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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 5, 2021 at 7:10 am#872573
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    I agree that LORD in all caps is YHVH and never only a human ruler. I disagree that LORD written in all caps is how the translators indicate the Hebrew word adonai. I also disagree that adon is ONLY for human rulers and I will show you one of several proofs of that:

    Isaiah 10:33

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is lopping a branch with violence, And the high of stature are cut down, And the lofty are become low,…

    That word Lord in Isaiah 10:33 is the word adon. Now do you still want to tell me that adon is only referring to human rulers, Gene?

    August 5, 2021 at 7:55 am#872575
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……very simple , they were “messengers” of God,  both Jesus and Paul were. Human messengers.  Not angelic beings, as you falsely assume.

    t seems to me IT’S NOT SIMPLE AT ALL SINCE YOU DID’T UNDERSTAND WHAT PAUL SAID AND MEANT!

    READ AGAIN:

    Galatians 4:12 Be ye as I, because I also am as you: brethren, I beseech you: you have not injured me at all. 13And you know, how through infirmity of the flesh, I preached the gospel to you heretofore: and your temptation in my flesh,

     14You despised not, nor rejected:

    but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    August 6, 2021 at 2:38 am#872584
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….. I even told you how many times both those words were written in the Hebrew text,  why not make a true search, and check it out , it’s on the internet for all to see, if they truly want to.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    August 6, 2021 at 9:22 am#872587
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You wrote:

    When the singular adon is used , it usually refers to a human lord , Adon is used 215 times referring to men.

    Do you see that word “usually” Gene? That means that adon doesn’t always refer to a human lord. Therefore, you can not say that the adon in Psalm 110:1 is a human ruler just because it is adon. Adon can also mean a non-human lord. I gave you a perfect example of this in my last post to you.

    Isaiah 10:33

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is lopping a branch with violence, And the high of stature are cut down, And the lofty are become low,…

    That word Lord in Isaiah 10:33 is the word adon obviously not meaning a human ruler there. It is not the word adonai, Strong’s #136.

    See for yourself:

    Screen Shot 2021-08-04 at 2.48.11 PM

    See that little blue number #113 above “the Lord”, that is adon, not Strong’s #136 which is adonai.

    August 6, 2021 at 10:43 am#872588
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: As far as what is thine are mine , that is also simple “ALL things are God the Fathers, and he made them for US,  the future heirs of them, just the same as Jesus,  or haven’t you ever read “we ARE “JOINT” HEIRS WITH Jesus Christ.”  And what Heb2 says. .  God the father gives everything on this earth for all of mankind,  even the “MAN” Jesus Christ. Just another proof of Jesus’ actual human existence, even now. IMO

     

    Me: NO Gene, IT’S NOT SIMPLE AT ALL, FOR GOD’S SAKE,

    YOU ARE COMPLETELY CONFUSED AND LOST IN YOU CARNAL REASONING I’M AFRAID, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    WOULD YOU READ PLEASE AGAIN AND UNDERSTAND WHAT JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT!

    John17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me:

    because they are thine: 

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS REFERRED TO THE APOSTLES. WHO ORIGINALLY WERE GOD’S ANGELS AND WERE GIVEN TO JESUS TO ESTABLISH HIS CHURCH AND PROCLAIM HIS GOSPEL ON EARTH. Well clear in Zacharia 3:6-7

    THEN JESUS CONTINUED AND SAID:

    10And all my things are thine,

    NOW ATTENTION Gene, WHAT ARE ALL JESUS’ HUMAN THINGS , and with Jesus’  SPIRITUAL task on earth became also the FATHER’S, once Jesus glorified and became one substance with the Holy Ghost?

    Well mentioned by Jesus in

    John16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.  Therefore I said, that he shall RECEIVE OF MINE, and show it to you.

    NOW TO THE NEXT ONE:

    and thine are mine;

    TELL ME Gene, WHAT ARE ALL GOD’S SPIRITUAL THINGS WHICH BECAME JESUS’ THINGS ONCE JESUS GLORIFIED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST?

    NOW TO THE LAST MOST VITAL STATEMENT Gene:

    and I am glorified in them. 

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS DECLARED THAT:

    ONLY HE IS GLORIFIED BOTH IN ALL THE SPIRITUAL THINGS OF THE FATHER AND ALSO IN

    ALL THE HUMAN THINGS OF THE SON OF MAN, ONCE HE GLORIFIED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!John13:31-32

    GOT IT Gene?

