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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 20,261 through 20,280 (of 25,945 total)
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  • April 23, 2020 at 4:12 am#863274
    Lightenup
    Participant

    While we are at it, Gene and Jodi, compare these words “the Lord of me” in both these verses as they are in the Greek:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 12.01.30 PM

    “And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?

    Compare with this:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 12.02.41 PM

    Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    You will see that the Greek words for “the Lord of me” in both verses are the same numbers in the Strong’s dictionary: #3588, #2962, #1473.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/20-28.htm

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/20-28.htm

     

    April 23, 2020 at 4:59 am#863275
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    I can call Jesus the master, as I can call him the king, as I can call him the Christ, or the Son of God.

    Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Just as Jesus is THE Christ and THE Son, he is THE lord, and THE king.

    THE lord and THE Christ, according to Acts specifically, would equate unto us as THE MAN of whom is THE son of David, and THE Son of God according to the Holy Spirit by his resurrection from the dead. 

    April 23, 2020 at 5:23 am#863276
    Lightenup
    Participant

    So Jodi,

    Why have you been calling him “a lord” if he is “the lord?”

    April 23, 2020 at 5:31 am#863277
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    Here is a passage where “my” mou and “lord” kurios, represent a rich man.

    Luke 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

    here is a verse for you,

    29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is ONE Lord:

    There is the lord our God who is one Lord

    and

    There is the lord Jesus the Anointed

    This God is Jesus’s God and our God, Jesus’s Father and our Father John 20:17.

    This God MADE Jesus both lord and Christ. OUR God ordained the man Jesus to judge the righteous and the unrighteous.

     

     

    April 23, 2020 at 5:55 am#863278
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    The Luke 16:3 is a good verse to show that Strong’s #2962 could be lord as in human master, or Lord who has all authority in heaven and on earth. Is the Son of God the Lord of you in the sense of having all authority in heaven and on earth?

     

    April 23, 2020 at 6:05 am#863279
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Matthew 20:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    Matthew 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

    The lord referenced above is called “the lord” for being “a” lord over the vineyard.

    Jesus is “a” lord according to being made “a” lord by his God and our God. 

    Referring to Jesus as the Lord would be specific to what he is “a” lord of, as to his POSITION as a lord that his God and our God gave him.

    5 And he said unto them,That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

    I can rightfully say that Jesus the Son of man is the Lord over the Sabbath.

    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    LU, Jesus is a lord of lords, a king of kings, as a SON OF MAN of whom his God and our God gave him glory.

    Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

    Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

     

    April 23, 2020 at 6:06 am#863280
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: 29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is ONE Lord

    Here is the original Greek:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 1.54.36 PM

    Here is a more accurate translation when you consider a more literal translation to the Greek.

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    Can you see that your translation of this verse adds “lord” at the end where there is no “lord” written in the Greek at the end??

    April 23, 2020 at 6:12 am#863281
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    Can you say that Jesus is the Lord of you in the same sense as Elizabeth when Mary visited her while she was pregnant?

    Luke 1  39Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45“And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

    April 23, 2020 at 7:35 am#863282
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    Thanks to God that He use you to show us more  the truth about THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    God bless

    April 23, 2020 at 7:46 am#863283
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Considere Colossians 1:17a

    17a And he is before all things,…

    Thanks

    April 23, 2020 at 8:51 am#863284
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean ……here is your answer…….1Co 15: 26-27…..”for he (God) has put all things under his (Jesus’) feet.  BUT when he (God) says “all” things , are put under him, it is “manifest” that he (GOD THE FATHER) IS “EXCLUDED”. 

    Jesus himself said this not me….John 17:3…..And this is “life eternal”, that they might know you the “ONLY” TRUE GOD , and Jesus the (anointed one) whom you have sent.  

    And again…..1 Titus 2:5……” For there is “one” God, and “one” mediator between GOD and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ.  

    Berean,  how clearer could possibly get then that? Why do you spend all your energy denying those clear scriptures? Do you even spend any time even thinking about them? Have you been blinded so bad, you can’t even believe they are truly written in our scriptures.  So it is true as written if God sends unto them a deluding Spirit,  deceived they are,  and deceived they will be , unless God removes that deluding Spirit from them,   they simply can not understand nor perceive  the truth.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    April 23, 2020 at 12:39 pm#863288
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks for your encouragement Berean. May God be blessed!

    LU

    April 23, 2020 at 4:48 pm#863290
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi,

    The Luke 16:3 is a good verse to show that Strong’s #2962 could be lord as in human master, or Lord who has all authority in heaven and on earth. Is the Son of God the Lord of you in the sense of having all authority in heaven and on earth?

    ME:

    The Son of God is my Lord as he was appointed by his God and my God to have all authority, FOR the purpose of him to follow all of OUR God’s commands to fulfill all of OUR God’s will.  

    LU, prophecy of Isaiah 11 has not been fully completed yet. Jesus is not YHWH but the man who fulfills all of YHWH’s will.

    LU, the son of David who is a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, his name is JESUS.

    His God and my God, his Father and my Father’s name is YHWH.

    This is simple and clear.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold MY servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put MY Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I YHWH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is MY NAME and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    The Son of Man we are told returns in our Father’s glory. That alone should tell you your whole image of Jesus Christ is completely WRONG. 

