Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic has 25,933 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 2 days, 1 hour ago by GeneBalthrop.

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May 25, 2020 at 9:10 am#864197
mikeboll64
Blocked
Carmel: Jodi, first of all, IGNOR COMPLETELY YOUR HUMAN MENTALITY…
With what, then, will we understand scripture? I understand that spirit can reveal heavenly things to us. But we still decipher and make sense of those things with our God-given human mentality. We have nothing else by which to make sense of them.
Carmel, people have been saying “you must understand it spiritually, not carnally” for centuries. I’ve noticed that the people who say this are always the ones arguing for completely nonsensical doctrines that can’t possibly be backed up by a sensible and rational understanding of the scriptures. If your doctrine requires you to claim that it doesn’t make sense to human mentality, then I’m pretty sure your doctrine is just plain wrong. Jehovah is not a god of confusion, and the scriptures were written for the benefit of human beings – therefore they must be able to make sense TO human beings. Otherwise they’re useless.
May 25, 2020 at 9:18 am#864198
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Mike…..There is not one scripture that says Jesus “prexisted” his actual existence on this earth…
You’re right Gene. There is not ONE scripture that says it… there are DOZENS of them. 😉 Peace and love…
May 25, 2020 at 9:31 am#864199
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Mike……Sorry it was Cyrus, not Darius that God prophesied about before he was even born, about 200 hundred years before. Isa 45:1-4
But no one applies a preexistence life to him, why?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
That’s a fair point, Gene… the best I’ve seen you make on this topic. And I would agree that there is nothing in God’s language about raising up a future savior (Cyrus or Jesus) that would necessitate said savior preexisting. But if there were dozens of other scriptures about Cyrus preexisting like there are for Jesus, then I’d be arguing WITH scripture that both Jesus and Cyrus preexisted. As it stands, those other scriptures are only about Jesus, and so I argue WITH scripture that only Jesus preexisted his humanity.

May 25, 2020 at 9:39 am#864200
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Jesus asks to be RETURNED to the glory that he had been previously GIVEN (past tense)…

Carmel: NO MIKE, JESUS SIMPLY ASKED THE FATHER TO HAVE THAT SAME GLORY WHICH HE HAD IN HEAVEN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, BUT THIS TIME ALSO ON EARTH…
Of course Jesus is asking to be returned to that glory IN HEAVEN… not that his heavenly glory be given to him while he was still on earth. But for argument’s sake, let’s accept your understanding. Why didn’t Jesus’ God grant the request Jesus prayed for then? Because although God gave a couple apostles a quick glimpse of what Jesus’ glory in heaven was like (the transfiguration), Jesus didn’t spend the rest of his days on earth shining brighter than the sun, right? So that means God must not have granted Jesus’ request, right? Why not?
May 25, 2020 at 10:06 am#864201
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: If your response there said this:
Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but then identified a member of that unity, who is the Son, as the “holy servant Jesus” which he is often called in his role as the Messiah, btw, and elsewhere as “YHVH our Righteousness”.
If your response was that, then you would be correct.
No, that doesn’t work. If they are praying TO a unity that involves both the Father and the Son (w or w/o the Spirit), then by identifying “a member of that unity” as the holy servant OF that unity, they then are essentially identifying him as a servant of HIMSELF.
“Dear heavenly Creator Larry, Mo & Curly… please grant us this power in the name of your holy servant Mo.”
See? Mo – a part of the unity of Larry, Mo & Curly – is identified as a servant OF the unity of Larry, Mo & Curly. How can Mo be a servant of himself?
What about the last part of my post? The part where I asked you what your answer would be if you were FORCED to give the most rational, sensible, straightforward explanation of that prayer?
If you were compelled by “the unction of the Holy Spirit” (Worshiping Jesus used to always talk about that 😅) to give the most REASONABLE explanation, would you agree that you would say it seems as if they prayed TO one Sovereign Lord who created everything, and prayed THROUGH that Sovereign Lord’s holy servant Jesus?
May 25, 2020 at 10:30 am#864204
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Mike,
Do you believe that YHVH and his “ARM” aka “YHVH our Righteousness” are in disunity? Yes or no?
Do YOU believe YHVH’s arm has a mind and a will of its own? 😉 Surely you refer to John 12:38. The Trinitarians who produced the NET Bible say this…
“The arm of the Lord” is an idiom for “God’s great power” (as exemplified through Jesus’ miraculous signs). This response of unbelief is interpreted by the author as a fulfillment of the prophetic words of Isaiah (Isa 53:1). The phrase ὁ βραχίων κυρίου (Jo braciwn kuriou) is a figurative reference to God’s activity and power which has been revealed in the sign-miracles which Jesus has performed (compare the previous verse).
So it’s an idiom referring to God’s power. That power of God was revealed by “miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through [Jesus of Nazareth], as you yourselves know.”  (Acts 2:22) John wasn’t saying that Jesus WAS the arm of YHVH… only that God’s power was revealed THROUGH His servant Jesus, and that many who actually saw the signs still wouldn’t believe.
As for “YHVH our Righteousness”, the city of Jerusalem is also called by that same title, right? (Jer 33:16) So if you’re not going to use that title to promote the idea that the city of Jerusalem is part of a Jehovah Unity, then should you really be using it to promote your idea that Jesus is part of a Jehovah Unity? 🤔
May 25, 2020 at 11:18 am#864205
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Mike,
You asked:
When has Jesus GIVEN power, authority, position or revelation TO his and our God?
My answer:
When he (the Son) was begotten before the ages he gave the YHVH who beget him, the honor of the position of being a father.
When the Son made all things in heaven and on earth, he gave the YHVH who beget him, the honor of the position of the creator.
When the Son was slain before the foundation of the world he gave the YHVH who beget him, the honor of the position of the future redeemer, savior, shepherd, etc.
Apart from the Son, the YHVH who beget him would not have the honor to be in the position of a father, a creator, a redeemer, a savior, a shepherd, etc.
Let me rephrase my question, sans the word “position” that you so clearly zeroed in on to make your very weak “points”. 😁
Kathi, has Jesus ever GIVEN any power, authority, or revelation TO his and our God?
Since the answer is an unequivocal “NO”, I’ve made my point that you should not be going around trying to equate God and his servant Jesus by insinuating that they both need each other equally. God has the power to do anything He wants any time He wants. His holy servant Jesus, on the other hand, can do NOTHING apart from his and our God, YHVH.
Btw…
“…the Son made all things in heaven and on earth…” No. Jesus is the holy servant of the One who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
“…the Son was slain before the foundation of the world…” No. That is a very poor translation.