    NOW WHETHER YOU BELEIVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON,

    WHEN JESUS AFTER HIS RESURRECTION MANIFESTED HIMSELF IN FRONT OF HIS DISCIPLES

    IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY,

    THOUGH HE WAS VISIBLE  IN THE FLESH ALRIGHT, HE ALSO WAS EQUIVALENTLY

    SPIRIT.

    1 Peter 3:18Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in THE FLESH, but enlivened in

    THE SPIRIT, 

    19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: (HELL)

    THUS, DESPITE HE DIED IN HIS FLESH, HE LOST NOTHING BOTH OF HIS SPIRIT, AND HIS FLESH IN FACT

    HE INTEGRATED THEM INTO ONE SUBSTANCE

    AND HE MAKES USE OF BOTH AS HE SEES FIT. Well confirmed by Jesus in

    John 6: 39Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me,

    I should lose nothing;

    but should raise it up again on the last day. 

    ON HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH WHEN HE DIED ON  THE CROSS.

    John13:31-32When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified,

    and God is glorified in him. 

    32If God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him in himself;

    and immediately (ON HIS DEATH) will he glorify him.

    YOU: Jesus is not a God, nor a Angelic being, nor is he a “spirit being, no more the we are.”

    ME: SO ACCORDING TO YOUR CRNAL REASONING  JESUS DIDN’T GLORIFIED AT ALL! AND JESUS LIED IN JOHN`3:31 -32!

    ,  there is not  a single text that say Jesus is now a spirit being, of any kind,

    ME: Well, THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE SPEAKS BY ITSELF THE TRUTH Mr. Gene.

    but God is SPIRIT , and Jesus is not,  

    Just as Jesus himself “clearly” said.

    ME: IT’S NOT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOUR CARNAL MENTALITY I’M AFRAID!READ:

    Luke 24:39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 6, 2021 at 7:37 pm#872591
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    That word Lord in Isaiah 10:33 is the word adon obviously not meaning a human ruler there. It is not the word adonai, Strong’s #136.

    Sounds like it could be any ruler. Perhaps even angels. Mostly men by the sound of it.

    August 6, 2021 at 7:39 pm#872592
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Do you see that word “usually” Gene? That means that adon doesn’t always refer to a human lord. Therefore, you can not say that the adon in Psalm 110:1 is a human ruler just because it is adon. Adon can also mean a non-human lord. I gave you a perfect example of this in my last post to you.

    Without looking into it, it sounds like the majority of the time it is not.

    And your example of it being used of YHWH is not the best example because it tells you which Lord, therefore of course you can use the general word if you are defining which Lord.

    Simarly, I could say that God is a spirit but so are angels. But when I say the Father of Spirits, then yes it is God. You generally would not refer to God as a spirit unless you qualified which Spirit. In the sense that you wouldn’t say that a Spirit answered my prayer. You might say the Father of Spirits.

    Does this help?

    August 6, 2021 at 7:47 pm#872594
    carmel
    Participant

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is

    the One who is the most powerful. 

    ME: PERFECT Mike! FROM A HUMAN’S POINT OF VIEW!

    The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    ME NOT PERFECT Mike, from A HUMAN’S POINT OF VIEW  I’M AFRAID.

    HOW MANY TIMES I MADE IT CLEAR TO YOU AND TO Gene, and Jodi, 

    NOT TO PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS?

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    NOW TO YOUR HUMAN PERCEPTION! 

    NOT PERFECT!

    YOU: Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him.  No more, and no less.

    ME: POOR Mike,

    Read hereunder scripture:

    King David also said: Call me Sadoc the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Banaias the son of Joiada. And when they were come in before the king, 33He said to them: Take with you the servants of your lord, and set my son Solomon upon my mule: and bring him to Gihon. 

    34And let Sadoc the priest, and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and you shall sound the trumpet, and shall say:

    God save king Solomon.

     35And you shall come up after him, and he shall come, and shall sit upon my throne, and he shall reign in my stead: and I will appoint him to be ruler over Israel, and over Juda. 

    36And Banaias the son of Joiada answered the king, saying:

    Amen: so say the Lord the God of my lord the king. 