    John 10:25 Jesus answered them,I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me is GREATER THAN ALL; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    April 23, 2020 at 8:50 pm#863292
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene , Jodi

    [17] And he is before all things, …

    CONSIDERE just this piece of verse

    Isn’t Jesus BEFORE all things?

    Paul said that JESUS IS BEFORE ALL THINGS….

     

     

    April 24, 2020 at 2:51 am#863294
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Derean…..No one is arguing that point, yes Jesus is before all things, except for His God and our God, his Father and our Father. I quoted that scripture directly that says that. You present Jesus as GOD himself, no scripture says that, Jesus never said he was God, those are the concepts of false trinitarian religion, that infected the true church ,   from the “GNOSTIC’S ” WHO CREATED THE FALSE IMAGE OF JESUS being a GOD,  in the first place .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    April 24, 2020 at 3:08 am#863295
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi

    Considere Colossians 1:17a

    17a And he is before all things,…

    Thanks

    ME:

    Berean, why don’t YOU consider the CONTEXT of “and he is before all things..” that is directly given to you in the passage. You are not only directly told as to WHO the “he” IS, but also the very meaning to him being said to be “before” all things. 

    17 And he is before all things, and through him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things he might have the preeminence (to be first, hold the first place). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him SHOULD all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him to reconcile all things unto himself;

    Let me highlight this in a different way to help you see the context given and then please read the other passages you should apply.

    17 And he is before all things, and through him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things he MIGHT HAVE the preeminence (to be first, hold the first place). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him SHOULD all fullness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him (the Father that was in him) to reconcile all things unto himself (the Father);

    2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (NEW BIRTH) when THE SON OF MAN shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    17 And he (the Son of Man of the NEW BIRTH) is before all things, and through him all things consist (as the Father made peace unto all heaven and earth through his blood). 18 And he (the Son of Man of the NEW BIRTH) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things he MIGHT HAVE the preeminence (to be first, hold the first place). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him (the firstborn of the dead/the Son of Man of the NEW BIRTH) SHOULD all fullness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him (the Father that was in him) to reconcile all things unto himself (the Father);

    Berean the reason WHY we read “he might have” and “should” is because this is the WORD of our Father that He declared from the beginning now being told to us by Paul as having been fulfilled. 

    Don’t forget what you are told,

    Jesus shed his blood on the cross according to the “determined purpose and foreknowledge of God”

    1 Peter 1,

    “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”

    “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

    “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who through him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”

    April 24, 2020 at 4:06 am#863296
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Your recent post and actually nearly every post of yours, does not challenge the fact that myself and Christians all over the world believe that Jehovah is more than one person as a unity, where one has the position and true relationship of a father to another who has the position and relationship as his only begotten son. That Father/Son relationship presumes one is greater than the other in authority and in that sense the one with the greater authority would be God to the other. Together they are the unity of Jehovah to creation. Together, they alone created all things. Together they do all things that Jehovah is said to do. The Father does nothing apart from the Son, the Son does nothing apart from his Father.

    Blessings, LU

    April 24, 2020 at 6:04 am#863298
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: That Father/Son relationship presumes one is greater than the other in authority and in that sense the one with the greater authority would be God to the other.

    ME: 

    This is great! It’s nice to see you actually acknowledging a truth from scripture and making room for it in your doctrine.

    You acknowledge that the Son has a God and that God is greater than he. 

    Now it would be great if you could make more room in your doctrine for additional scripture,

    “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

    “But to us there is but ONE God, the Father”

    Let’s put it all together,

    Jesus has a God and that God is greater than him, his God and Father is also our God and Father, and for us there is thus ONE GOD, the Father. 

     

    April 24, 2020 at 6:44 am#863299
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Maybe there is even more additional room in your doctrine for more scriptures,

    “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

    “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

    “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    We see Jesus as a Lord unto the glory of his God and our God, our ONE GOD the Father, and this Jesus who was made a Lord unto us is a Son of Man who returns in the glory of our ONE GOD, the Father.

    “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:”

    “the gospel of God, which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Our unity of faith is to believe that Jesus is the seed of David and is a Son of God as a perfect man, according to God’s anointing Spirit, which he received as promised upon his resurrection from the dead. This was promised by our ONE GOD, the Father, before the world even began revealed by the prophets and also given to us by Paul.

    “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

    “But if the Spirit of him (One God, the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, HE that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

    Jesus’s resurrection is our resurrection, as he is a Son according to the Spirit that directs all his ways, we are promised to be resurrected as Sons, made perfect according to the Spirit, glorified together being joint heirs of the Spirit of the ONE GOD, the Father, with Jesus.

     

    April 24, 2020 at 7:10 am#863300
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……well put, Jesus certanly had a God he prayed to that he called his “father” in heaven, just as he told us to pray ” our ” Father who art in heaven”  by him saying “our”, that’s a all “inclusive ” term, which includes Jesus himself. 

    No scripture tells us to pray to Jesus as our GOD. He is our brother in the family of God, like it says the first born of “many” brethern. We can ask GOD the Father in the name of Jesus, but that’s a far cry from calling him GOD. IMO.

    LU, most trinitarians believe that once they start to question some of the false teaching they have received over the years, it represents a falling away from FAITH, but it only represent a falling away from  false religious concepts, they actually are gaining a  true Faith in the true GOD and Lord Jesus christ. Don’t let the fear of leaving false teaching and  years of traditions, keep you from comming to the truth.  Let the day star rise in your heart, as Peter said it can happen.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

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