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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • October 10, 2020 at 7:56 am#866715
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Jodi

    You

    You think that Jesus was once in heaven in the form of God, where he is himself, you say that he is God too, but that he came down from heaven not to do his own will? How does that make sense?

    Me

    Very good question Jodi

    My answer is that only the divine Son of God could offer Himself for the salvation of the world; only He, who is in the bosom of the Father in Heaven and is ONE WITH THE FATHER, could offer Himself for the salvation of the world.
    to make the Father known, to pay our debt to the Father. and reconcile ourselves to Him and reunite all things in Him.

    For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me (John 6:38).

    No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, is he who made him known (John 1:18).

     

    In him we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace,

    1:8 Which God hath poured out upon us abundantly by every kind of wisdom and understanding,

    1:9 Making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to the good pleasure which he had formed in himself,

    1:10 That, when the times shall be fulfilled, they may gather together all things in Christ, both in heaven and on earth (Ephesians 1).

    God bless

    October 10, 2020 at 8:11 am#866716
    Jodi
    Participant

    oops I realized I said JESSE and not JESUS,

    “IF JESUS AND “THEY” ARE NOT OF THE WORLD BUT WERE SENT INTO THE WORLD, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM???? HEAVEN, FROM GOD OF COURSE.

    October 10, 2020 at 8:26 am#866717
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So Jesus didn’t come down from Heaven? And he is called Jesus so he is Jesus and he is called The Word of God, but he is not The Word of God.

    Makes perfect sense.

    October 10, 2020 at 8:35 am#866718
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    IF JESUS AND “THEY” ARE NOT OF THE WORLD BUT WERE SENT INTO THE WORLD, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM???? HEAVEN, FROM GOD OF COURSE.

    Me

    HEAVEN AND from.

    God IS NOT THE SAME THING.

    HEAVEN is the dwelling place of God and Christ and the angels.

    From God : it is our union with God through Jesus Christ by the Spirit.

    Thé Apostles were from God but not from Heaven.

    They don’t came DOWN from Heaven,

    Jésus HIMSELF came DOWN from Heaven.

     

     

     

    October 10, 2020 at 8:35 am#866719
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    Be honest

    The Word became flesh and Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Must be a coincidence Jodi.

    October 10, 2020 at 9:25 am#866720
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    The devil does not want the world to know the real identity of Jesus.

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus

    ( Revelation 12:17)

    God bless

     

    October 10, 2020 at 11:09 am#866721
    Ed J
    Participant

    When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
     
    What you are saying Edj, is the Spirit will ride a horse and then will dwell in all things. Never heard that one before.

    Hi T8,

    The HolySpirit puts ever thing under the subjection of Christ,
    Christ then baptizes them with God’s HolySpirit; so that God may be all in all.

    I hope you understand now as it’s not complicated at all.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    October 10, 2020 at 11:45 am#866722
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..I am not saying or “implying”, that Jesus is the source of GOD’S WORDS,

    ME: I never said that YOU SAID: that Jesus is the source of GOD’S WORDS

    Gene, you are so of the habit to lie that you never realize that what you say are pure lies.

    I SAID: JESUS IS

    THE ONLY PHYSICAL SOURCE OF THE FATHER’S

    GENUINE WORDS AND WORKS.

    THE FATHER IS NOT PHYSICAL BUT SPIRIT, THUS HE SENT HIS SON TO BE HIMSELF

    PHYSICALLY IN HIM AND BY HIM.  

    NOW, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    ACCORDING TO YOU

    SINCE JESUS’ WORD’S ARE NOT HIS, BUT THE FATHER’S ORIGIN,

    JESUS IS NOT “THE WORD” OF GOD;

    WHICH IS A PURE LIE, SIMPLY here it comes: AS IT IS

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS

    The only PHYSICAL SOURCE ( not the SOURCE as you said)

    OF THE FATHER’S

    GENUINE WORDS AND WORKS THAT MAKE

    JESUS PRECISELY

    “THE WORD”  OF GOD ITSELF.

