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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • Author
    Posts
  • October 6, 2020 at 9:57 am#866602
    Berean
    Participant

    The words OF God are truth.

     

    October 6, 2020 at 12:00 pm#866603
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..if you are following this, please tell Edj , that you full well know that Jesus “himself” is not The word of God. He is the ” result” or “fulfillment” of the Word of  or “from” God.  

    I find it hard that Edj, can’t understand that, Please answer him so he can clearly understand it.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    October 6, 2020 at 12:18 pm#866604
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi  Ed J and All,

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    well the name Jesus means YHVH is salvation,  and that indeed is YHVH’s word, as YHVH had promised to bring forth salvation.

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

    How does YHVH save us?

    According to Isaiah 46, YHVH declared from the beginning that a man would come and fulfill this promised word of salvation.

    According to Acts, by YHVH’s determined purpose and foreknowledge, that man would shed his blood to bring forth salvation.

    Therefore we can understand rather easily, why we read in Revelation that, “he is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God”.

    Jesus’ name is the word of God, as Jesus’ name means “YHVH is salvation”, such  is YHVH’s word, a promise of salvation that He made, to which He would fulfill through Jesus shedding his blood.

    October 6, 2020 at 7:42 pm#866606
    Berean
    Participant

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Revelation 21:11-21 speaks of Jesus’ vengeful return as King of kings and Lord of lords.
    His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
    In John 1 he is called “THE WORD”.
    And it is said to us that HE who is called “THE WORD” WAS WITH THE GOD AND WAS GOD.
    AND WAS MADE FLESH (V.14).
    HOW LONG WILL YOU START BELIEVING THIS WONDERFUL AND SIMPLE TRUTH….?????

    October 6, 2020 at 8:09 pm#866607
    Ed J
    Participant

    You are right and so is Jodi, you both saying the same thing EDJ.

    No we’re NOT Gene!
    here are Jodi’s words…

    “Jesus’ name is the word of God” (post #866604)

    Now Gene,

    “is Jesus name the word of God?”

    “Yes” or “No”

    Jodi says “Yes”
    I say “No”

    What say you?

    No more trying to walk the fence Gene,
    you either agree with me or agree with Jodi.

    which do you choose Gene?

     

    A “Yes, Jesus is name the word of God”
    or
    B “No, Jesus is name NOT the word of God”

    October 6, 2020 at 8:16 pm#866608
    Ed J
    Participant

    Gene,

    Please no more crack-pot answers saying me and Jodi are saying the same thing – as clearly we are NOT!

    October 6, 2020 at 8:17 pm#866609
    Ed J
    Participant

    Berean, the word “robe” is not in the text

    October 6, 2020 at 8:36 pm#866610
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, how about an honest yes / no answer. Be brave and we will see where things land. It is how people learn. But if you cannot be honest, then you cannot learn and that is sad for you.

    October 6, 2020 at 8:56 pm#866611
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi T8, Good!

    Do you therefore agree:

    A. “The Word” of God is “The Bible” (the literal word of God)
    and/or
    B. “The Word” of God is “God’s spoken word” (message)

    Are both A and B correct?

    “Yes” or “No”?

    Sorry EdJ, but I have to say sometimes because of the way you have worded these, they are not fair yes/ no questions. I will reword it for you as it should have been expressed so I can say yes or no.

    1. Is The Bible The word of God? Yes.
    2. Is God’s spoken word the word of God? Yes.

    You see the Word of God is not always the Bible. I am sure you understand what I am saying here.

    Also, I do not even know why you need to ask this anyway. I have always believed and never taught otherwise that there is a literal word of God or message of God. No one denies that God doesn’t speak, have a word, message, or that scripture is also the word. You would know this if you actually read my posts, even one of them that mentions this.

    What I teach is that Jesus name is the Word of God. So he is the Word of God. His name is Jesus, he is Jesus.

    I have been teaching from the very beginning of this forum (around 20 years) that most people get muddled up with identity vs quality. Or a person vs an attribute. As I have taught, usually the definite article defines a person as opposed to an attribute. In English it works like this.

    You are an angel.

    You are the angel.

    One qualifies a person’s character the other identifies a particular person or being. (notice that both are valid sentences). You don’t have to choose one over the other.

    And I don’t know how many times I have quote this, but I will do it again. This is how the early fathers interpreted Jesus Christ as the Word of God.

    Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D)

    Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten. (23).

    And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him; 

    For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is out of the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. 

    And God, the Father of the cosmos, who is the perfect intelligence, the truth. And the Word, being His Son, came to us, having put on flesh, revealing both himself and the Father, giving to us in himself resurrection from the dead, and eternal life afterwards. And this is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord. (On the Resurrection, 1).

    Tatian (165 A.D)

    And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world 

    For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. 

    Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)

    God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. He [the Word] is called “the Beginning”

    Irenaeus (ca. 185 A.D)

    who believe in the One and true God, and in Jesus Christ the Son of God

    And therefore One God, the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ. But the Word is through all things, and is himself the head of the church, 

    Therefore then does the Lord plainly show that it was the true Lord and the One God who had been set forth by the Law for Him whom the law proclaimed as “God”, the same did Christ point out as the Father,

    Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200)

    The Son is the power of God, as being the Father’s most ancient Word before the making of all things. 

    He is the true only-begotten, the express image of the glory of the Universal King and Almighty Father…. [the only-begotten] the Second Cause. 

