Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’. (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

This topic has 25,928 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 19 hours, 40 minutes ago by DesireTruth.

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Posts
June 4, 2021 at 9:59 am#871233
Lightenup
Participant
Hi gadam123,
You said:
While God the Father is the One called “Lord of lords” in Deuteronomy 10:17 and in Psalms, the New Testament writers use the same title to refer to Jesus Christ. This is the change I am questioning.
Deuteronomy 10:17 doesn’t use “Father” in that verse anywhere. That is your assumption.
June 4, 2021 at 2:19 pm#871234
gadam123
Participant
Hi Sis Kathi,
You said:
While God the Father is the One called “Lord of lords” in Deuteronomy 10:17 and in Psalms, the New Testament writers use the same title to refer to Jesus Christ. This is the change I am questioning.
Deuteronomy 10:17 doesn’t use “Father” in that verse anywhere. That is your assumption.
I am sorry I have quoted the above post as a Christian believer and not as a critic. But I have mentioned that Yahweh is the one and only God in these verses in my post above. I find our NT had deviated much on the definition of God from its original source, the Hebrew Bible.
Hope you have gone through my other posts on the God of the Hebrew Bible.
June 4, 2021 at 2:23 pm#871235
gadam123
Participant
Hi Danny,
Gadam,
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:
Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The greatest is, ‘Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one:
Yes that was the apt statement by Jesus. But why other NT writings deviated from this conviction of Jesus?
June 4, 2021 at 2:31 pm#871236
Lightenup
Participant
Hi gadam123,
You seem to assume that YHVH is one person only, as opposed to two or three persons who are members of a fullness of God called YHVH.
For example,
Deut 10:17 tells us that YHVH is God of gods and Lord of lords. You seem to believe that only one person is both God of gods as well as Lord of lords. Why do you disagree with Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 who says that we have one God and one Lord and they are two persons?
June 4, 2021 at 3:16 pm#871237
gadam123
Participant
Hi Sis Kathi,
You seem to assume that YHVH is one person only, as opposed to two or three persons who are members of a fullness of God called YHVH.
For example,
Deut 10:17 tells us that YHVH is God of gods and Lord of lords. You seem to believe that only one person is both God of gods as well as Lord of lords. Why do you disagree with Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 who says that we have one God and one Lord and they are two persons?
I think this is not the right thread for such debates. If you want I can shift this conversation to the appropriate thread “The most high God” started by you.
June 4, 2021 at 3:21 pm#871238
Lightenup
Participant
Hi gadam123,
You can put the discussion there. However, the unity of the Godhead is important in John 1:1 as well as we see two who are both called “God.” You decide 🙂
June 4, 2021 at 8:51 pm#871243
gadam123
Participant
Hi gadam123,
You can put the discussion there. However, the unity of the Godhead is important in John 1:1 as well as we see two who are both called “God.” You decide
I have already posted my reply on “The Most High God”. You can reply there as we are going to have much discussion on the ‘High God’ as initiated by you.
June 5, 2021 at 4:49 am#871261
Danny Dabbs
Participant
Hi Adam,
You: However, if we look a little closer, we can see that the passage is clearly referring to two different gods: “Most High” and “the LORD”.
Me: That’s what the lying freemasons are saying. There are no two different gods.
2 Samuel 22:14 Yahweh thundered from heaven. The Most High uttered his voice.
Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;
June 5, 2021 at 7:19 am#871264
Berean
Participant
Hi To all ans God bless
June 5, 2021 at 7:26 am#871265
Berean
Participant
One another,

https://youtu.be/zBngAHsAMIY
June 5, 2021 at 8:13 am#871266
Berean
Participant
One last

