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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • October 16, 2020 at 9:49 am#866829
    Berean
    Participant

    Is this you too Berean?

     

    No  I am Berean

    When I Say THAT Jésus IS God , I mean He IS OF the SAME nature of the Father

    And the Word was God

    Not THE God

    God in infinity but not in PERSONALITY

    God the Father IS THE ONLY TRUE  GOD

    BLESS BE HIS NAME
    AMEN

     

     

    October 16, 2020 at 9:56 am#866830
    nayasnana
    Participant

    The first thing I want to note is, (2 Peter 1:20) “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.”
    A triple deity (sometimes referred to as threefold, tripled, triplicate, tripartite, triune or triadic, or as a trinity) is three deities that are worshipped as one. Such deities are common throughout world mythology; the number three has a long history of mythical associations.

    The Doctrine of the Trinity did not exist until 325 A.D. The Old Testament is the original Hebrew Bible, the sacred scriptures of the Jewish faith, written at different times between about 1200 and 165 BC. The New Testament books were written by Christians in the first century AD.
    “It is an unquestionable historical fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine foisted into
    the Church during the third and fourth centuries; which finally triumphed by the aid of persecuting emperors.
    For many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God.
    To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. . . .
    Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. Jesus’ establishment as ‘the Son of God’ was officially proposed
    and voted on by the Council of Nicaea. . . . [It was] a relatively close vote at that. . . . By officially endorsing Jesus as God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity who existed beyond the scope of the human world, an entity whose power was unchallengeable.
    After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades.
    Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. This council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many” (Matthew 24:4-5) By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ’s “little flock” (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching “another Jesus” and a “different gospel” (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9). This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ’s ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. But why do so many follow after the belief of the Trinity? The answer is simple. They do not check it for themselves with what the Bible teaches. Consider Jesus Christ’s words:
    Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
    So it is to the Bible we must turn, and when we do, we do not find any evidence to suggest that God is made up of three beings. Be Blessed

     

    October 16, 2020 at 10:00 am#866831
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    When I Say THAT Jésus IS God , I mean He IS OF the SAME nature of the Father

    Yes this is what I thought and I am with you regarding that.

    It’s tough because when we use a capital letter it is the same as a word in Greek that is preceded by the definite article. So when we say ‘God’ it basically means ”the God’. But John 1:1-3 doesn’t have the definite article before the last mention of ‘theos’. And it seems wrong to also say ‘god’ which is how false gods is written. Yes ‘divine’ is what many believe it is saying. Even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge that too.

    October 16, 2020 at 10:06 am#866832
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @nayasnanayahoo-com

    Thanks for the history lesson. Yes the emergence and establishment of the Trinity Doctrine is fickle indeed. It is wrought with the works of men as history attests.

    I do not think that there are die-hard Trinitarians debating here right now though, but your post serves as a good reminder for those that are reading this discussion.

    October 16, 2020 at 11:06 am#866833
    nayasnana
    Participant

    He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must, therefore, refer to the time when God began creating. God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus. (Joh 1:14-17) So Jesus is the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col 1:15) He was “the beginning of the creation by God” (Re 3:14), so he existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created. In fact, by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.”​—(Col 1:16); The very contrast with the prophets (who in the lower sense were amongst God’s sons) would be sufficient to prove this, but the words which follow, and the whole contents of this chapter, are designed to show the supreme dignity of Him who is God’s latest Representative on earth. The prophet’s commission extended no farther than the special message of his words and life; “a Son” spoke with His Father’s authority, with complete knowledge of His will and purpose. It is impossible to read these first lines (in which the whole argument of the Epistle is enfolded) without recalling the prologue of the fourth Gospel. The name “Word” is not mentioned here, and the highest level of John’s teaching is not reached; but the idea which “the Word” expresses, and the thought of the Only Begotten as declaring and interpreting the Father (John 1:18; also John 14:10; John 14:24) are present throughout.

    In ( Colossians 1:15) no man hath seen God corporeally with the eyes of his body, though intellectually with the eyes of the understanding, when enlightened. Not in his essence and nature, which is infinite and incomprehensible, but in Jesus’ works of creation, providence, and grace; in and through Christ, in whom He gives the light of the knowledge of the glory of His person and perfections; But the Father is said to be invisible, because He did not appear to Old Testament saints and His voice was never heard, so His shape was never seen; He never assumed any visible form; but whenever any voice was heard, or shape seen, it was the Son of God that appeared, who is here said to be his “image”, and that, as he is the Son of God; in which sense he is the natural, essential, and eternal image of his Father, the eternal one. He (Jesus) is perfect and complete. It includes sameness of nature and perfections but separate “entities.”