May 25, 2020 at 12:36 pm#864206
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You asked:
Kathi, has Jesus ever GIVEN any power, authority, or revelation TO his and our God?
Mike, without having the position of creator, YHVH would not have the authority as the creator, so giving YHVH the position of creator is also giving YHVH the authority as the creator. Also, without having the position of father, YHVH would not have the authority as the father…the same with redeemer, savior, and shepherd. The Son made it possible for YHVH to have the authority as the Creator, the Father, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Shepherd, etc. Apart from the Son, YHVH would not be in authority as the Creator, Father, Redeemer, Savior, and Shepherd, etc.
May 25, 2020 at 12:41 pm#864207
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You said:
“…the Son made all things in heaven and on earth…” No. Jesus is the holy servant of the One who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
“…the Son was slain before the foundation of the world…” No. That is a very poor translation.
Jesus is the holy servant of YHVH, the unity of which He is a member of.
Do you think that a member of a unity cannot serve that unity of which they are a member of? A pastor is a member of the body of Christ, a unity called the church. The pastor also serves the body of Christ, the unity of which he is a member of. This is simple.
Also, the scripture says the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. The Lamb is the Son of God.
May 25, 2020 at 12:44 pm#864208
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You said:
Do YOU believe YHVH’s arm has a mind and a will of its own? Surely you refer to John 12:38. The Trinitarians who produced the NET Bible say this…
“The arm of the Lord” is an idiom for “God’s great power” (as exemplified through Jesus’ miraculous signs). This response of unbelief is interpreted by the author as a fulfillment of the prophetic words of Isaiah (Isa 53:1). The phrase ὁ βραχίων κυρίου (Jo braciwn kuriou) is a figurative reference to God’s activity and power which has been revealed in the sign-miracles which Jesus has performed (compare the previous verse).
So it’s an idiom referring to God’s power. That power of God was revealed by “miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through [Jesus of Nazareth], as you yourselves know.”  (Acts 2:22) John wasn’t saying that Jesus WAS the arm of YHVH… only that God’s power was revealed THROUGH His servant Jesus, and that many who actually saw the signs still wouldn’t believe.
As for “YHVH our Righteousness”, the city of Jerusalem is also called by that same title, right? (Jer 33:16) So if you’re not going to use that title to promote the idea that the city of Jerusalem is part of a Jehovah Unity, then should you really be using it to promote your idea that Jesus is part of a Jehovah Unity?
Yes I believe that God’s great power is a person distinct from the Father with a mind and a will of his own. His name is YHVH our Righteousness and there is a city named after Him, Jerusalem…the city of the great King.
May 25, 2020 at 12:52 pm#864209
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You said:
No, that doesn’t work. If they are praying TO a unity that involves both the Father and the Son (w or w/o the Spirit), then by identifying “a member of that unity” as the holy servant OF that unity, they then are essentially identifying him as a servant of HIMSELF.
Once again, the pastor is a servant to the church, a unity of believers of which he is also a member of.
You said:
If you were compelled by “the unction of the Holy Spirit” (Worshiping Jesus used to always talk about that ) to give the most REASONABLE explanation, would you agree that you would say it seems as if they prayed TO one Sovereign Lord who created everything, and prayed THROUGH that Sovereign Lord’s holy servant Jesus?
Shoot me, I don’t care, I would say it the way I said it so that it would be a clear representation of my belief. Here it is again:
The apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but then identified a member of that unity, who is the Son, as the “holy servant Jesus” which he is often called in his role as the Messiah, BTW, and elsewhere as “YHVH our Righteousness”.
May 25, 2020 at 1:24 pm#864210
Proclaimer
Participant
The apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
Your making this up yourself. Jesus taught us to pray in his name, but to the Father. When will you agree with Jesus?
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
“This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, a
but deliver us from the evil one.
May 25, 2020 at 2:05 pm#864211
Lightenup
Participant
t8,
