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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 22, 2020 at 3:44 am#863244
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You are given that YHWH from the beginning gave His WORD of a man to come that would execute His purpose.

    CAN YOU BRING YOURSELF TO SAY THOSE WORDS? COULD YOU POSSIBLY PUT THOSE WORDS INTO YOUR HEART WHERE THEY BRING MEANING OF TRUTH TO YOU?

    By REASON OF and FOR

    WHO receives all things, and by whose hands is it directly said that created all things that are then given over to another?

    A Son of MAN receives all things to have dominion. A Son of Man sits at YHWH’s right hand. A Son of Man is returning, and a Son of Man is going to sit on a throne according to the flesh for all eternity.

    YHWH created all things by His Wisdom and Power, you are told He did so ALONE.

    Isaiah’s prophecies concerning the man anointed with YHWH’s Spirit are not yet fully completed. When the Son of Man returns he is fulfilling YHWH’s will through having YHWH’s Spirit upon him.

    CAN YOU BRING YOURSELF TO PUT YHWH’S WORDS THE PROPHET ISAIAH SAID INTO YOUR HEART AND HAVE THEM HOLD MEANING UNTO YOUR THOUGHTS? 

    READ and COMPARE,

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. 11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. 13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: 22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. 23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

     

    April 22, 2020 at 4:55 am#863247
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    I have many possible things to say about your recent posts. Perhaps I will get to that but I want to put this here for you. This should be clear to those who are willing to see that Jesus is THE Lord, not a Lord AND THE God of Thomas.

    Screen Shot 2020-04-21 at 12.40.58 PM

    John 20:27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”…

    April 22, 2020 at 6:08 am#863250
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You asked:

    Matthew 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Who is “he” that says there is none good but ONE?

    Jesus asks questions to some people and looks for evidence or lack of evidence of faith, then responds accordingly. He did not see evidence of the Holy Spirit revealing truth into the man’s life. If he had, he would have reponded in a different manner, imo.

    Hopeful, LU

    April 22, 2020 at 6:10 am#863251
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    If you had read my response to your “dia” argument, you wouldn’t keep mentioning it. See if you can find it.

    Have a good day, LU

     

    April 22, 2020 at 7:32 am#863252
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Matthew 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Who is “he” that says there is none good but ONE?
    Jesus asks questions to some people and looks for evidence or lack of evidence of faith, then responds accordingly. He did not see evidence of the Holy Spirit revealing truth into the man’s life. If he had, he would have reponded in a different manner, imo.

    ME: LU, Jesus was making the point that without his God he is nothing. It is the Spirit that brings forth life, the flesh profits nothing. He, like this man is to keep God’s commandments, Jesus is to follow the will of his God and our God. Such is the very reason why God raises Jesus from the dead, through the works of God’s Spirit Jesus had been perfected by God having learned obedience through suffering.

    Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him,Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 

    Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    The message we are given by the bible is that the law does not work righteousness it only produces sin, it was a tutor to bring us to Christ (the anointed of the Spirit).

    The law separates that which is good from that which is bad, right from wrong. God has used time and history to teach man, that he can do nothing of himself, his flesh profits him nothing. Paul tells us that to be carnally minded is death, and that the carnal mind cannot please God, it is not subject to the law nor indeed can be, such is why Paul says we are carnal sold under sin.

    We are given the law but it is not within our own selves to be able to keep it, as only God is good and we are but beasts of a carnal mind like all other creatures. CHRIST teaches us that man is good only through God’s Spirit dwelling within him. This is God’s mercy upon human beings, He gives us of His goodness so instead of being beasts, carnal creatures, we can live in His image.

    Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    We are joint heirs with Christ, we are promised to put on Christ-AN ANOINTING, the fullness of the Spirit that Jesus received, becoming an heir of God’s Spirit.

    If you change the image of Christ you cover up that which is the truth to your own salvation. Our Father is our savior and Jesus is the image as to how our Father saves us. The FLESH profits nothing it is the Spirit that brings forth eternal life. Jesus was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, he was begotten by God’s Spirit where it is to dwell in him for all eternity. His resurrection is our resurrection. He is the man raised first in an order.

