Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic has 25,924 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 2 days, 1 hour ago by GeneBalthrop.

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August 7, 2021 at 7:29 pm#872617
Berean
Participant
Hi Gadam
Confusion Come FROM men who don’t beleive the WORD OF GOD MADE FLESH AND HIS TESTIMONY.
At that time, Jesus said to the Pharisees, “I am going; you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot go. The Jews said, “Does he want to kill himself, then, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot go’? He replied, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. This is why I told you that you will die in your sins. Indeed, if you do not believe that I, I AM, you will die in your sins. “So they would ask him:” Who are you? Jesus answered them, “I kept telling you this. About you, I have a lot to say and to judge. Besides, the One who sent me speaks the truth, and what I have heard from him I am speaking for the world. They did not understand that he was talking to them about the Father. Jesus said to them: “When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will understand that I, I AM, and that I do nothing of myself; what I am saying here, I am saying it as the Father taught me. He who sent me is with me; he didn’t leave me alone, because I always do what pleases him. At these words of Jesus, many believed in him (John 8: 21-30)
August 8, 2021 at 2:35 am#872619
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean……In none of that did Jesus say he was alive before he ever came to this earth as a human or any other being. Neither does the ” I am” thing, mean Jesus is saying he is God either. You are one of those who Jesus said would come and say, “I am”, and deceive many”. Jesus know the deception in religion would be about who he really was , that is why he said that. That “MANY” would come and say what you are saying and deceive the “MANY” . That is why nearly all Christianity today is deceived , only a few in comparison really know the truth, you have been listening to the wrong ones Berean, IMO
You are living in carnal “mystery” religious concepts, that is what Jesus meant by being from below, Plutonian Carnel reasonings, like, man Gods, human being Gods etc, if you had the Spirit of Truth “in”, you then you would be from above, as all who have God the Fathers Spirit in them are. They see thing in a”real” sense, because of the Spirit of truth that abides “in” them , giving them a true “cognoscenti ” of things , not a “mysterious” ideological concepts as you and your trinitarian teachers do. .
Remember when Jesus said about his disciples, “they were not of this world and he was not either? He didn’t mean they were not in the world but, not “of ” it. Another words, ( coming from, the worlds perspectives) .
You and others here problem is you do not understand what it means to be from above, it is the same thing as saying you are being carnally minded not Spiritually minded, Jesus was talking about how he and they are thinking, are you either viewing things, through the spirit from above, are from the from the spirit of the earth, the Carmel religious earthly reasonings .
peace and love to you and yours……..gene

August 8, 2021 at 2:39 am#872620
Berean
Participant
Bla bla bla AND bla

August 8, 2021 at 6:38 am#872624
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Adam…..Question, was King Cyrus from above, was he caused to be by God, after all, he was “prophesied” by God over 200 years before his berth, God even named him right? , so did he come from God , was he even sent by God ? Or did God have anything to do with it at all?, I believe he both was from above and sent from above, the same thing applies to Jesus in my opinion. Even though they both were not alive nor existed, at the time they were both prophesied about. How else can yo understand it ADAM.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
August 8, 2021 at 6:46 am#872625
GeneBalthrop
Participant
LU…….Was King David a human being? SO, what makes You think Jesus wasn’t?
Did Jesus not say he was a SON OF MAN, around 80 times in scripture? it’s interesting why you would even question his “HUMANITY” .
peace and love to you and yours……….gene

August 8, 2021 at 6:58 am#872626
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: 1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.

Carmel: the above is only human reasoning!
As opposed to what? Do you possess some sort of non-human reasoning capabilities of which we are not aware?

Carmel: GOD THE FATHER GRANTED JESUS ALL POWER EVEN BEFORE CREATION…
We agree on the facts: God (the Most High) has granted His holy servant Jesus a bunch of power. In fact, none of God’s creations (of which Jesus himself says he is the beginning) have a lick of power on their own. Everyone’s power comes directly from God. Jesus is no different in that regard… although his and our God, YHWH, has granted Jesus a LOT more power than He’s granted anyone else.
So my factual assertion remains: Jesus has exactly the amount of power that his and our God granted him. No more, no less. And your own FACTUAL words above agree with me. It’s just that after you post the facts, you often descend into utterly nonsensical and non-scriptural personal interpretations that bear no resemblance to the truth we learn in the Bible.