    37As the Lord hath been with my lord the king, so be he with Solomon,

    and make his throne higher than the throne of my lord king David.

    Mike JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE HIGHEST, HIGHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY,

    FOR THE PLEASURE OF GOD THE FATHER. AS PROOF THAT

    HE TOPPLED SATAN’S PLAN IN FULL AND FOR ETERNITY AND FROM JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS

    GOD IN JESUS BECAME 

    GODMAN ON EARTH MOST POWERFUL EVER OVER THE ENTIRE COSMOS!

    AND AS MUCH AS KING DAVID APPOINTED SOLOMON KING AND SOLE RULER OVER HIS KINGDOM, DAVID’S,  AND SLEPT. THE LONG SLEEP.

    ALMIGHTY GOD ALSO APPOINTED JESUS CHRIST

    KING AND SOLE RULER OVER  THE ENTIRE WORK OF GOD, AND HIS KINGDOM, IN

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN, 

     AND SLEPT IN HIS LONGEST REST TILL THE DAY OF THE LORD.

    JUST READ AGAIN YOUR PERCEPTION AND IN CONTRAST  GOD’S  IN SCRIPTURE Mike: AND RESPECT GOD ‘S PERFECT WAYS

    YOU: The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.

    ME: PERFECT AS MUCH AS DAVID WAS! AND SLEPT!

    YOU: The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    ME: NOT PERFECT THIS TIME, IN FACT IT’S A LIE!

    Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him. 

    No more, and no less.

    POOR MIKE! READ

    37As the Lord hath been with my lord the king,

    so be he with Solomon,

    and make his throne

    higher than the throne of my lord king David.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 6, 2021 at 8:38 pm#872596
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

    Go…. open wide the ears of your Heart ❤️ and listen

    August 7, 2021 at 2:55 am#872599
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..Your not facing the truth, and I know why , because if you truly believed that the word “Adon” means a human ruler , then you would have to admit , David was speaking of  Jesus as a human ruler.  That would shatter your true conception of who Jesus is.  BUT remember Jesus himself said in Revelations who he was,  “the human root and offspring of king David “.  So please give this some serious consideration. It will help you, IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    August 7, 2021 at 3:13 am#872600
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    BUT remember Jesus himself said in Revelations who he was,  “the human root and offspring of king David “. 

    Me

    This is its human origin that nobody here ignores …. But you put aside its divine origin to your disadvantage because if you believed it would open the horizon for you ….

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:38)

    August 7, 2021 at 6:09 am#872603
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Call no man on earth your father but one is your Father who is in heaven.  We all can from heaven , yes all humanity has.  But you chose to make mankind a sub species, and Jesus a complete different pieces then we are, even though haven told us exactly what that different species is yet,  please produce , scriptural proof of just what was that species , who Jesus said he was,  if you can.

    You disdain at God the Fathers human creation, is evident by you own words,  tell then why does scripture say “it behaved “him”,  to be made like unto his “brethren”.  How could it “behave him” , what advantage would being made like us,  profit or behave “him” ? 
    Could it be that he, Jesus,  and God the Father, see’s humanity as far more important,  then Satan and all his followers do?
    “the big fact that God actually made us (mankind) , in his , VERY OWN “IMAGE” , and has put “ALL” THINGS, UNDER ALL MANKIND’S  FEET? . Heb 2  ,

    Could that be the reason Satan and his followers, despise and reject mankind?  What your not understanding  is Satan wants you to move Jesus away from the rest of mankind,  he want’s us all to think Jesus is different then we are, exactly as you and others here are doing. why?,  because he does not want you to believe your potential is exactly as Jesus’ is?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    August 7, 2021 at 7:14 am#872604
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I don’t see why you are telling me about all this … THE QUESTION IS TO KNOW IF CHRIST COMES FROM HEAVEN WHERE HE WAS WITH HIS FATHER WHO SENT HIM TO EARTH FOR A SPECIAL MISSION: TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL, IT’S NOT NOTHING …

    August 7, 2021 at 8:42 am#872605
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    We all can from heaven  

    Me

    No ,no AND no….

    It makes no sense….

     

    You say this because you do not accept the reality of the simple truth … JESUS COMES FROM THE PLACE THE BIBLE CALLED “HEAVEN” WHERE IS GOD THE FATHER.

