Home Questions & Answers Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth? Page 1,132

Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • July 18, 2021 at 6:42 am#872162
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: In the Hebrew Bible ‘son of God’ never meant a literal divine being as imagined by the NT writers.

    Gen 6:2… the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

    Deut 32:8… When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

    Job 1:6… One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

    Job 38… Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth… while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Shall I go on?  Will you claim that these sons of God are human beings?

    July 18, 2021 at 6:44 am#872163
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……your argument, is full of holes. Scripture does explain a species of angelic being  even Jesus said we shall be like the angels,  that obviously means , Angelic beings do exist and the do eat food,  call manna right?

    1..When Jesus went through the door and appeared to the disciples , they thought he was a Spirit , but Jesus said he wasn’t.  Because A spirit  didn’t have flesh and bones, as he did .

    2.  No one has produced a single scripture showing anyone being changed  into a spirit ,  from a human being either.

    3..  All scripture show the resurrection, as a new “spiritually”,   “regenerated” physical  body”  a body exactly as Jesus had and has now. The exact same  physical body he will return with,  to rule this earth. IMO.

    NO WHERE DOES ANY SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY  SAY ,  A physical body can not exist in the kingdom of God.  It says(it) can’t ‘inherit” it.  Why?  because a physical body is like a house or car, it has no mind itself,  to inherit anything,  but they (spirits) can contain bodies they live in,  and  control them , the Same thing applies to our bodies they are vessels that contain our spirits and our physical body carries about our spirits wherever (it)  “the Spirit”, wants to go.  As Jesus explained it.

    peace and love to you and yours Mike…………gene

     

     

    July 18, 2021 at 6:49 am#872164
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Remember @Stu, he did those things and it was necessary to restrict him to topics dedicated for Skeptics.

    I not only remember Stu, I liked him and miss him.  I wish I had the chance to have another go with him about the absurdity of billions of years and big bang and common descent evolution.  I know way more now about that nonsense than I did then.

    July 18, 2021 at 7:07 am#872165
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  No matter what the king said,  he was called that,  because he told the people what the king said  to tell them.   The kings word went to the servant,  and the servant told the people,  exact the same as any prophet of God did,  and that  includes  “Jesus”.

    And that servant of the king was called “The Word of the King” because he was the king’s PREEMINENT spokesman.  It is the same with Jesus.  He is called the Word of God because, although God has used many spokesmen, Jesus is God’s PREEMINENT spokesman.

    So we should expect to never hear you saying again that a word is never a person.  Especially since you know that the rider of the white horse (a PERSON) is named The Word of God, right?

    July 18, 2021 at 7:12 am#872166
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: YOU Gene, AS SOON AS YOU HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF A MUSTARD SEED YOU COULD PERFORM MIRACLES EVEN GREATER THAN JESUS DID!

    Sounds like you’re making Gene’s argument for him.  He said that Jesus didn’t do the miracles, but God did the miracles through Jesus.  And you rightly point out that, with enough faith, God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    The bottom line:  If Jesus was “Godman” as you assert, then he would have done his own miracles.  But as the scriptures attest, God did those miracles through Jesus – just as God did miracles through Moses, Elijah, and Samuel, etc.

    July 18, 2021 at 7:16 am#872167
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  And why is it hard to believe in the grandiose plan from a God that created the cosmos.

    Could you please show me this “cosmos” that God created in scripture?  All I can find is a heaven and an earth separated by a firmament, in which lights called the sun, moon and stars run appointed circuits over the earth.

    July 18, 2021 at 7:24 am#872168
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  …in these last days, hath spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through (by reason of) whom also made the worlds…

    Hi Jodi, would you agree that another way of saying “by reason of” would be “for”?  Do you understand the above verse as saying God made the worlds FOR his Son?

    July 18, 2021 at 7:36 am#872170
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi Proclaimer, you seem to judge others so fast without knowing their heart.

    Agreed.  He is quick to call others liars, or insinuate that they are less enlightened than him,  just because they interpret certain information differently than he does.  I have condemned this behavior many times on this forum.