August 8, 2021 at 7:14 am#872627
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Mike
WHAT THE FATHER “IS” THE SON IS ALSO, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING …. SINCE THE TIMES OF ETERNITY … AMEN!
IT’S CLEAR !?
HEBREWS 1: 3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person …..
Okay, let’s reason this out together, using the prophet Elijah as a makeshift example.
What Elijah is, his son is also, physically and spiritually speaking, right? And Elijah’s son could even be the spitting image of his dad, to the point that everyone tells him how much he reminds them of his dad, right? But Elijah’s son is NOT the PERSON of Elijah, right? And you have agreed that God’s son is NOT the PERSON of God, right? And since Elijah’s son is not the actual person of Elijah, then his son doesn’t know all the things Elijah knows. His son can’t automatically do miracles and healings and raise people from the dead like Elijah did, right?
You starting to see it yet?
God’s son is of the same substance of God – just like Elijah’s son is of the same substance of Elijah.
God’s son imitates his Father and is the spitting image of Him – just like Elijah’s son imitates his father and is the spitting image of him.
God’s son doesn’t know as much and isn’t as powerful as his Father – just like Elijah’s son doesn’t know as much and isn’t as powerful as his father.
Jesus is not the person of God, Berean, but one of the many holy servants OF God. This is what the scriptures teach.
Amen?
August 8, 2021 at 7:20 am#872628
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Micah: 5: 2
…. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The Hebrew words actually mean: “his origin is from days of old, ancient times”.
And you don’t even deny that, because you admit that Jesus is the only-begotten of God, right? Was God ever begotten by anyone, Berean? Was Jesus? Okay then, that should tell you that Jesus isn’t God.
Jesus was begotten + God wasn’t begotten = Jesus can’t possibly be God.
August 8, 2021 at 8:00 am#872629
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: It’s like saying that we live in a forest and the owner of the forest resides outside the forest. So no matter what direction you look while in the forest, you are looking toward the owners residence.
Ah… but the owner of the forest and his 24 managers don’t reside together everywhere “outside the forest”. The owner has a throne surrounded by 24 manager thrones at one specific location outside the forest. So if those thrones are east of your location, then you are NOT looking towards them when you look west, north, or south. You are only looking towards the owner and his managers when you are looking east… ONE direction only.
Do you think that when God’s angels come to present themselves before God (as in Job 1:6 for instance), there are myriads of angels going to billions of different locations to do that? Is God’s throne surrounded by the 24 elder thrones and the 4 creatures located in all different directions from your location on the ball earth? You can argue that “God is everywhere” (which is a misunderstanding of scripture), but what about the 24 elders, Jesus on a throne to God’s right, and the 4 creatures who are in His presence at all times? Are they also “everywhere” at once?