    In (Revelation 3:14) Laodicea was the last and worst of the seven churches of Asia. Here our Lord Jesus styles himself, The Amen;(so be it) one steady and unchangeable in all his purposes and promises. Christ expects men should be in earnest. How many professors of gospel doctrine are neither hot nor cold; except they are indifferent in needful matters, and hot and fiery in disputes about things of lesser importance. A severe punishment is threatened. They would give a false opinion of Christianity, as if it were an unholy religion while others would conclude it could give no real satisfaction, otherwise its professors would not have been heartless in it, or so ready to seek pleasure or happiness from the world. One cause of this indifference and inconsistency in religion is, self-conceit and self-delusion. What a difference between what they thought of themselves and what Christ thought of them. How careful should we be not to cheat our owns souls! The faithful and true witness, Jesus Christ.  He is a witness for God and His truth, and Jesus can approve of nothing which the God of truth would not approve. He is arrayed in a vesture dipped in his own blood, by which he purchased his power as Mediator; and in the blood of his enemies, over whom he always prevails. His name is The Word of God; a name none fully knows but himself; only this we know, that this Word was God “manifest” (not incarnated) in the flesh; but his perfections cannot be fully understood by any creature. Although an incarnation is a type of manifestation, there is, however, a significant difference that exists between the two that must be understood. Many things can be considered the manifestation of something or someone. We are the manifestation of Christ, who was the manifestation of God. We who follow Christ are likewise the manifestation of God yet we are not the complete “physical substance” of God literally but rather God is made known  (manifest) through us.

    BTW ( I love a challenge)

     

     

     

    October 16, 2020 at 11:11 am#866834
    nayasnana
    Participant

    Gotcha. I understood you to be saying that Jesus was God. And you’re correct, He is of the same nature and essence but, Jesus is the Son of God. Two different persons. Be blessed

    October 16, 2020 at 11:14 am#866835
    nayasnana
    Participant

    I am always amazed at those who believe at all cost that a trinity is scriptural. Even when you show proof that Jesus and God were claimed to be one decades before the Holy Spirit was added to the trinity.

    October 16, 2020 at 8:09 pm#866838
    Ed J
    Participant

    The logos in John 1:1 cannot be Jesus.

    Hi Nayasnana,

    Quite refreshment to have someone else come along,
    to help explain this simple truth to others here!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    October 16, 2020 at 8:15 pm#866839
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Nayasana,

    WELLCOME!

    Read Isaiah 48:15 I, even I have spoken and called him: (: MY WORD”)I have brought him,(BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD) and his way is made

    PROSPEROUS (A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS ASA SPIRIT: “THE WORD”)

    16Come ye near unto me,

    and hear this:

    I have not spoken in secret from

    the beginning:

    from the time before it was done, (THE BEGINNING)

    I was there,(JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE)

    and now the Lord God

    hath sent me, (“THE WORD”IN JESUS’ FLESH) 

    and his spirit. (THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL)

    BOTH GLORIFIED INTO ONE SUBSTANCE IN

    JESUS CHRIST:

    JOHN13;31,32

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    October 16, 2020 at 8:48 pm#866840
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must, therefore, refer to the time when God began creating. God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus. (Joh 1:14-17) So Jesus is the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col 1:15) He was “the beginning of the creation by God” (Re 3:14), so he existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created. In fact, by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.”​—(Col 1:16); The very contrast with the prophets (who in the lower sense were amongst God’s sons) would be sufficient to prove this, but the words which follow, and the whole contents of this chapter, are designed to show the supreme dignity of Him who is God’s latest Representative on earth. The prophet’s commission extended no farther than the special message of his words and life; “a Son” spoke with His Father’s authority, with complete knowledge of His will and purpose. It is impossible to read these first lines (in which the whole argument of the Epistle is enfolded) without recalling the prologue of the fourth Gospel. The name “Word” is not mentioned here, and the highest level of John’s teaching is not reached; but the idea which “the Word” expresses, and the thought of the Only Begotten as declaring and interpreting the Father (John 1:18; also John 14:10; John 14:24) are present throughout.

    Great post. But I’m not aligned with Jesus Christ not being the Word of God part. Yes obviously the logos is an attribute of God just as truth and love is. But Jesus Christ said he was the Truth and the Life. He is a person that personifies these Godly attributes. Same can be said about the logos.

    We know that Jesus is his name and so he is Jesus. He is also named, “The Word of God”, so why is he Jesus but not the Word of God?

    There are currently two members here who will not answer this most simplest of questions. They are not honest people IMO because they dodge questions regarding their teachings. They seem only interested in being right and do not seem to put truth above themselves. Hopefully you can give me an answer here.

    Why is he NOT the Word of God if that is his name, but is Jesus because that is also his name?

    Here is how Tatian (165 A.D) put it centuries before Nicea.

    And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world…

    For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

    Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)

    And He is without beginning, since He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal. And he is called God… He is Lord, because He rules over the universe, Father, because He is before all things, …

    God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. 