    Our Father chose to wipe our sins clean through the suffering and death of one man, with the plan before the world began to then grant us access to the very full measure of the Spirit that He had given unto that one man that had caused him to be fully obedient. God has mercy on us because He knows that we have all sinned we have a fallen short, because we did not have the full measure of His Spirit as Jesus did. That Spirit is that which is necessary to keep us from sin. Jesus THE ANOINTED OF THE SPIRIT is proof to us that the Spirit indeed brings forth life, people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead, so we know that God is true, we know the great work that His Spirit does for a man, it brings forth righteousness and life. 

     

     

    April 22, 2020 at 8:16 am#863253
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene et Jodi

    Stay on Colossians 1

    be very careful

    COLOSSIANS 1: 16-17 KING JAMES BIBLE

    1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers : all things were created by him, and for him:[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    IN THESE TWO VERSES, WE HAVE THREE PREPOSITIONS THAT INTEREST US:
    “EN”(en), “DIA”(di) and “EIS”(eiV)

     

    oti en autw ektisqh ta panta ta en toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV ta orata kai ta aorata eite qronoi eite kuriothteV  eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiV auton ektistai

    1:16 For by(en) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(dia) him, and for(eiV) him:

    17
    kai autoV estin pro pantwn kai ta panta en autw sunesthken
    1:17 And he is before all things, and by(en) him all things consist.

     

     

    1722
    en
    en
    en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV – eis 1519 and 1537); “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

     

    1223
    dia
    dia
    dee-ah’
    a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

     

    1519
    eiV
    eis
    ice
    a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:–(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), …ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).

     

    VERSION GENE AND JODI  ?????

    IF you remove the “by him” and you adopt  the”for him” or “for the purpose of him”

    we have

    1:16 For “for  him” were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created for him, and for him

    1:17 And he is before all things, and for him all things consist.

    Don’t you think there is something wrong?

     

    Especially 

    “all things were created for him, and for him  “

    Please make an effort to review this

    For me I stick to the King James version…

     

     

     

    April 22, 2020 at 8:44 am#863254
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    You can’t take a passage and put meaning to it that is directly against other passages. 

    Luke 42:2 And Jesus said unto him,Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

    Jesus’s works were not his, these people gave praise unto who it was due, God.

    Luke 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; 38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. 

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her,I that speak unto thee am he.

    John 20:17 “Don’t cling to Me,” Jesus told her, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father to My God and your God.”

    Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him,Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 

    LU, YOU ARE NOT LISTENING AT ALL TO THE WORD OF THE PROPHET JESUS. His God is OUR God and His Father is our Father, and he says TRUE WORSHIPERS WORSHIP THE FATHER, he says that the Lord OUR God is ONE Lord. He is the Messiah, he is the prophet who was sent so that we may believe in the Lord our God who is ONE Lord. 

    We are to praise and worship the Father our Lord God who is One Lord for all His works.

    Jesus’s resurrection is to the PRAISE of our heavenly Father. Thomas when he realized Jesus was raised from the dead he PRAISED the Father, he was not calling Jesus his Lord and his God, otherwise he would be a total fool not having heard or believed anything that Jesus taught him. 

    THOMAS BELIEVES that the Father is true, that the Father raised up Jesus from the dead, and when he realizes such is true he gives praise unto Jesus’s God and his God, who is ONE lord.

    John 20:27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

     

    April 22, 2020 at 8:52 am#863255
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: LU, Jesus was making the point that without his God he is nothing.

    That is so far from reality.

    The Father and the Son do nothing apart from each other. Together they can do everything needed.

    April 22, 2020 at 9:13 am#863256
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You probably won’t like this verse either:

    1 Cor 11:23

    For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there, not “a lord” as you want to believe.

    April 22, 2020 at 9:20 am#863257
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You probably won’t like this verse either:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-21 at 5.12.07 PM

    Luke 1

    42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.…

    Literally translated “of the Lord of me.”

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there, not “a lord” as you want to falsely teach.

