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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 12, 2021 at 3:35 pm#872729
    gadam123
    Participant

    Carmel: may I ask you a rather odd question please, it could seem out of the contest, but my intention is to expand on it and determine some vital truth.  This is my question:

    FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE POINT OF VIEW,  IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER OF JEWS AND THE GENTILES OR THE FATHER ONLY OF THE JEWS, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT GOD MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID

    ISRAEL IS MY SON.

    I AM ASKING YOU THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION SIMPLY AS YOU ARE VERY KEEN ON THE HEBREW BIBLE.

    Hi Carmel, thanks for your reply to my post. The question raised by you could be very well answered by you as the Hebrew Bible was the primary source of the Christian New testament and the OT is the part of the Christian Bible.

    Hebrew religion revolves around the people of Israel and its God had been the father of Israel (including Jews). Yes the Gentiles will be included with God’s children, Israel if they seek this God.

    Hope this will answer your query.

    August 12, 2021 at 6:01 pm#872732
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    I don’t argue against the divinity or deity of Jesus, and accept that both of those qualities come from him being one of God’s spirit sons.  Another AMEN for us, B!  

    Me

    DIVINITY of Christ :

    Because Christ is the OWN SON OF GOD, HE IS GOD. AND THAT IS WHY THE FATHER THROUGH HIM CREATED EVERYTHING. NONE OF WHAT WAS CREATED WAS CREATED WITHOUT HIM.

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

     

    “HIM”IS THE DIVINE SON IF GOD

    August 12, 2021 at 8:43 pm#872733
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’m always stuck in the middle of non-preexisters and Trinitarians, Gene.  But from my middle ground of what the scriptures actually teach, I can see the good and bad arguments from both sides.  You make excellent scriptural arguments that Jesus isn’t God Almighty, while Berean turns around and makes excellent scriptural arguments that Jesus preexisted his time on earth.

    I get to see the best of both worlds from my vantage point, although I often wish I could just bang both of your heads together and it would result in you seeing the truth that Jesus preexisted and him seeing the truth that Jesus isn’t the God he is the Son of.

    Well put. That is exactly how I feel too.

    Is Berean a Trinitarian?

    August 12, 2021 at 8:45 pm#872734
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Why would God be below the earth?  In the Biblical model (not “my” model), God sits on His throne above us… ALL of us.

    So what is there then? A brick wall? What is beyond the brick wall?

    Think about this one please.

    August 13, 2021 at 3:57 am#872739
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer

    Mike, Gene AND all

    Almost everything is on this website

    https://www.trinitytruth.org/index.html

    God bless

     

     

     

    August 13, 2021 at 8:11 am#872741
    Berean
    Participant

     

    beautiful song by Simon Khorolskiy

    ://youtu.be/Z4M9jD7I5g4

    God bless

     

    August 13, 2021 at 8:17 am#872742
    Berean
    Participant

    https forgotten

    August 13, 2021 at 8:23 am#872743
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Why is there a Trinity Doctrine?

    Because the antichrist spirit is in the world.

    1 John 4:15

     “If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.”

    Belief in the Trinity / Binity / Whatevery means that you deny Jesus as the begotten Son and that God is a father because you believe that Jesus is God and didn’t come from God.

    1 John 2:22

    Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

    1 John 2:23

    No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    August 13, 2021 at 8:47 am#872744
    Berean
    Participant

    Personally, I believe that in the beginning Jesus was God. HE WASN’T THE MIGHTY GOD. I believe he WAS BEGOTTEN BY THE FATHER.
    AT THE INCARNATION, HE COVERED OUR FLESH ON HIS DIVINITY.
    THEREFORE I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD THE FATHER AND IN ONLY LORD JESUS CHRIST. AMEN

    August 13, 2021 at 10:34 am#872745
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME John 14:1 Read, discern and practice

    THE ONLY TRUTH! JESUS!!!

    John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled.  You believe in God, believe also in ME.

    YOU: You quoted a scripture where Jesus identified himself as someone other than God, Carmel.  Why don’t you believe your Lord when he himself tells you that he is someone other than God?

    The way I look at it is that

    JESUS DIDN’T SAY OR MEANT THAT HE IS NOT GOD, IN FACT, HE CONFIRMED THAT

    WITHOUT BELIEVING IN HIM, ALL HEARTS ARE IN TROUBLE CONCERNING GOD!

