Home Questions & Answers Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth? Page 1,133

Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • July 18, 2021 at 3:54 pm#872196
    gadam123
    Participant

    So I say again… there is no need for the word “LIE” to ever leave your mouth in reference to anyone on this site – as if you know their heart or intent. And there is no need for you to talk down to anyone here – as if you have more “Holy Spirit” than them or enlightenment or whatever.  You do fine making solid scriptural based arguments here.  Just stick to that, and leave the personal attacks out of it.

    I think that is a gentle man’s agreement.

    July 18, 2021 at 5:42 pm#872199
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam: In the Hebrew Bible ‘son of God’ never meant a literal divine being as imagined by the NT writers.

    Gen 6:2… the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

    Deut 32:8… When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

    Job 1:6… One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

    Job 38… Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth… while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Shall I go on?  Will you claim that these sons of God are human beings?

    Sorry my post on son of God with examples given was about human being called as son of God and not about spirit beings or angelic beings as you rightly mentioned. The context was about Messiah who was meant to be a human being as per the Hebrew Bible. Hope that will remove the confusion.

    July 18, 2021 at 5:51 pm#872200
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam:  The book of Daniel is a non-prophetic book in the Hebrew Bible written in 2nd BCE by a pseudo writer.

    Proof please?

    Dating of Daniel as per the Historians
    The Book of Daniel is a 2nd-century BCE biblical apocalypse with an ostensible 6th century BCE setting. The prophecies of Daniel are accurate down to the career of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and oppressor of the Jews, but not in its prediction of his death: the author seems to know about Antiochus’ two campaigns in Egypt (169 and 167 BCE), the desecration of the Temple (the “abomination of desolation”), and the fortification of the Akra (a fortress built inside Jerusalem), but he seems to know nothing about the reconstruction of the Temple or about the actual circumstances of Antiochus’ death in late 164 BCE. Chapters 10–12 must therefore have been written between 167 and 164 BCE. There is no evidence of a significant time lapse between those chapters and chapters 8 and 9, and chapter 7 may have been written just a few months earlier again.

    Further evidence of the book’s date is in the fact that Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible’s canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BCE, and the Wisdom of Sirach, a work dating from around 180 BCE, draws on almost every book of the Old Testament except Daniel, leading scholars to suppose that its author was unaware of it. Daniel is, however, quoted in a section of the Sibylline Oracles commonly dated to the middle of the 2nd century BCE, and was popular at Qumran at much the same time, suggesting that it was known from the middle of that century.

    Hope this will answer your query.

    July 18, 2021 at 7:01 pm#872205
    gadam123
    Participant

    I never made any such claim.  I claim that flesh and blood (also known as “flesh and bone” – both of which are poetic ways of saying “human being”) cannot see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God.  If Jesus is a human being, then he’s ineligible.

    As for the new bodies of those who will receive eternal life…

    1 Cor 15…

    38But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

    40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.

    44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body….

    It seems to me that the Gospel writers were not agreeing to Paul’s view on the resurrection. The resurrected body of Jesus seemed to be the recitation of his crucified body as per the Fourth Gospel. John 20:

    27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.”

    Luke 24:

    39 Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet..

     

     

    July 19, 2021 at 2:54 am#872206
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……I read it as the perishable,  spiritually energized can replicate itself over and over endlessly. So in that sense ” this perishable becomes ” imperishable “.

    The sown seed becomes another body of it’s “own” kind,  not a different kind,  so is it with the resurrection brother .  Why do you think scriptures say “for ever hair on you head is numbered,  if it weren’t Needed  for replication.  Think about it Mike.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    July 19, 2021 at 3:18 am#872208
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  I think that is a gentle man’s agreement.

    Agreed. 👍

    July 19, 2021 at 3:20 am#872209
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Sorry my post on son of God with examples given was about human being called as son of God and not about spirit beings or angelic beings as you rightly mentioned. The context was about Messiah who was meant to be a human being as per the Hebrew Bible. Hope that will remove the confusion.

    Adam, is it true that the Hebrews were expecting this coming messiah to be born of a virgin?

     

    July 19, 2021 at 3:41 am#872210
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  The Book of Daniel is a 2nd-century BCE biblical apocalypse with an ostensible 6th century BCE setting… he seems to know nothing about the reconstruction of the Temple or about the actual circumstances of Antiochus’ death in late 164 BCE. Chapters 10–12 must therefore have been written between 167 and 164 BCE. 

    …Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible’s canon of the prophets, which… draws on almost every book of the Old Testament except Daniel, leading scholars to suppose that its author was unaware of it. 

    Hope this will answer your query.

    My query was for proof.  This is supposition.  The latter paragraph even points out that Daniel isn’t the only OT prophet left out of the canon.  And the former part assumes that Antiochus is the abomination of desolation to whom Daniel referred – and therefore Daniel’s prophecy was wrong.  Jesus doesn’t make that same assumption…

    Matthew 24:15-16… So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

    Jesus said that the abomination of desolation was still yet to come.  Some (preterists) think he came in 70 AD.  I am not a preterist.  I believe that the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy is still forthcoming.

    July 19, 2021 at 3:52 am#872212
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: It seems to me that the Gospel writers were not agreeing to Paul’s view on the resurrection. The resurrected body of Jesus seemed to be the recitation of his crucified body

    There is no disagreement, Adam.  Read my response to Gene in the second to the last post on page 806.

    Bottom line, Jesus was indeed raised from the dead in the same body in which he died.  He dwelled on earth for 30 more days in that flesh body, and then ascended to heaven in front of the disciples.  Since he was raised from the dead in flesh, and flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God (where Jesus is now), then Jesus’ flesh body had to have been transformed at some point during his ascension from earth to heaven.  Paul talks about this transformation from flesh to spiritual bodies in 1 Cor 15 – and mentions his eagerness to have his own lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like Jesus now has in Phil 3:21.