    That being said, I don’t consider you a liar, or less enlightened than me – as if the Holy Spirit composes my posts here for me or something.  I take issue with your flawed REASONS for rejecting the NT as Hellenistic mish-mash.  I don’t particularly care whether or not you accept the NT.  I just don’t like it when you give “scriptural” reasons for doing so which are not found in any scripture.

    For example, you’re currently saying that the phrase “sons of God” never referred to spirit entities in the OT.  That’s nonsense, and I’ve listed a few verses for you as a rebuttal.  I’ll wait to see if you respond.

    July 18, 2021 at 7:44 am#872171
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  The book of Daniel is a non-prophetic book in the Hebrew Bible written in 2nd BCE by a pseudo writer.

    Proof please?

    July 18, 2021 at 7:56 am#872172
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Yes you got the point behind my negation of the NT as it had deviated from its original source and made the mess of every thing.

     

    Proclaimer:  Whereas, I see that the mess is in your own mind…

    I agree that the mess is in Adam’s mind, and of his own making.

    July 18, 2021 at 8:13 am#872174
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  NO WHERE DOES ANY SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY  SAY ,  A physical body can not exist in the kingdom of God.

    I never made any such claim.  I claim that flesh and blood (also known as “flesh and bone” – both of which are poetic ways of saying “human being”) cannot see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God.  If Jesus is a human being, then he’s ineligible.

    As for the new bodies of those who will receive eternal life…

    1 Cor 15…

    38But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

    40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.

    44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

    50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    51We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    Gene, to me this says that the flesh and blood body that humans have is a perishable natural body.  It says the heavenly body is imperishable – so not “flesh and blood”.  It says the dead will be raised with these new imperishable bodies, and those alive at Jesus’ second coming will be changed, having their perishable bodies transformed into imperishable ones.

    How do you read it?

    July 18, 2021 at 9:38 am#872180
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Agreed. He is quick to call others liars, or insinuate that they are less enlightened than him, just because they interpret certain information differently than he does. I have condemned this behavior many times on this forum.

    Show me the proof. A link to a post will be sufficient.

    July 18, 2021 at 11:02 am#872182
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    From a year and a half ago…

    HN Liar

    The next day on the same thread…

    HN Liar 2

    And ignore you I did… for over a year.  In fact, I’ve just recently began having some very cursory discourse with you again.

    And the above isn’t the only time I’ve called you out for calling other members here liars – as many of them can attest.

    And no, nobody is falling for your, “I don’t actually call anyone a liar” crap.  Let me expose how that argument goes for those who have yet to witness it first hand…

    Proclaimer:  Gene, you are lying.  You know you’re lying, and everyone here knows you’re lying.  You need to stop lying and maybe you’ll get the Holy Spirit like I have and you’ll become as enlightened as me on all things spiritual.  (Oh, by the way, you’ll notice that although I claimed you were lying 4 different times, I never actually said that you were a liar – so I remain a God-fearing Christian Peacemaker with untarnished record!)”

    Sound familiar to anyone?  🙄

    So… has enough time gone by now that you’ve come to realize the elementary fact that a LIE stems from INTENT to PURPOSELY deceive another person – and has no place in civil discussion between Christians who often have completely different interpretations of scripture?

    The word LIE should NEVER enter into any of your posts unless you have first hand knowledge that the person you’re accusing is 100% for sure trying to INTENTIONALLY promote information that THEY KNOW is false in order to deceive someone else.  That word is not for people understanding scriptures differently than you do.

    July 18, 2021 at 11:04 am#872183
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Excuse me, but the statement I make in your first quote is correct. It stands on its own. Do you think we cannot utter this? Is this statement incorrect? You first example is a fail. It doesn’t show me saying, Mike is a liar for example.

    July 18, 2021 at 11:07 am#872184
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your second example contains your own words which I have no control over. That is not proof or evidence that I have said you are a liar is it?

    If you cannot provide even one example Mike, then you are falsely accusing me.

    Please provide an example or admit you are wrong.