June 5, 2021 at 8:35 am#871267
Berean
Participant
“But here is the alliance that I will make with the house
of Israel, after those days – declaration of the LORD: I
will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts;
I will be their God, and they will be my people. (Jeremiah
31.33, NBS.)
When the law of God is written in the heart, it is
manifested by a pure and holy life. The
divine commandments are not a dead letter, but
mind and life, subduing the imagination and even
thoughts to the will of Christ. The heart in which they
are written will be carefully guarded, for from it springs the
life.
All who love Jesus and keep his
commandments seek to avoid even the
appearances of evil, not out of obligation, but out of concern
to imitate a spotless model; out of aversion to everything
which is against the law written in the heart. Aware
of their insufficiency, they will trust in God, for he alone
can keep them from sin and uncleanness. The atmosphere
that surrounds them is pure, and they do not want to corrupt nor
their soul or that of others. They like to practice
justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly
with God.
The lack of genuine piety and holiness
interior is the danger that threatens those who live in
the last days. The working power of God has not
transformed their character. Like the Jewish nation, they
profess to believe in holy truths, but their
failure to put this truth into practice testifies
of their ignorance of the Scriptures and of the
God. The power and influence of divine law is exercised
well around them, but not inside the soul for
renew it with true holiness.
It is God’s intention that he who teaches
Bible should, by its character and home life,
represent the principles of truth he teaches
men. A man’s character has more influence than
his words. A peaceful, consistent and godly life is
a living letter, known and read by all men. It is
may someone speak and write like an angel of
God, while behaving like a fallen angel….
A true character is not something you
manufactures the exterior. True goodness, purity,
gentleness, humility and fairness dwell in the
heart? It will be reflected in the character, and it will be
filled with power. “
http://www.egw.advent-verlag.ch/f
June 5, 2021 at 3:05 pm#871269
Proclaimer
Participant
You seem to believe that only one person is both God of gods as well as Lord of lords. Why do you disagree with Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 who says that we have one God and one Lord and they are two persons?
But LU, you believe two are God and two are Lord. You also err.
June 5, 2021 at 3:22 pm#871271
gadam123
Participant
Hi Proclaimer,
You seem to believe that only one person is both God of gods as well as Lord of lords. Why do you disagree with Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 who says that we have one God and one Lord and they are two persons?
But LU, you believe two are God and two are Lord. You also err.
Thanks for replying LU on my post. Yes she is believing that there are two persons who are called ‘God of gods’ and two persons who are called ‘Lord of lords’. The reason for this she quotes Paul’s 1 Cor 8:6 where Paul quoted Father was called one God and Jesus was called one Lord.
Deut 10:17 is about Yahweh the one and only God (Elohim) who is called both God of gods and Lord of lords. Hebrew Bible is not talking about two persons in this verse.
June 5, 2021 at 3:39 pm#871272
Lightenup
Participant
Proclaimer and Adam,
The Father + The Son + The Spirit = One God, One Lord, and One Spirit. All are identified as YHVH.
The Father alone is not One God, One Lord, and One Spirit.
June 5, 2021 at 3:41 pm#871273
Lightenup
Participant
Adam,
You said:
Yes she is believing that there are two persons who are called ‘God of gods’ and two persons who are called ‘Lord of lords’.
That does not represent what I believe. See post above this.
June 5, 2021 at 3:44 pm#871274
Proclaimer
Participant
Proclaimer and Adam,
The Father + The Son + The Spirit = One God, One Lord, and One Spirit. All are identified as YHVH.
The Father alone is not One God, One Lord, and One Spirit.
I see. You have evolved from the Binity to the Trinity. This matches the history of the Trinity. It started as a Binity. The Spirit was added as the third member some time later. Interesting how this transistion occurs.
June 5, 2021 at 3:47 pm#871275
Proclaimer
Participant
So for us believers there is one God the Father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
But for LU, there is one God the Father Son and Spirit. And one Lord, the Father, Jesus, and Spirit.
Did I crack the formula this time?
June 5, 2021 at 3:48 pm#871276
Lightenup
Participant
Berean,
I love your songs, so worshipful! Are you musical as well?
Keep them coming, LU
June 5, 2021 at 3:56 pm#871277
Lightenup
Participant
Proclaimer,
You asked: Did I crack the formula this time?
No.
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