    GOD WITHOUT JESUS IS NOT GOD AT ALL Mr. Mike!

    WHY?

    BECAUSE SATAN ACCREDITED TO HIMSELF THE TITLE OF GOD ON EARTH TILL

    JESUS MADE HIM AWARE

    WHO THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS ON EARTH, SOMETHING THE FATHER COULD NOT ACHIEVE AT ALL IN THE OT. SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT! READ AND DISCERN THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: ( confirmed on Jesus’ death, of which the father could not achieve on his own, the fact that Jesus is God! att. please)

    That they may know thee, the only true God,

    How they, God’s enemies, may know the Father, definitely NOT in the Father Himself NO? He is invisible Mike, and if they know the only true God, not in the Father, in whom they will know Him? Read;

     and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent!

    NO GOD NO JESUS, NO JESUS NO GOD!

    SIMPLY AS JESUS IS PRECISELY GOD VISIBLE AND TRUE FOR THE HUMAN RACE

    THEIR GOD IN FLESH AND BLOOD, THE FATHER HAS NO FLESH AND BLOOD Mike, HE IS A SPIRIT!

    GOD OF ALL SPIRITS, AND AS A SPIRIT HE IS HANDICAPPED ON EARTH! Romans 1:21-23

    WHILE JESUS IS GOD OF ALL FLESH, SINCE HE GAVE HIS FLESH IN EXCHANGE FOR THE FLESH OF THE HUMAN RACE READ HEREUNDER;

    John17: 1THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour (OF THE CROSS) is come, glorify thy Son,( ON HIS DEATH IN THE HOLY GHOST) that thy Son may glorify thee. (IN THE FLESH ALSO IN THE HOLY GHOST John13:31-32, Acts 20:28) 

    ATTENTION Mike,

    2As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH,

    that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.

    Are you in the position to expand and say why THE FATHER GAVE JESUS POWER OVER

    “ALL FLESH” not just flesh and blood.

    HOW MANY TYPES OF FLESH ARE THERE! ISN’T JUST THE

    FLESH AND BLOOD? Tell me, Mike!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ.

     

     

    August 13, 2021 at 1:05 pm#872746
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Personally, I believe that in the beginning Jesus was God. HE WASN’T THE MIGHTY GOD. I believe he WAS BEGOTTEN BY THE FATHER.

    If you don’t mind, I will replace the persons with Adam and Eve.

    Personally, I believe that in the beginning Eve was Adam. SHE WASN’T Adam himself. I believe she came from Adam.

    If you agree with this statement on Adam and Eve, just know there is a small error in there.

    Eve was NOT Adam. She was adam.

    August 13, 2021 at 2:50 pm#872747
    gadam123
    Participant

    Berean: Personally, I believe that in the beginning Jesus was God. HE WASN’T THE MIGHTY GOD. I believe he WAS BEGOTTEN BY THE FATHER.
    If you don’t mind, I will replace the persons with Adam and Eve.

    Proclaimer: Personally, I believe that in the beginning Eve was Adam. SHE WASN’T Adam himself. I believe she came from Adam.
    If you agree with this statement on Adam and Eve, just know there is a small error in there.

    Eve was NOT Adam. She was adam.

    This is nothing but Gibberish and wrestling with words. Christianity created mythologies on human Messiah.

    August 13, 2021 at 4:27 pm#872748
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The gibberish comes from not understanding Hebrew and Greek language coupled with Rome taking control of Christianity. From that point, pagan traditions merged with Christian tradition to arrive at a Christianity that is hardly recognisable from the original faith as it was handed down. Of course this was prophesied to happen. It’s part of God’s plan. Only the genuine will remain.

    Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

    And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

    gadam, it looks like you are one of the victims who fell away because of apostacy. You failed the test because your faith in God was not deep rooted.

    That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

    Jesus answers many of your questions directly. But because you have rejected him, you do not understand the plan of God.

    August 13, 2021 at 6:54 pm#872751
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    Eve was made from a rib of Adam ….
    Adam is human
    Eve is human

    In the beginning, the Son of God is of the same divine nature as God his Father: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient …

    At the incarnation, the two natures (divine and human) merged while being distinct.

    August 13, 2021 at 9:43 pm#872752
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Do you believe that Eve was adam?