    Thanks.

    July 18, 2021 at 11:52 am#872185
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Do you really want to do this again?  Okay.  It started with you posting an illustration of a disk earth with 3 people looking off in different directions.  And you asked if the earth was flat, how could all 3 of those people see the same sky.  And I rightly responded that all 3 people WOULDN’T see the same sky – since they are on different parts of the plane.  My statement was ACCURATE – which then prompted you to realize your error and rephrase to say that you didn’t mean they could all see the same sky AT THE SAME TIME.  Well then, what’s the problem?  On a ball earth spinning under the sky, they’d all see the same sky at different times.  On a flat earth with lights in the sky running appointed circuits over them (as the Bible clearly and unapologetically says many times in many different ways), they would all see the same sky at different times.  So it’s wasn’t even a good point to begin with, because the same results would occur whether we lived on a spinning ball or a stationary plane.  But just like with our recent discussion on the elementary fact that for God/heaven to be ABOVE everyone on earth (as in: OVER THEIR HEADS, LOOKING UP INTO THE SKY) the earth has to be flat, you must have been confused by your mistake on the 3 men too.  Only that time, you chose to lash out at me with accusations of lying.

    And here’s how that went…

    July 18, 2021 at 12:04 pm#872186
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    HN Liar 3

    Notice my correct response in the blue square.  Notice your immediate attack against my character in the red square. What part of what I said was wrong – or a lie?  Now you will later say that you didn’t *literally* come out and call me a liar – but anyone who reads your comment in the red box above will agree that you were indeed calling me a liar, and even going as far as insinuating that I was using compound lies – one to cover over another – and that you had somehow caught me.

    Later in the post… AFTER you accused me of lying… your confusion was made evident when you let on that you apparently think that every star in existence can be seen by anybody looking at the night sky – as if there aren’t a billion more stars that are UNDER your ball earth at the same time. 🙄  But we never made it that far in the discussion, because I called you out for calling me a liar.  And this is how that went…

    July 18, 2021 at 12:07 pm#872188
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    HN Liar 4

    Do you see how I tried to be the peacemaker that you claimed to be?  Do you see how I tried to explain to you the difference between an INTENTIONAL act to WILLFULLY deceive someone else on purpose, and somebody making a simple mistake?  Yet I was met with every post from you including the word “lie” – in some condescending further attack on my character. So then what happened?

    July 18, 2021 at 12:15 pm#872190
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    HN Liar 5

    See?  After your brother in Christ demands that you don’t call him a liar, you went post after post after post talking about how it is your duty to call out lies – again making it abundantly clear that I was the “liar” you were calling out.

    And in the middle of your condescension against me, you even admitted that I had corrected you… which I did, because you didn’t say anything about the 3 men seeing the same sky AT DIFFERENT TIMES at first.  You just asked how the 3 men could all see the same sky.  And I said they couldn’t, right?  And for that I was subjected to a barrage of personal insults against my character?

    You’ll need to preach to a different choir.  Nobody here is going to take your side on this one.  You can hem and haw around it and say, “Well, I never TECHNICALLY said, ‘Mike, you are a liar'”, if that makes you feel better.  But now everyone else in this thread can see how you did me – simply for pointing out an error in YOUR argument.

    So I say again… there is no need for the word “LIE” to ever leave your mouth in reference to anyone on this site – as if you know their heart or intent. And there is no need for you to talk down to anyone here – as if you have more “Holy Spirit” than them or enlightenment or whatever.  You do fine making solid scriptural based arguments here.  Just stick to that, and leave the personal attacks out of it.

    July 18, 2021 at 3:53 pm#872195
    gadam123
    Participant

    So I say again… there is no need for the word “LIE” to ever leave your mouth in reference to anyone on this site – as if you know their heart or intent. And there is no need for you to talk down to anyone here – as if you have more “Holy Spirit” than them or enlightenment or whatever.  You do fine making solid scriptural based arguments here.  Just stick to that, and leave the personal attacks out of it.

    I think that is a gentle man agreement.

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