    Now

    What I am saying is this,  God spoke in times past “through” the prophets,has in these ladder days spoke to us “through”

    a Son, (LIES AGAIN)Jesus the Christ.

    NOT A SON, BUT HIS SON,

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,

    THE ONLY ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN INTO THE WORLD.THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN Gene, 

    Again NOT AS Jodi’s INVENTION CAME OUT INTO THE WORLD.

    NO human OF earth

    CAME INTO THE WORD,

    they are ALL PRODUCTS OF THE SATANIC WORLD FROM ADAM SIN.

    YOU: GOD WAS “IN” JESUS,

    ME: PERFECT; NO HUMAN WAS and NEVER WILL BE IN THE POSITION TO CARRY GOD WITHIN Gene, 

    YOU: VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    ME: NOT AS YOU UNDERSTAND.

    YOU: AND WAS SPEAKING TO US “THROUGH” THE “MAN” JESUS,

    ME: NO  IN THE MAN JESUS, 

    Matthew 3:17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying:

    This is my beloved Son,

    in whom I am well pleased.

     

    YOU: just as God the Father spoke “through” the PROPHETS before him?  NO “DIFFERENCE”.

    NO Gene, not as you IMPLYING I’M AFRAID

    JESUS IS THE ONLY HUMAN WHO WALKED ON EARTH AS

    THE FULL DEITY

    CARNALLY IN JESUS. 

    WITHIN JESUS EMBODIMENT

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, The SON of man,

    not made true in the flesh, Jodi’s INVENTIONS and ILLUSIONS

    John 14:7If you had known me,

    you would, without doubt,

    have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him, and

    you have seen him.

    YOU: God and his word are one and the same thing,

    John10: 30 I(“THE WORD” OF GOD) and the Father are one.

    YOU:God was not the prophets he spoke through,

    ME; I AGREE!

    YOU: nor was Jesus the God that spoke through him either.

    ME: I DON’T AGREE:

    Luke 10:22 ALL THINGS ( EVEN THE TITLE OF GOD AND FATHER) are delivered to me by my Father;

    and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; (NOT EVEN YOU Gene) and

    who the Father is, but the Son,(NOT EVEN YOU Gene)

    and to whom the Son will reveal him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    October 10, 2020 at 1:52 pm#866723
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    You think Jesus was in heaven before in the form of God, where he himself you say is God also, but yet he came down from heaven not to do his own will?? How does that make any sense?

    YOU: My answer is that only the divine Son of God could offer Himself for the salvation of the world; only He, who is in the bosom of the Father in Heaven and is ONE WITH THE FATHER, could offer Himself for the salvation of the world.
    to make the Father known, to pay our debt to the Father. and reconcile ourselves to Him and reunite all things in Him.

    ME: 

    The divine Son of God, is he who was begotten of the Spirit not by measure, an anointing, a calling to righteousness where God had promised to the son of Jesse that He would direct all his ways as He sent this anointed man out into the world TO be our savior. 

    Berean, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE the “BECAUSE” in Jesus’ words in Luke 4, the Spirit came upon Jesus BECAUSE he had anointed him TO be our savior. Only this anointed man was sanctified, set apart, to be our savior.

    Berean, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE the “PROMISE” and to WHO the promise was made to, in Acts, “Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Berean, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE you are directly told there was no savior that HAD COME until AFTER the baptism John preached, “When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.”

    Saying that a divine Son from heaven had to come down to be a man in order to save the world is TOTALLY FALSE. You misinterpret scripture because you do not apply other scriptures, and then from those misinterpretations you have invented a false doctrine, a doctrine that goes against the direct given word.

    Why was Jesus anointed with the Spirit and sent out into the world to be our savior? Because such was according to God’s predetermined purpose and foreknowledge, where we are even told that God declared from the beginning that a man would come and fulfill God’s will bringing forth God’s promised righteousness and salvation. 

    God’s plan from the beginning Berean, 

    Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

    All things were made through this one man, without this one man nothing would have been made that was made. All things were made by reason of and for this one man, and it is this one man who is returning IN THE GLORY of our Father. 