Hopefully you can see how your analogy fails, and therefore how your argument for a ball earth equally fails. God is ABOVE us. And God is only in one place – His throne in heaven. So either God is above you and BELOW Kathi (she must look at the ground to gaze towards Him), or you and Kathi both live on the flat, stationary plane described in scripture, and each of you can look ABOVE your heads towards God at the same time.
Proclaimer: And most language in the Bible is from our perspective because it is written for us. So yes, from our perspective I look up and you look up. There is nothing in scripture and science that says this is exactly the same direction is there. It is relative.
There is nothing that even SUGGESTS that “up” is a relative term in scripture. Nor is there anything in scripture that says the writers of Bible were only making stuff up about how they understood the world from their own limited perspective. Rather, they wrote of things God Himself showed them, and often they would be speaking by God’s Holy Spirit (Matt 22:43-44).
Which brings me to the question you keep refusing to answer: King David (quite possibly speaking in the Spirit) said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth. Was King David (and possibly the Holy Spirit) LYING? Yes or No?
Proclaimer: You do a huge disservice to yourself with this flat earth teaching. When people feel convicted by what you say about God and Jesus etc, they will remember your teachings on the Flat Earth and brush all that you say off.
What I say about God and Jesus comes directly from the scriptures. What I say about the shape of our world also comes directly from the same scriptures.
So maybe YOU should be worried about people brushing you off because you say scriptural things about God, but completely unscriptural things about the world that God Himself described for us.
August 8, 2021 at 8:09 am#872630
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: GOD THE FATHER IS BIGGER THAN THE SON IN THE SENSE THAT HE IS BEFORE THE BEGOTTEN SON. AS A HUMAN FATHER IS BEFORE HIS CHILDREN HE BEGET.
That is 100% scriptural. Amen! But just so you know, you can eliminate “THE FATHER” from the first sentence, and it would still be 100% scriptural…
GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…
Two persons. Only one of them is THE God. The other is THE God’s holy servant, Jesus.
August 8, 2021 at 8:21 am#872631
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: David, the writer of this Psalm 110, calls his descendant “my Lord” and is shown that his “Lord” will sit at the right hand of YHVH. The million dollar question is how is it that David calls his son “Lord?”
The question has been put to you, Gene… by Kathi AND by Jesus himself in Matt 22:45.
You say Jesus is strictly from the loins of David. But if Jesus is David’s descendant only – how is it that David referred to him as “my Lord”?
August 8, 2021 at 8:22 am#872632
Berean
Participant
Mike
Jesus is not the person of God, Berean, but one of the many holy servants OF God. This is what the scriptures teach.
Amen?
ME
No, not AMEN
JESUS IS: see HEBREWS1:3
Meditate on it
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
August 8, 2021 at 8:30 am#872633
Berean
Participant
Mike
Jesus was begotten + God wasn’t begotten = Jesus can’t possibly be God.
Me
It’s as if you deny that a human son begotten by his human father, IS NOT HUMAN
THE SON OF GOD HAS INHERITED EVERYTHING FROM THE FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE
OMNISCIENCE
OMNIPRESENCE
AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”
August 8, 2021 at 8:38 am#872634
Berean
Participant
Mike