    All of this was in the aforementioned post.  Please go back and read it.

    July 19, 2021 at 4:17 am#872213
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike… The sown seed becomes another body of it’s “own” kind,  not a different kind,  so is it with the resurrection brother. 

    I don’t see how you could conclude that it would be another body of it’s own kind, when Paul’s entire teaching was about how the heavenly body is DIFFERENT than the earthly body.  Paul even uses the word “changed” to make his point…

    We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

    Doesn’t the word “changed” mean that our bodies will be different – as in “not the same”?  Paul also says…

    who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    We currently have lowly bodies made from the dust of the earth.  Heavenly bodies are not lowly bodies that are made from the dust of the earth.  In Phil 3:21 above, Paul is eager to have his lowly flesh and blood earthly body TRANSFORMED into a glorious heavenly body like the one Jesus has now.  Transformed means it will be DIFFERENT than what we currently have… not the same.  And we also know from that verse that Jesus can’t still have the flesh body he had on earth anymore – because Paul wouldn’t be calling a beaten down flesh body with holes in it a “glorious body”, right?  Plus, we also know that flesh cannot see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God.

    July 19, 2021 at 4:57 am#872214
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam, is it true that the Hebrews were expecting this coming messiah to be born of a virgin?

    Sorry no such expectation of Virgin born Messiah by the Hebrews please.

    July 19, 2021 at 5:03 am#872216
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day.

    Clue. He is the image of the invisible God. He is the Word. He speaks on behalf of God. He represents God. The Messenger of God.

    July 19, 2021 at 5:05 am#872217
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Sorry no such expectation of Virgin born Messiah by the Hebrew please.

    Young girl.

    July 19, 2021 at 5:22 am#872218
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike, I believed and still believe you were and are teaching lies on that subject. I even spelled out that to teach lies, one must be an intenional liar or deceived. I never said which category. That is between you and God and not for me to judge.

    Please explain why this summation is wrong?

    Are you open to the possibility that the earth is not flat? If yes, and you are wrong, then you were either intentionally lying or were deceived, right?

    What other options are there?

    I stand by what I have said about lies because it is true what I am saying about lies. And yes, all lies have a source just as truth does. Scripture teaches us that there is a father of lies.

    I am simply pointing out to you the fact that our words and teachings matter. It’s serious. Teaching lies is bad. Really bad.

    Nothing good comes from a lie. It is the devil’s work. It’s no lighthearted or laughing matter.

    It doesn’t matter if you are offended by my words if they are true. What matters is lies are exposed to light. The truth matters Mike. You can adjust your feelings accordingly, but truth is an immovable rock.

    July 19, 2021 at 5:31 am#872220
    gadam123
    Participant

    Since he was raised from the dead in flesh, and flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God (where Jesus is now), then Jesus’ flesh body had to have been transformed at some point during his ascension from earth to heaven.

    Sorry I think this is another speculation which is not found in the NT.

    July 19, 2021 at 5:38 am#872221
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The NT teaches about the natural body and spiritual body. How we imagine that is up for grabs. But it is part of the NT.

    July 19, 2021 at 5:40 am#872222
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer said:

    Clue. He is the image of the invisible God. He is the Word. He speaks on behalf of God. He represents God. The Messenger of God.

    You have probably heard the saying that goes something like this:

    If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, has the name “duck,” is it not a duck?

    If the Son of God looks like the theos, talks like the theos, acts like the theos, has the name “theos,” is He not also the theos?

    July 19, 2021 at 5:53 am#872225
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Nature is not idetity.

    Eve is adam, but not Adam or the adam.

    The duck parable is about nature. It’s not about a particular duck. Its not saying, for us there is one supreme duck called Daffy.

    But it is written that for us there is one God the Father. This is true.

    July 19, 2021 at 6:29 am#872228
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….It’s a different body then the one buried,  but just like that seed planted it have every genetic code the PREEXISTING BODY HAD,  so when planted it (replicates the exact same body it came from) not a different “kind” of body.   Even nature shows us all that.  The seed in the man will replicate the physical body of the exact man who it possessed .

    “Now if the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead , dwell in you (it or he) that raised  Christ from the “dead’ shall also quicken your  ‘Mortal’   “BODY’ ,  BY THE SAME “SPIRIT”  that dwells in you>  get it Mike, it is the same body made over again ,  a body that lets the Spirit that is in it go where it list’s (wants to go)  .  Our bodies are what carries our spirits where they want to go.  “Know you not that your bodies are the “Temples” of the living God” ?

    Mike think about it.
    By the way Mike I really don’t  think, any of us are trying to mislead or lie deliberately t0 each other here either , think we all are perrty truthful about what we are thinking .  We may not always be right though,  we all have a lot of Growing to do,  “except me” ,  LOL .  

    peace and love to you and your………..gene

    July 19, 2021 at 6:30 am#872229
    Lightenup
    Participant

    How about this then, Proclaimer:

    YHVH is the particular name of a theos who is the First and the Last, the King of Israel, the Maker of Heaven and Earth, the Redeemer, the Good Shepherd, the Lord of lords, the Savior, the Giver of everlasting life, and the Forgiver of sins.

    Jesus is the particular name of a theos who is the First and the Last, the King of Israel, the Maker of Heaven and Earth, the Redeemer, the Good Shepherd, the Lord of lords, the Savior, the Giver of everlasting life, and the Forgiver of sins.

    Are both of those statements correct? If not, please explain what is not correct.

    Thanks!

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