    I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

    August 7, 2021 at 8:56 am#872606
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: What your not understanding  is Satan wants you to move Jesus away from the rest of mankind,  he want’s us all to think Jesus is different then we are, exactly as you and others here are doing. why?,

     because he does not want you to believe your potential

    is exactly as Jesus’ is?

    Gene, HERE IS SCRIPTURE:

    John 15: 1 I AM the true vine;

    and my Father is the husbandman.

     2Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away:

    and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 

    NOW ATTENTION Gene in order to see that 

    OUR POTENTIAL IS NOT ONLY NOT AS JESUS IS, BUT WE ARE TOTALLY DEPENDABLE ON JESUS!

    3Now you are clean by reason of the word,

    which I have spoken to you.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL Gene, THE ABOVE IS THE FIRST PROOF THAT WE ARE DEPENDABLE ON JESUS!

    HE SPOKE HIS WORD AND BY HIS WORD, OF GOD, WE BECAME CLEAN!

     4Abide in me, and I in you.

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,

    unless it abide in the vine,

    WE AS HUMANS, MERE BRANCHES, ARE NOTHING ON OUR OWN Gene, 

    WE ARE USELESS WITHOUT THE VINE, JESUS!READ:

    so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

    GOT IT GENE, DO YOU WANT MORE PROOF IN ORDER TO GET IT INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND THAT JESUS’ POTENTIAL IS NOT ONLY SUPERIOR TO US BUT 

    WE ARE TOTALLY  DEPENDABLE ON HIM. KEEP ON READING:

     5I am the vine; you the branches:

    Gene, it’s PURE CLEAR AND SIMPLE ENGLISH THE WAY YOU BELEIVE IN

    ONLY AS LONG AS IT PLEASES YOU THOUGH!

    ANSWER Gene:

    IS THE VINE  DEPENDABLE ON THE BRACHES OR 

    THE BRANCHES ARE DEPENDABLE ON THE VINE?

    NO YOU WON’T ANSWER SO HERE IS THE ANSWER, READ:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    GET THIS INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND,

    YOU, LIKE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    ARE NOTHING WITHOUT JESUS, Gene!

     YOU DON’T ONLY KNOW

    WHO JESUS IS, BUT ALSO 

    WHO YOU ARE I’M AFRAID!

    Isaiah 40:7The grass is withered, and the dower is fallen, because the spirit of the Lord hath blown upon it.

    Indeed the people is grass:

    8The grass is withered,

    and the flower is fallen: 

    but the word (JESUS, THE SON OF MAN) of our Lord

    endureth for ever.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 7, 2021 at 8:58 am#872607
    Berean
    Participant

    I came forth FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world:

    AGAIN,

    I leave the world, and GO TO THE FATHER. (John 16:28).

    August 7, 2021 at 9:20 am#872608
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: We all came from heaven , yes all humanity has. 

    ME: You are completely lost , Gene, and ignoring completely

    PURE CLEAR SCRIPTUR! Read;

    John 8:23 And he said to them:

    You are from beneath,

    I am from above.

    You are of this world,

    I am not of this world. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 7, 2021 at 1:19 pm#872610
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    “the human root and offspring of king David “

    Please show me where that is in the Bible specifically with the word “human.”

    August 7, 2021 at 1:53 pm#872611
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    You said:

    And your example of it being used of YHWH is not the best example because it tells you which Lord, therefore of course you can use the general word if you are defining which Lord.

    What would be a better example to demonstrate that Lord (adon Strong’s 113) is not always a human ruler, Proclaimer, since you think there could be a better example?

    Here is an example of the word Lord (adon Strong’s 113) applied to the angel and also “the Lord of all the earth.”

    Zech 6:4 So I inquired of the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my Lord (adon Strong’s 113)?”5And the angel told me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth from their station before the Lord (adon Strong’s 113) of all the earth. 6The one with the black horses is going toward the land of the north, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.” 7As the strong horses went out, they were eager to go and patrol the earth; and the LORD said, “Go and patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth.

    This is yet another strike out for Gene.

    August 7, 2021 at 2:03 pm#872612
    gadam123
    Participant

    I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

    This is the big mythology created by the writer of Fourth Gospel stating that the so called Messiah came down from heaven for which there is no proof in the Hebrew Bible. This is the reason why there is much confusion and havoc in this Forum.

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