    Moreover, we are to be partakers of the One Spirit as Jesus is, the Spirit this one man received upon his resurrection.

    We too are to be heirs of God as he is, a Son of God according to the Spirit as he is, promised to be glorified together, receiving the glory that was promised from God for man from the beginning.

    As this one man received the Spirit (the DIVINE NATURE of God) and it caused him to walk in all of God’s ways, we too will partake of that DIVINE NATURE and be caused to walk in all of God’s ways!!  

    October 10, 2020 at 2:01 pm#866724
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    October 10, 2020 at 2:50 pm#866725
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    The Word became flesh and Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Must be a coincidence Jodi.

    Me: You deny that the son of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, became Christ according to God’s promised word, so it seems.

    The WORD of God was made true in Jesus of Nazareth, Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61, 

    That WORD was that the son of Jesse would be anointed with God’s Spirit without limit, a calling to righteousness where God would direct all his ways and SEND this anointed man out into the world to be our savior.

    Acts 10:37  That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Acts 3: 6 Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”

    The man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth was anointed becoming Christ, and then was SENT out into the world, thus you have Christ coming in the flesh, which is EXACTLY as God had PROMISED that he would come, thus you have God’s WORD made flesh.

    Come on now Berean, the people didn’t behold the glory of Jesus the anointed because he pre-existed and left his glory behind, the people beheld his glory as he performed signs and miracles because he had been begotten with the Spirit.  Berean, God promised unto the son of Jesse that He would not give His glory to any other, the people beheld that glory. The people didn’t see him as full of grace and truth because he pre-existed and became a half-breed baby, but because he was the promised son of Jesse who at the river Jordan was the one man to  receive the Spirit of WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING, COUNCIL AND MIGHT, KNOWLEDGE AND REVERENCE FOR THE LORD. 

    John 20: 30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    Berean, do you see the details, people believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, BECAUSE OF THE ANOINTING SPIRIT THAT CAME UPON HIM at the river Jordan, which it was then, mind you, that we are told that he was SENT out into the world. Notice likewise that when he was sent into the wilderness, the adversary acknowledges him as a Son of God BECAUSE of the powers of the Spirit that came to dwell within him at the river Jordan. 

     

    October 10, 2020 at 3:12 pm#866726
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The HolySpirit puts ever thing under the subjection of Christ,
    Christ then baptizes them with God’s HolySpirit; so that God may be all in all.

    I hope you understand now as it’s not complicated at all.

    So the Spirit rides a horse, then Christ goes around baptising everything with the Spirit? Well I understand, but I would also understand if someone said 1+1=3. Doesn’t mean I agree though.

    October 10, 2020 at 3:33 pm#866727
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    How does this fit your doctrine, you say Jesus left his glory behind but yet the people saw his glory?

    John 1:14 “…and we beheld his glory…””

    How does this fit your doctrine, you say Jesus left his glory behind to temporarily become a man, don’t you?..but yet it is Jesus as a Son of Man who dwells in the glory of the Father.

    Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

    How does the below passage fit in with your doctrine, 

    Acts 2:30 “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 

    How do these passages fit your doctrine, 

    Romans 1 “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Acts 2:33 “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

     

    October 10, 2020 at 8:27 pm#866729
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    The devil does not want the world to know the real identity of Jesus.

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus

    ( Revelation 12:17)

    God bless

    So true. This has been a fight from the beginning. The seed of the woman that would crush the head of the serpent delivering him a fatal blow has seen the enemy try everything to stop this. Scripture attests to the dragon wanting to kill the child and prior to that trying to corrupt the lineage for the promised seed. But since the promise has already taken place now, the Devil fights against all who believe. This includes hiding the truth of who Jesus Christ is and his victory over death and corruption and the true promise that awaits all who are faithful.

    October 10, 2020 at 8:32 pm#866730
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ed. In this case this is probably a specific number. And yes it is possible that there are numerical patterns in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. But I find many take this way too far. If you want, you can relate anything to anything else if you are creative enough. It doesn’t make it mean anything though.