You can pray directly to Jesus…He is YHVH our Righteousness. He loves it when we talk to Him! It’s ok.
Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
1 Cor 1:2
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
May 26, 2020 at 5:33 am#864228
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: The Son made it possible for YHVH to have the authority as the Creator, the Father, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Shepherd, etc. Apart from the Son, YHVH would not be in authority as the Creator, Father, Redeemer, Savior, and Shepherd, etc.
These claims are so very weak that they don’t even deserve a response. As if my son somehow GAVE me the power and authority to be a father or create him. 🙄
Hopefully you have at least learned to not go around claiming that the Father NEEDS Jesus to do anything, while at the same time retaining Jesus’ own teaching that he can do nothing apart from the Father.
May 26, 2020 at 5:40 am#864229
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Jesus is the holy servant of YHVH, the unity of which He is a member of.
No, Jesus is the holy servant of the “Sovereign Lord” (singular) who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. I learned that from Jesus’ apostles.
Doesn’t your “binity Godhead unity” thing consist of TWO completely distinct Lords/Gods? How does that reconcile with the apostles praying to only ONE Lord who created all things, and then identifying Jesus as the holy servant of that ONE Lord?
May 26, 2020 at 5:47 am#864230
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Do you think that a member of a unity cannot serve that unity of which they are a member of? A pastor is a member of the body of Christ, a unity called the church. The pastor also serves the body of Christ, the unity of which he is a member of. This is simple.
Simple? More like “simple-minded”. 😉 Will you really claim that Pastor Fred is the holy servant of Pastor Fred? Come on now. Kathi, you are lost in your own imagination, and I pray that the holy servant of the Sovereign Lord (singular) who created all things will somehow lead you to truth.
May 26, 2020 at 5:54 am#864231
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Yes I believe that God’s great power is a person distinct from the Father with a mind and a will of his own. His name is YHVH our Righteousness and there is a city named after Him, Jerusalem…the city of the great King.
No, God’s great power is power that belongs to God. That power doesn’t have a mind or will of it’s own, because power is not a sentient person. Besides, if Jesus is “the power” of the Father, then the Father is powerless without Jesus. Yet Jesus tells us that it’s HE who is powerless without his own God – who he also tells us happens to be OUR God too. So how can the very power of the Father be powerless to do anything apart from the Father?
And the name “Jehovah IS our Righteousness” doesn’t refer to a person or a city literally BEING the actual righteousness of the Father. All your theories are built upon shifting sand, and they topple over with just a tiny bit of scrutiny.
May 26, 2020 at 6:02 am#864232
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Also, the scripture says the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. The Lamb is the Son of God.
No they don’t. That is a poor translation…
Revelation 13:8 NET Bible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.
The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”, but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.
Revelation 17:8 NIV (and every other Bible)
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

It is the names of the saved that have been written in the book of life from the creation of the world. It is not the Lamb who has undergone thousands of years of constantly being slain from the creation of the world. *

* For Jodi and Gene: Even if your names are among those that were written in the Book of Life from the founding of the world, you can not sensibly ask God for any Book of Life-related glory you HAD when the earth was in the process of being created. 😉
May 26, 2020 at 6:10 am#864233
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Shoot me, I don’t care… The apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…
And do all three of those entities comprise ONE SINGULAR “Sovereign Lord” in your doctrine?
May 26, 2020 at 6:15 am#864234
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: You can pray directly to Jesus…He is YHVH our Righteousness… It’s ok.
It’s also apparently okay to pray directly to the city of Jerusalem, who is also YHVH our Righteousness. 😉
Jeremiah 33:16
In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely, and this is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.
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