     

     

     

    October 17, 2020 at 3:42 am#866842
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..the “only” way Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he were God, himself. JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word,  scripture does not say that, It says he is “called” the word of God, it does not say he “IS” the word of God.

    look up the meaning of the word “called” ,  it shows it as a “sur-name” ,  not to mention Jesus himself said this, 

    John 12:48…..He that rejects me and recieve not my words has one that judges him: the words that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49,  For I have not spoken of (from) “MYSELF”; but the Father which sent me, “He” gave me commandment, what I should     “say”, and what I should “speak”. 

     

    Does that sound like Jesus was saying he “himself” was God’s word? , not to me , that sounds like The man Jesus was telling us exactly what God the Father was telling him to say to us.  The sur-name “the word” is because he was telling us God the Fathers word exactly as the Father was telling him to tell us.  It was God the Fathers words , not “his own” words. 

    Jesus bore testified to us God the Fathers words, which are the words of life, he is as one who testifies to us the words of God, not that he himself is the word of God.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    October 17, 2020 at 3:55 am#866843
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…… Here is your answer to your question you ask me.

    Isa 44:6-7…… Thus says the LORD the King of Israel,  and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first and the last; and besides me there is “NO”  God.

    VERSE 7……Fear you not, neither be afraid; have not I told you from that time and have declared it?, you are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is “NO” God; I know “NOT” ANY. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    October 17, 2020 at 4:13 am#866844
    nayasnana
    Participant

    Some of my “research” was done a few years back so, wording of my post today may be a little “iffy.” I make every attempt to quote exactly from the Bible when giving my thoughts/opinions. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit before posting anything. I do not in any way want to “force” anyone to believe what I post. I share what I have found and what I believe it means to give others the courage and incentive to really dig into God’s word and find truths. Be Blessed

    October 17, 2020 at 4:31 am#866845
    nayasnana
    Participant

    After God asks, “Who among them [your idols] has declared these things?” He then states, “The Lord loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans…. I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.” But who is “him”? The first part of this as “The Lord’s chosen ally [because allies are elsewhere referred to as “lovers” in Scripture] will carry out his purpose against Babylon.” So, it is likely a reference, once again, to Cyrus on one level. But, as already explained, Cyrus was a forerunner of the ultimate Messiah, Jesus Christ, who will overthrow end-time Babylon at His second coming. And this is the primary reference here. In verse 16, the pronoun changes from Him to “Me”—showing Jesus directly speaking as having been sent by the Father through the Holy Spirit.

    As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once.” ( John 13:31-32) John has hinted throughout his gospel that Jesus would redefine glory. The word for exalt or glorify actually means to lift up on high. For Jesus, his glory will involve his being lifted up on high on the cross out of love for us and in obedience to the Father. Through his death, burial and resurrection, Jesus will bring the Father glory by fulfilling the Father’s plan to bring us out of our bondage to sin and death.

     

    October 17, 2020 at 4:53 am#866846
    nayasnana
    Participant

    In reference to (Tatian 165 A.D) Most Protestants will claim that the historic Christian faith can be determined from the Bible, but a simple comparison of the multitude of doctrines taught by Protestants makes it clear this is not true. The result of this is that early church history is left far too often to the revisionist history of the Roman Catholics. The word is in desperate need of a testimony like that of the apostles and their churches.

    Fortunately, many writings have been left to us from all periods of church, even the earliest and it’s not difficult to determine what was important to the churches the apostles started. We see doctrines introduced at later periods into the teaching of the churches and we can see that those doctrines are not apostolic.

    After the reign of Constantine and the first general council of the church at Nicea, two very significant events occurred.

    One, the churches now had an official means to decree doctrine. Doctrines that were universal in the church before that time were very likely to have come from a common source, the apostles, because there was no hierarchy to establish new doctrines universally.

    Two, most of the citizens of the Roman empire became Christians, making it almost impossible after Nicea to find anything resembling the churches before Nicea. No longer were the churches gatherings of those who had chosen the Christian faith against what was accepted in society. Now, the churches consisted mostly of those who were just doing what everyone else was doing. (This is evidenced by the awful behavior of the churches and their leaders after Nicea)

    Jesus said that prophets were to be judged by their fruit. In early church history it is possible not just to see the apostolic or non-apostolic origin of doctrines, it’s also possible to see the fruit of new doctrines as they arrived on the scene.

    The starting-point of Tatian’s theology is a strict monotheism, which becomes the source of the moral life. Originally the human soul possessed faith in one God, but lost it with the fall. In consequence, humanity sank under the rule of demons into the abominable error of polytheism. By monotheistic faith, the soul is delivered from the material world and from demonic rule and is united with God. God is spirit (pneuma), but not the physical or stoical pneuma; he was alone before the creation, but he had within himself the whole creation.