    Origen

    “We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article [“the”], and in some he omits it. He adds the article [“the”] to logos, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article [“the”], when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the logos is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article [“the], and theos without it, prevail also between logos with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As God who is over all is theos with the article [“the”] not without it, so also “the” logos is the source of that logos (reason} which dwells in every reasonable creature; the logos which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence “the” logos. 

    Gene and Ed J (2020)

    Jesus Christ is NOT the Word of God.

     

    October 6, 2020 at 9:27 pm#866612
    Berean
    Participant

    @Edj

    Revelation 19:13, NIV: “He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.”

    Revelation 19:13, ESV: “He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.”

    Revelation 19:13, KJV: “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”

    Revelation 19:13, NASB: “He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.”

    Revelation 19:13, NLT: “He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God.”

    Revelation 19:13, CSB: “He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God.”

     

    13
    kai peribeblhmenoV imation bebammenon aimati kai kaleitai to onoma autou o logoV tou qeou

    2440
    imation
    himation
    him-at’-ee-on

    neuter of a presumed derivative of ennumi (to put on); a dress (inner or outer):–apparel, cloke, clothes, garment, raiment, robe, vesture.

    October 7, 2020 at 12:05 am#866613
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi T8, Good!

    Do you therefore agree:

    A. “The Word” of God is “The Bible” (the literal word of God)
    and/or
    B. “The Word” of God is “God’s spoken word” (message)

    Are both A and B correct?

    “Yes” or “No”?

    Sorry EdJ, but I have to say sometimes because of the way you have worded these, they are not a fair yes/ no questions. I will reword it for you as it should have been expressed so I can say yes or no.

    Is The Bible The word of God? Yes.
    Is God’s spoken word the word of God? Yes.

    Hi T8,

    I was trying to blend my words (with yours);
    sorry if they appeared to come out a bit clumsy.
    Yes, thanks I can go your more direct wording here.

    As for the rest of what you believe,
    that is where we see things differently.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    October 7, 2020 at 12:15 am#866614
    Ed J
    Participant

    What I teach is that Jesus name is the Word of God. So he is the Word of God. His name is Jesus, he is Jesus.

    Hi T8,

    There is no-where where Scripture teaches that directly.
    You are merely going by innuendo based solely on inference.

    Let me give you a comparative example so you can understand my point:

    The JW’s believe Jesus is/was Michael the Archangel. How do they draw this conclusion?
    By going by innuendo based solely on inference, same as what you are doing.

    “For the Lord himself (Jesus) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
    and with the trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16)

    See Jesus is Michael the archangel.

    “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses,
    durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, JEHOVAH rebuke thee.” (Jude 1:9)

    See Jesus is Michael the archangel.

    But the problem is: they refuse to closely examine certain specific which discount their religiously taught interpretations.

    That is what you do as well. I have shown you specific verses which discount your preconceived religiously taught belief.
    And have also shown you specific verses which is stronger evidence that “The Word” is instead God’s HolySpirit”
    We can re-explore these verses if you want. One’s that discount your view, and ones that exemplify mine.

    Let me know. Or you can just sit back and read my reasoning to Gene, Jodi and Berean.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    October 7, 2020 at 12:28 am#866615
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Edj

    Is his name The Word of God or not?

    October 7, 2020 at 12:30 am#866616
    Ed J
    Participant

    @Edj

    Revelation 19:13, KJV: “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”

    See Berean: vesture means clothing. Loose the religious brainwashing.
    Compare Isaiah 63 to Rev 19 and you will see what verse 10 clearly states:

    “But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.” (Isaiah 63:10)
    God’s HolySpirit is the rider on the white horse, The Word, that does the fighting against the rebellious! (ref Revelation 19:11, 13)

    Let me show you one more thing…

    “The LORD (JEHOVAH) said unto my Lord (Jesus Christ),
    Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    The rod of Jesus strength, GOD’s HOLY SPIRIT, rules in the midst of his enemies as Rev 19 AND Isaiah 63 clearly state.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    October 7, 2020 at 12:33 am#866617
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj

    Is his name The Word of God or not?

    Hi T8,

    God’s HolySpirit is the “His” in Rev 19:13, and yes “His” name is “The Word”

    “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them
    (1)in the name of the Father, and (2)of the Son, and (3)of the HolySpirit” (Matt 28:19)

    1. the name of the Father… YeHoVaH (see Isaiah 12:2)
    2. the name of the Son… YA-shu-a (see Hebrews 4:14)
    3. the name of the HolySpirit… “The Word” (see Rev 19:11)

    October 7, 2020 at 12:37 am#866620
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Is his name Jesus?

    October 7, 2020 at 12:40 am#866621
    Ed J
    Participant

    Is his name Jesus?

    “No”, not in verse Rev 19:13

    October 7, 2020 at 12:40 am#866622
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If Jesus was the rider on the white horse, then he would be the Word of God?

    Yes / No

    October 7, 2020 at 12:43 am#866623
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Son is called Jesus so he is Jesus. If he is called the Word of God, then he would be the Word of God right?

    I know you believe the rider is not Jesus. But the context of the question is if Jesus was the rider, then Jesus would be The Word of God, right?

    October 7, 2020 at 12:44 am#866624
    Ed J
    Participant

    His name is Jesus in this verse:

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
    and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)

    But “The Word” is no-where to be found among the names attributed to Jesus in verse 6

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