That is 100% scriptural. Amen! But just so you know, you can eliminate “THE FATHER” from the first sentence, and it would still be 100% scriptural…
GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…
Two persons. Only one of them is THE God. The other is THE God’s holy servant, Jesus.
Me
The FATHER IS bigger the Son IN AGE, NOT IN GLOBAL POWER
See AGAIN HEBREWS 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

August 8, 2021 at 3:43 pm#872635
Proclaimer
Participant
Ah… but the owner of the forest and his 24 managers don’t reside together everywhere “outside the forest”. The owner has a throne surrounded by 24 manager thrones at one specific location outside the forest. So if those thrones are east of your location, then you are NOT looking towards them when you look west, north, or south. You are only looking towards the owner and his managers when you are looking east… ONE direction only.
I’ll play along with the 2 dimensional analogy.
The holy city has a gate in the east, west, north, and south.
And did you mention already what is below hades and the deep? Or does that continue forever? Just endless water.
August 8, 2021 at 3:56 pm#872636
Proclaimer
Participant
What would be a better example to demonstrate that Lord (adon Strong’s 113) is not always a human ruler, Proclaimer, since you think there could be a better example?
Or that it just means ruler. And if it is God, you would define that or say YHWH.
Like the word king. There are many kings. But if you were referring to King Jesus, you would likely stipulate that if the context didn’t do that. Otherwise you could confuse the hearers to think it might be another king.
But you are essentially making the argument that it is Jesus because he is a king. That is too much of an assumption to make.
August 8, 2021 at 4:01 pm#872637
Proclaimer
Participant
There is nothing that even SUGGESTS that “up” is a relative term in scripture. Nor is there anything in scripture that says the writers of Bible were only making stuff up about how they understood the world from their own limited perspective. Rather, they wrote of things God Himself showed them, and often they would be speaking by God’s Holy Spirit (Matt 22:43-44).
Let me educate you. If I climb up the property ladder then that means I’m upgrading my one story house for a two story house right?
Up means higher. Higher doesn’t always mean against gravity. You don’t even believe in gravity, yet it is essential to your definitions and perspective.
August 9, 2021 at 1:37 am#872647
gadam123
Participant
Adam…..Question, was King Cyrus from above, was he caused to be by God, after all, he was “prophesied” by God over 200 years before his berth, God even named him right? , so did he come from God , was he even sent by God ? Or did God have anything to do with it at all?, I believe he both was from above and sent from above, the same thing applies to Jesus in my opinion. Even though they both were not alive nor existed, at the time they were both prophesied about. How else can yo understand it ADAM.
Hi brother Gene, Your example of Persian King Cyrus with Jesus the supposed Messiah is quite amazing. In fact Second (Deutero) Isaiah quoted him as Messiah (Anointed) in Chap 45. He was a non-Israelite (Pagan) King who was favourable to Jewish Exiles for their return to build the Temple in Jerusalem. Yes he is comparable to the future Messiah who too will be a human being unlike the Christian non-human Messiah. Messiah ‘Coming down from above’ is some thing mythological creation of the NT writers which is foreign to Hebrew Bible.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam
August 9, 2021 at 2:17 am#872648
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Adam……… Yes Cyrus was a anointed servant of God, Just as Moses, all the prophets and yes even Jesus, they were all human servants of God, led by his Holy Spirit , to do his will. They were all human beings.
Our difference I believe, is you no longer believe Jesus was the Messiah, that was prophesied to come, I believe scripture shows he certainly was, and had to accomplish other things then just be the Messiah of the Jews,and do what they wanted. What scriptures say he can only appear “ONCE” , I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT IN Any SCRIPTURE HAVE YOU ?
The Messiah could come and go many times , his mission , could change every time he actually appears . Where does it say Jesus have to perform his “whole” commission while he was here the first time on this earth, but that certainly is not saying he will not finish it when he returns, right? He fulfilled what was prophesied for him to do at his first coming, and will fulfill what he is commissioned to do at his second coming also.
ADAM , the Jew have every reason to reject him , because he didn’t do what they wanted him to do for them at his first appearance , but his first mission was not “just” for the Jews or Israel, but for all of mankind, the Jews being just a drop in the bucket of mankind and the nation of Israel.
Also the Jews have to deal with the fact they killed him, so naturally they reject him then, as they do now, why would they admit they were wrong and the murders of the true Messiah, our lord Jesus Christ.
Be careful Adam to not get caught up, in to much of their rejection of Jesus our lord, they will someday repent and be greave sorrily, at him who they rejected, and rejecting him Adam, is also Rejecting him who sent him brother.
Peace and love to you and your Adam ……………gene
August 9, 2021 at 4:47 am#872650
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Agreed. The Father is greater than the Son because the Father as in a father/son relationship naturally has authority over his son. However the father and son would be equal in the type of being that they are.
But Jesus’ God and Father is also our God and Father, right? We are also His children, who were created in His likeness, right? Yet we are not equal in type of being. So we can’t apply our own experience of flesh entities begetting like kinds to the one and only uncreated Most High God producing children – because an uncreated entity couldn’t possibly beget another uncreated entity. The latter would have a beginning/origin. So Jesus could be “equal in type” as far as being a spirit entity, but then so are all of God’s other spirit sons.
Consider the priest Melchizedek in the scriptures…
Heb 7:3… Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life…
Melchizedek is a mystery to us, but what if he married and begat a son? Would his son also be “without father or mother… without beginning” just because his father had those qualities?
No, his son would be equal in type, but would not have those other qualities. It is the same with Jesus. Our heavenly Father has no father or beginning. His firstborn Son has both a Father and a beginning.
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