY DOCTRINE,  and that DOCTRINE turns  the “MAN” Jesus Christ into a GOD.  He is the “ONLY” “MAN”  who “IS” sitting in the true TEMPLE OF GOD , and is being displayed  and worshiped as a God.

    This “LIE”  , about Jesus must be revealed, to all Christianity , before Jesus returns, according to what Paul wrote,  “BEFORE” Jesus returns.  So many can have a chance to repent, from committing Idolatry .

    The complete false teachings of turning Jesus from a human being,  into something else must be exposed to the Churches, “BEFORE HIS RETURN”  according to 2ths2 . So people born into that LIE may have a chance to repent, by hearing the truth about those false teachings, of the TRINITY DOCTRINE,   You are in a unique position to further that whole process along .

    I believe God the Father will bring many here to this site, to hear this end time message and make it possible for them to escape that bond of inequity they are in.

    But it is essential you yourself come to see that Jesus is and was always a human being , not a being “morphed” into a human body”  my hope and prayer is that God will grant you the power  to see that truth brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    August 15, 2021 at 2:38 am#872777
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….. First of all you need to understand what it means to be in the “form” of God,  can you explain that to us?  Next is what time was that talking about , I believe it was talking about when he was on this earth,  Then the passage address the idea that Jesus did not think to “rob” God to try to make himself “equal” to him.    It is not say that he was ever was  equal with God ever.

    Jesus was in a unique position , because of all the Miracles God was doing through him , he could have acted as if he was the one doing those miracles himself,  giving the appearance of himself being  God or equal with him. But he gave all the Glory to God the Father.

    There is an example of that in scripture,  it was when Jesus told Mary about he brother Lazarus , that I’d she only believed she would see the Glory of God,  that if left alone could have portrayed Jesus as God, because it was Jesus who was going to call Lazarus to come forth , so she could assumed by what Jesus had said to her before he did it that he was the God doing it,  but notice Jesus’ words immediately after he said that to her , his very nets Word were , “Father I only said that , that they might believe you sent me. Get it , he was making sure that the Father didn’t think he was trying to steal Glory from him.

    remember Moses screwed up with that at the Waters of Meriba and was prevented from going into the promise land as a result.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    August 15, 2021 at 3:01 am#872778
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Because Christ is the OWN SON OF GOD, HE IS GOD. 

    That’s like saying that because you are the son of Joe, you ARE Joe.  And what’s more, you even identify this son as “Christ”.  Do you know what a christ is, Berean?  There are many christs in the Bible.  They are those who are anointed (ie: set aside for a specific purpose) by God.  None of them, including Jesus, are the very God who anointed them.

    The fact that God anointed Jesus prohibits Jesus from being the God who anointed him.

    August 15, 2021 at 3:11 am#872779
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: Well put. That is exactly how I feel too.

    Is Berean a Trinitarian?

    I believe he is on the same path as Kathi – who came here as a Trinitarian, but was then forced to abandon that unscriptural idea and come up with her own “Jesus is God” doctrines.

    August 15, 2021 at 3:13 am#872780
    gadam123
    Participant

    Wake up gadam. How long have you been alive? And you haven’t thought about that truth?

    And so it is written in the New Testament and you think this fact is myth?

    You deny basic logic because you don’t like the New Testament.

    Your loss.

    Hi Proclaimer, what is the truth? The NT was written as  polemics against Jewish people in time of those writers and they are much oriented towards Gentile Hellenistic Christianity. Please read the Hebrew Bible with open mind and you will notice the differences between two books.

    August 15, 2021 at 3:44 am#872781
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  So what is [below the waters that are beneath the earth] then? A brick wall? What is beyond the brick wall?

    As I’ve repeatedly said, we are not told that information in scripture, so I don’t know.  I only know that there are waters above the firmament and below the earth – and that God, Jesus, and 24 elders rule from thrones that are in heaven above us (presumably all of us and not just the people who happen to be on the right side of a ball).

    I could ask you what’s beyond the extent of the vast universe that you believe in, right?  I could suggest it was a brick wall, and then ask what’s beyond that brick wall, right?  Would your inability to know such things reflect negatively on your worldview?  If not, then why would you keep asking this line of questioning to me as if it affects anything?

    Scriptures say that the earth was formed out of water (Gen 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5), right?  Those scriptures clearly contradict your worldview, but we could still ask the question: What, if anything, was there before God created the water from which the earth was formed?  What holds that water in place?  A brick wall?