    April 22, 2020 at 9:33 am#863258
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    How many more verses do you want to see before you will admit that you have incorrectly been calling Jesus “a lord” and not “the Lord?” I could go on and on.

    Mark 16:19

    So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there too, not “a lord” as you want to falsely teach.

    April 22, 2020 at 10:28 am#863259
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I have already explained to you that what you say that we are saying is wrong.

    YOU: “all things were created for him, and for him”

    ME: That is not what Gene and I say.

    We say that all things were created DIA –by reason of him, and for him.

    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Berean, without the man who shed his blood there is no peace, there is no life, without him nothing would have been made by our Father, the Lord our God who is ONE Lord.

    YHWH says He created all things alone, by himself and He gives you the reason why He created it (Isaiah 44)! His promise before the world began was for man to obtain eternal life. He likewise tells you that from the beginning He planned to have a man come and execute that purpose.

    Berean please explain Isaiah’s word of God where you have YHWH saying that He created all things and then immediately talks about calling a man to righteousness for to execute His purpose (Isaiah 42 and 45)

    All things were created FOR him it says, and the him who we see receive it is a SON OF MAN, can you explain that? 

    April 22, 2020 at 11:08 am#863260
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Interesting as I see you not addressing the many scriptures I give!

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi,

    How many more verses do you want to see before you will admit that you have incorrectly been calling Jesus “a lord” and not “the Lord?” I could go on and on.

    Mark 16:19

    So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there too, not “a lord” as you want to falsely teach.

    ME: Um this is silly LU.

    Falsely teach what exactly according to this specific passage?

    I don’t treat “the” in that passage any different then I treat “the” in the below passages. 

    13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

    16 Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father’s flock.

    48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

    31 But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor great, save only with the king of Israel.

    LU here are some passages again,

    John 20:17 “Don’t cling to Me,” Jesus told her, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father to My God and your God.”

    Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him,Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    LU, JESUS is NOT THE LORD GOD who is ONE LORD, he is the son of David who RECEIVES, FROM THE LORD GOD who is ONE LORD, the throne of his father David. 

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    LU, the prophet IS NOT the Lord our God who is ONE Lord, he is a man raised up from among brethren by the Lord our God who is ONE Lord.

    Please speak directly of these passages.

     

     

     

    April 22, 2020 at 11:49 am#863261
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Isaiah 50:10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment….

    ….32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him,Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

    The SERVANT of YHWH is not YHWH. The name of the servant is not YHWH, it’s Jesus, and Jesus says that his God and our God is ONE lord. Jesus doesn’t say “I” am  or “we” are the Lord our God who is one Lord. His reference to the Lord our God who is one Lord, is not him giving reference to himself, he is speaking of his Father and our Father.

     

    April 22, 2020 at 12:31 pm#863262
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    ME: LU, Jesus was making the point that without his God he is nothing.

    YOU: That is so far from reality.

    The Father and the Son do nothing apart from each other. Together they can do everything needed.

    ME: It is obviously far from reality in your own mind but it is INDEED the VERY REALITY of scripture and that of Jesus’s OWN MIND. 

    John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    LU all things are according to the Father’s will and all things are according to the Father’s Spirit, all the powers and wisdom thereof.

    Israel was set free by our Father making Moses a god unto Pharaoh where Moses had our Father’s Spirit upon him to perform our Father’s will. They were set free but it was not lasting.

    All nations of people are set free by our Father making Jesus a god where he received  all of our Father’s Spirit and power dwelling upon him for the reason to perform our Father’s will.

    All things are according to the will of our Father and by the power and wisdom of His Almighty Spirit.

    Jesus is NOT that Spirit nor is he the Lord our God, who is ONE Lord.  Jesus IS the Son of Man returning in the glory of our Father where he will complete the Father’s will by having the Father’s Spirit and powers therein upon him.

    LU, YHWH our heavenly Father doesn’t even have Jesus judge by his own eyes and ears.

    Everything that was determined that needed to be done in order to bring forth our Father’s purpose was CAUSED by the Father.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because HE hath appointed a day, in the which HE will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained whereof HE hath given assurance unto all men, in that HE hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    LU, the God who made the world an all things therein who is Lord of heaven and earth DOES NOT NEED ANYTHING.