    October 10, 2020 at 8:40 pm#866731
    Berean
    Participant

    How does this fit your doctrine, you say Jesus left his glory behind but yet the people saw his glory?

    John 1:14 “…and we beheld his glory…””

    Me

    I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    [5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.(John 17)

    Since Jesus prays his Father to glorify him near himself with the glory that he HAD WITH HIMSELF …. THIS IS THAT GLORY HE HAD GONE.

    ONLY SOME APOSTLES (PETER, JAMES, JOHN) HAVE SEEN JESUS TRANSFIGURED WITH THE GLORY OF GOD (And for a short period of time)

    WE SEE THIS IN MATH 17: 1-7

    And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    [2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    [3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    [4] Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    [5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    God bless

     

    October 11, 2020 at 6:27 am#866732
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You are not getting my point at all.

    Jesus is still a man, and you are told that he as a man has the glory of the Father.  

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 

    Berean, you are trying to tell me that Peter, James, and John saw Jesus as his pre-existing glorious self, the glory that he would return to?

    That is just not so at all according to scripture.

    The glory that they saw was glory of a MAN having the glory of the Father. 

    Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

    Rev 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Peter, James, and John saw the Son of Man, the son of Jesse of Isaiah’s prophecies, in the glory of the Father,

    Isaiah 11:4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 

     

     

    October 11, 2020 at 6:55 am#866733
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    You are not getting my point at all.

     

    Jesus is still a man, and you are told that he as a man has the glory of the Father.

     

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Me

    Not Only in the Glory of the Father but

    In His OWN Glory….

    Read Luk 9:26

    For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    God bless

     

    October 11, 2020 at 7:22 am#866734
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Please address specifically,

    You are told that YHVH made all things alone, all by Himself, and that He declared the END from the beginning. As YHVH declared the end from the beginning, He likewise revealed that word of the end to the prophets. That end you are directly told is a son of David who is given an eternal throne, a Son of Man who is given dominion overall that YHVH had created by Himself. Thus it is of ABSOLUTE TRUTH and should be obvious that WHEN YHVH was making the heavens and the earth alone for the purpose to put a Son of Man on an eternal throne, then all that YHVH made, He did so by reason of and for this Son of Man. 

    Likewise we are told that it is by ONE MAN that peace was made, by one man there is a resurrection unto eternal life. Therefore it should be obvious to you that in this ONE MAN do all things consist, without this man, nothing would have been made that was made.  The earth wasn’t made for the purpose of  an eternal pattern of sin and death, it wasn’t made in vain, it was made for that which the one man would execute, salvation and righteousness. Without this END that this one man brings forth to which YHVH had specifically declared would be done by this one man from the beginning, nothing would have been made that was made, YHVH had all things consisting in him from the beginning. 

    October 11, 2020 at 8:17 am#866735
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Read Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    ME: Exactly, THE SON OF MAN has his own glory!! This verse seems to speak totally against you Berean, as it speaks to the Son of Man having his own glory. 

    What does the passage mean? 

    The Son of Man Jesus, is coming in the glory of the Father, because Jesus has His Spirit upon him directing all his ways. Jesus will also once again on earth do the work of the Father in the Father’s name. He is the man ordained of God to judge the quick and the dead, and he will do so not with his own eyes and ears, but through the Spirit of God that has been eternally bestowed upon him, the Spirit that is life because of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    The Son of Man Jesus, is coming in his own glory, he was raised a firstborn of many, where unlike all the rest that sleep the sleep of death, his body was not allowed to see decay before it was changed into a human body of glory, power, made incorruptible. As the firstborn of many who had died for our sins, he received a portion with the great, and he has received the honor to divide the spoil with the strong. The Son of Man Jesus comes in the glory as a king of kings and a lord of lords. He has glory as the leader over the Saints to complete God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place. 

    Berean, Jesus is returning having the glory of the one man to whom God declared from the beginning would come and execute God’s purpose.

    Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

    Before the Son of Man went to die on the cross, he asked God for the glory that was from God for the Son of Man that God had declared from the beginning!

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