    The means of creation was the dynamis logike (“power expressed in words”). At first there proceeded from God the Logos who, generated in the beginning, was to produce the world by creating matter from which the whole of creation sprang. ( I’m going to attempt more reseach on this since this “theology” of Tatian is conveying that Jesus was “created” in the heavens.) I’ve also began some research on the belief that Jesus was/is the Archangel Michael. It will take me a minute but, I’ll get back with you as soon as find something worth sharing. Pray for the Holy Spirit to lead me in this research. Be blessed

     

     

    October 17, 2020 at 4:54 am#866847
    Ed J
    Participant

    It says he is “called” the word of God

    Where does it say that Gene?
    Because I never seen it ???

    October 17, 2020 at 6:30 am#866849
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel…… Here is your answer to your question you ask me.

    Isa 44:6-7…… Thus says the LORD the King of Israel,  and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first and the last; and besides me there is “NO”  God.

    VERSE 7……Fear you not, neither be afraid; have not I told you from that time and have declared it?, you are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is “NO” God; I know “NOT” ANY. 

    Hi Gene,

    READ AGAIN MY QUESTION IN PLAIN SIMPLE ENGLISH:

     

    GENE SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF SAYS:

     

    I AM THE ONLY

    TRUE

    GOD!

    DID YOU UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE Gene?

    HERE IT IS AGAIN:

     

    GENE SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF SAYS:

     

    I AM THE ONLY

    TRUE

    GOD!

    Gene

    TRUE GOD 

    NOT JUST THE ONLY GOD!

    SATAN ALSO CONSIDERED HIMSELF GOD ON EARTH.

    THE FATHER WAS NOT ACCEPTED AS 

    THE ONLY GOD ON EARTH!

    NEVER MIND

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH.

    THE FACT THAT GOD SHOUTED SO IN ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES.

    BEFORE JESUS PROCLAIMED SO!

     

    NOW ANSWER THIS ONE GENE,

    WHY THE FATHER ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE ONLY SAID THAT

    HE IS THE ONLY GOD

    AND

    HE NEVER SAID

    HIMSELF

    THAT

    HE IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    October 17, 2020 at 7:04 am#866850
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..the “only” way Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he were God, himself. JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word, scripture does not say that, It says he is “called” the word of God, it does not say he “IS” the word of God.

    A lot in your post is not true. His name is The Word of God as has already been pointed out to you multiple times. There seems to be something blinding you from this.

    And he is not called ‘the God’, but is referenced in nature only. He is after all called the only begotten of the Father and first born of all creation. From what else then was he derived?

    If he wasn’t the first to be with God then who was this very special person?

    Where are your answers?

    October 17, 2020 at 8:07 am#866851
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    EDJ…..REV 19:13,  …..and he was clothed  with a vesture, dipped in blood: and his name is ““CALLED” , “The word of God”.  

    Now look up the words given there for “called”  it will tell you it is a “sur-name” ,  or Title,  like when Jesus said to Simon Bar-jona,  you shall be “called” Peter , that word means a Stone or Rock,  was Peter a stone or rock, no he was not , but that name was an “atribute” afforded him, because of some atribute he posessed, the same thing applied to James and John, he called them the “Son’s of Thunder”,  did that make them really sons of THUNDER, what ever that would be?, NO IT WOULD NOT. 

    JESUS is afforded the “TITLE” ,  the word of God,  because he told us God the Fathers words, “exactly”,  as the Father commanded him to. The same thing applies to the Prophets God sent before, Jesus was ever born,  just as  Heb 1:1 says,

    God, who at Sunday times and in different manners spake in times past unto the fathers by (through)  the prophets, has in theses last days spoken unto us by (through) a Son, who he appointed heir of all things,  by (for the purpose of) whom also he (God) made the worlds;  

    Now ask yourself who was the one speaking, was it the prophets, or the Son?, NO it was God the Father who was speaking,  not Jesus or the prophets, get the glory of the Fathers words?, “only God the Father does”. No matter who he (God) speaks through, it’s still him (God), who is the one speaking those words through them. GET IT? 

    God is Spirit and can speak directly through a persons mouth, by his Spirit being in that  person,  it was not Jesus who said destory this temple and in three days I, (God the Father),   shall raise it up. , that was God the FATHER SPEAKING DIRECTLY THROUGH THE HUMAN JESUS’ MOUTH. 

    God and his words are one and the same being, no matter who he choses to speak through, it’s still God himself speaking, his own words. Not the words of the messenger, who he has sent.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

     

    October 17, 2020 at 8:46 am#866852
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel. ……if God himself said there is “no other God” but him, then common sense should tell you he is saying he is also the “only” true” God,  if  you don’t believe God himself, then believe Jesus,  when he said  , “that they might know “YOU” THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD. 

    I have given you both God the Father,  and Jesus own words, you either believe them or not it’s up to you.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene

     

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