    August 13, 2021 at 9:44 pm#872753
    gadam123
    Participant

    The gibberish comes from not understanding Hebrew and Greek language coupled with Rome taking control of Christianity. From that point, pagan traditions merged with Christian tradition to arrive at a Christianity that is hardly recognisable from the original faith as it was handed down. Of course this was prophesied to happen. It’s part of God’s plan. Only the genuine will remain.

    Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

    And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

    gadam, it looks like you are one of the victims who fell away because of apostacy. You failed the test because your faith in God was not deep rooted.

    Hi Proclaimer thanks for your reply to my post. I wonder what is the Apostasy here as every one claims his views are true? In my opinion the whole NT had deviated from it’s original religion. So how do you say one is victim of Apostasy?

    August 13, 2021 at 9:57 pm#872756
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer thanks for your reply to my post. I wonder what is the Apostasy here as every one claims his views are true? In my opinion the whole NT had deviated from it’s original religion. So how do you say one is victim of Apostasy?

    The writings are the truth. It contains the faith that was delivered to us. It’s not about me or another person having the truth. It is about understanding what has been written in scripture.

    Today, there has been a great departure from this and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that.

    For example, Jesus asked Peter who he was and Jesus commended his answer and built his Church upon that truth. Yet today, if you ask the same question, many would say that Jesus was God which is a completely different answer to the Jesus endorsed answer spoken by Peter. This is one difference. Look at his words and you will clearly see the answer is different. 2000 years later, it’s a completely different answer.

    When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
    They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
    “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
    Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
    I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
    Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

    August 13, 2021 at 11:36 pm#872757
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    Do you believe that Eve was adam? 

    Me

    Gen.5
    [1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
    [2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

    adam = human being (among others)
    Eve = human being = adam

    I think we agreed on this for a long time.

    August 14, 2021 at 2:49 am#872758
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Your getting closer to the truth,  in Paul’s prophesy about the return of Jesus, In 2 ths2, he tells us that Jesus will not return unless the  Apostate (the falling away from the truth comes first ) that took place more the 1700 years ago,  and became the main teaching of Christianity ever since ,  the main teaching of the “fallen church’s ,  both the Catholic and Protestant churches was the “DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY,”  which changes a Man, Jesus Christ into a God.  But that was only one part of what Paul said would take place before the return of Jesus. The other part has “YET”  to take place , that is that the Man of sin, “must”  be “revealed” .

    That hasn’t happened “YET”  ,  and that part is what I have tried so long to show you and others here for years now,  this is something you and all here need to be a part of ,“REVEALING”  who that man of sin is, then and only then will Jesus return.

     

    Proclaimer you are in a very unique position to  expose too the “world”  who it is.

    “The man of sin”  , is not a “real”  person,  it is a false “IMAGE” of  JESUS HIMSELF,  created by the APOSTATE CHURCHES .  this false “image” turns the man Jesus into a God , that breakers the first Commandment of God. “You shall have no God besides me, you shall make ” NO” “IMAGE” OF ME, in heaven above or earth beneath”.
    Making the “image ” of Jesus as our God and worshiping him as a God, creates him as false God.  It changes the image of him to the image of a “MAN OF SIN”  . 

    This is what it meant by “that day will not come unless there come a fallen away from the truth and that “man” of sin be revealed, the one who took his seat in the “TEMPLE OF GOD” AND IS BEING “WORSHIPED” AS A GOD.  

    Who is the “only” human being who sits in the True Temple of God “Now” and is being displayed and being worshiped as a God,  it is the “MAN”, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. 

    2 Ths 2 ,  it’s all there for those who have eyes to see it. 

    THIS MESSAGE PROCLAIMER, COULD SAVE A LOT OF LIVES, OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DECEIVED.   YOU ARE IN A VERY UNIQUE POSITION TO BE USED BY GOD THE FATHER TO GET THIS MESSAGE OUT THERE.  There are many who have not heard this message in fallen Christianity.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    August 14, 2021 at 3:52 am#872759
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    JESUS CHRIST IS not THE GOD ALLMIGHTY, BUT THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, AND HE , AT THE BIGINNING, HAD THE SAME NATURE AS HIS FATHER BEFORE HIS INCARNATION.ZND THE WORD OF GOD SAY US “HE TAKE UPON HIM THE FORM OF A HUMAN SERVANT”

    THIS IS NOT A HERETIC TEACHING, BUT THE PURE TRUTH OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

    👉But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. AMEN☀️

     

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