    And again, the answer is that we’re not given that information, so we don’t know.  We only know that the earth is stationary with a hard, bronze-like dome over it that separates the waters above from the waters below, and in which the sun, moon, and stars run circuits over us like a celestial clock, by which we can determine days, weeks, months, and seasons.  Oh, and that God rules from His throne which is in one place that is above all of us at the same time.

    August 15, 2021 at 4:22 am#872782
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD THE FATHER AND IN ONLY LORD JESUS CHRIST. AMEN

    That is 100% scriptural – in reference to the hierarchy, ie: God is above Jesus, and Jesus is above us.  It is not meant to be a literal all-encompassing statement meaning there is literally only one god and literally only one lord.  In fact, the statement in 1 Cor 8 begins with the literal truth that there are indeed many gods and many lords.

    So Jesus is indeed a god, and YHWH is indeed a lord.  The statement is meant to show hierarchy, just like this statement…

    1 Cor 11:3… But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    The above doesn’t mean that God is NOT the head of man because ONLY Christ is, nor does it mean that Christ is NOT the head of women because ONLY man is.  It is meant to show the hierarchy of power:  God, then Christ, then man, then woman.

    And it doesn’t include every class either.  If it did, we’d see God, then Jesus, then the 12 who rule at Jesus’ side, then the kings appointed to rule over the earth by those heavenly rulers, then the princes, then the local lords, then the generals of thousands, then the captains of hundreds, then the lieutenants of fiftys, then the sergeants of tens, then the civilian men, then the women, then the male servants, then the female servants, then the children, then the dogs, etc, etc, etc.

    So as long as you understand that the statement, “for us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ” is a hierarchy naming God as greater than Jesus and Jesus as greater than us, you have my AMEN.

    August 15, 2021 at 4:34 am#872783
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  The way I look at it is that

    JESUS DIDN’T SAY OR MEANT THAT HE IS NOT GOD, IN FACT, HE CONFIRMED THAT

    WITHOUT BELIEVING IN HIM, ALL HEARTS ARE IN TROUBLE CONCERNING GOD!

    Then with all due respect, you are looking at it wrong.  Jesus clearly identified himself as someone other than God, and you clearly disagree with your Lord.

    Carmel:  GOD WITHOUT JESUS IS NOT GOD AT ALL Mr. Mike!

    Nonsense.  We no longer have a direct path to God (like Moses did), because God has placed Jesus as the mediator between man and God – but even without Jesus, God would still exist and be our Creator.  Carmel, what is a mediator?  Can a mediator between Person A and Person B actually be either Person A or Person B?  No.  A mediator is neither of the parties he mediates between.  Jesus is neither God nor mankind – but the one who mediates between those two parties.

    I’m still waiting for you to answer these questions:

    Did God do signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    Has God done signs and wonders through His other servants throughout history?  Yes or No?

    Can God do even greater signs and wonders through us if He chooses to?  Yes or No?

    August 15, 2021 at 4:47 am#872784
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Christianity created mythologies on human Messiah.

    Prove it, Adam.  Provide absolute irrefutable PROOF that Jesus was not existing in the form of a god, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being, who dwelt on earth for 30 years and then ascended back into heaven.

    If you cannot PROVE these statements you repeatedly make, then how do you expect any of us to consider your words as anything other than the annoying and incoherent drip, drip, drip of a leaky faucet?

    Give us something of value by which we can take you seriously… because so far, your claim to fame is that the coming messiah can be absolutely anyone who is born at any given time on earth by any regular human woman in the normal fashion that all humans are born – and that this is somehow a sign that God gave us thousands of years ago.

    Not very convincing.

    August 15, 2021 at 5:03 am#872785
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  In the beginning, the Son of God is of the same divine nature as God his Father: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient…

    Why on earth would you repeat a statement that I’ve already shown you to be erroneous?

    Is Jesus omnipotent?  “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Is Jesus omniscient?  “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt 24:36)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Is Jesus omnipresent?  “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” (John 16:28)  Scriptural answer:  NO.

    Please don’t continue to make claims that you already know are unscriptural.

    August 15, 2021 at 5:11 am#872786
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: adam = human being (among others)
    Eve = human being = adam

    THE Adam = human being = adam

    Eve = human being = adam – but not THE Adam

     

    THE God = spirit being = god

    Jesus = spirit being = god – but not THE God

     

    It’s all about the “THE”, Berean.  As John told us, the logos was with THE God in the beginning, and was also god (but not THE God whom he was with)

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