    Jesus and all brethren certainly NEED this God though. Jesus needed to be ordained by this God, Jesus needed to be raised from the dead by this God, and Jesus needed to receive the promised Spirit of this God, which is his God and our God, which is the Lord our God who is ONE Lord. 

    April 22, 2020 at 4:00 pm#863267
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You said: the Lord OUR God is ONE Lord

    You say that over and over but where does it say that specifically in the Bible in the original language and what is the original word that was translated as “Lord?” It seems that you will find out that your understanding of this is but sand and that you have been building a sand castle that is about to get washed away.

    Hopeful, LU

    April 22, 2020 at 4:20 pm#863268
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You asked: Falsely teach what exactly according to this specific passage?

    I am pointing out to you that you believe that Jesus is “a” Lord but those verses that I put up call Jesus “the” Lord. Can you call Jesus “the” Lord?

    April 22, 2020 at 9:14 pm#863270
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi

    You

    Hi Berean,

    I have already explained to you that what you say that we are saying is wrong.

    YOU: “all things were created for him, and for him”

    ME: That is not what Gene and I say.

    We say that all things were created DIA –by reason of him, and for him.

     

    Me

    1:16 FOR BY(EN) HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED…

    the beginning of verse 16, there is no “dia” but “en”
    And “en” doesn’t mean “by reason of”

     

    1722
    en
    en
    en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV – eis 1519 and 1537); “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition

     

    ALSO END OF VERSE 17

    kai ta panta en autw sunesthken  =  and by him all things consist.

    IF YOU PUT    ” FOR HIM”  all things consist

    it doesn’t make sense (to me)

     

     

     

     

     

     

    April 23, 2020 at 3:01 am#863271
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….the word “the” , is a definite artical, specific to something, that is correct,  but not to the exclusion of others,  for instance we could say , “the mechanic “,  talking about a paticular person, but not exclusive to all the others, because we know there are many mechanics.

    There are many lords “adoni” but only one “adonia” ( Almighty God) . 

    What do you do with this , “the LORD (ADONAI) said unto my lord (adoni ) sit on my right hand until I  (ADONAI) make your enimies your foot stool”.  King David it appears had a LORD “ALMIGHTY GOD”, and a human ruler over him the lord.  They were not the same person, that should be obvious to anyone who reads it.

    Not to even mention Jesus himself recites the Shama,  “the LORD “our” GOD is “one” LORD”,   Did you notice he said “our” God , that included him also.  

    LU…..Jesus had a GOD, and it certanly was not himself.  Do you actually think he was praying to himself when he prayed ?  When he told us to say in prayer, “our” Father, who is in heaven ,  do you think he wasn’t speaking of himself also?  When Jesus said “my God, my God , have you forsaken me”,  do you actually believe he was talking to himself?

    If you and other here can’t see Jesus as a ordinary flesh born human being who God the Father raised up from the tribe of Juda, from the loins of King David, a man he who was prophesied and  ordained to come,  and put his Anointing Spirit  on him , and told him the words to speak to us,  then you simply are not believing in the true Jesus of scriptures. The Jesus that “all” the prophets prophesied about, then you simply are not believing in the true  Jesus of scriptures . IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    April 23, 2020 at 3:50 am#863273
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Gene and Jodi,

    You quote the Shema incorrectly which is making much of the problem with your understanding. I’m gonna try to help you but I would like you to acknowledge that you have been quoting it incorrectly. It is not your fault since several translations also translate it incorrectly. Here it is:

    Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one

    Here it is in the original language:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 11.36.50 AM

    https://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

    Btw, I believe the one YHWH expresses himself as a father AND a son, two distinct persons. The father is God to his son since the father gave of himself to the son and the son received what the father gave. Nevertheless, the Son is YHWH every bit as much as the Father is YHWH, they are ONE. YHWH is ONE, a unity. The Father is our one true God together (not seperatly) with the Son and their united Spirit. The Father and the Son do nothing of their own accord but can do everything necessary together.

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