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Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

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Jesus Christ Stained Glass Window

Many are those who deny that Jesus Christ was the first to be with God and by extension, that God created all things through him. Obviously Atheists deny this. But many so-called Believers also deny this.

What does the Bible say. Did Jesus exist before all things and did God create all things for him? Scripture is actually very clear on this. It says that God created all things through the Word, the Son, and the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know that these three are not three different persons. Clearly, they are the same person who we know as the Jesus Christ.

  1. The Word. See John 1:3 & 14
  2. The Son. See Hebrews 1:1-2 & Colossians 1: 15-20
  3. Lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 8:6

If God created all things through Jesus Christ the Word, The Son of God, and the Lord, then he must have preceded all things. It seems that the Son is in the unique position between God and Man and God and creation.

John 1:1-3 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made….

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Anyone who teaches that Jesus Christ did not exist with God in the beginning of creation is denying what the scriptures teach. Anyone who denies that God created all things through the son of God is also denying what the scriptures teach.

Viewing 20 posts - 21 through 40 (of 283 total)
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  • May 30, 2021 at 9:12 pm#871060
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean……….It’s interesting how you people see the words ‘Jesus’ written there when it’s not really there,  but then again you people put all kinds of words in our scriptures and even contradict Jesus’ very own written words like when he said this in prayer to God the Father,  “that they might know you “THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”,  AND the scripture that says ,  “but unto us the is “ONE GOD”,  and one mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus Christ “.

    What do you see? Maybe you are blind?

    Colossians 1:15-16
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    May 31, 2021 at 2:40 am#871063
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer….what I see is, you and others here,  Do not understand the Greek word  “dia”  just that simple .  You also don’t believe what God the Father himself said,  in Isaiah. That he by “himself” and “alone” did it, SEEMS YOU DON’T  UNDERSTAND THE WORDS,  “ALONE AND BY MYSELF”.  Neither do you believe what Genesis one says about our creation and who did it, nor do you believe the linage given in scriptures regarding the linage of Jesus that the scriptures give, that he came into his existence through the linage of Abraham, Jesse, and from the loins of King David,  nor do you believe what Moses says when he said that God would bring forth another prophet “from” the children of Israel, “LIKE” HIM.  Not only that but you don’t even believe Jesus’ own words either, where he said clearly he was the root and offspring of King David.  Nor do you believe Jesus said he was “a Son of mankind, saying over 80 times he was a son of man and even would RETURN, as a Son of “MAN” .  Nor do you believe what Jesus said when he ‘clearly’ said “the words i am telling you “ARE “NOT” MY WORDS”, but the WORDS OF “HIM” THAT SENT ME. 

    YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HAVE NEVER PRODUCED A SINGLE  SCRIPTURE , where “Jesus” himself ever said that he was “alive” before he ever came into his actual existence before he was born on this earth.

    The only way you can make the idea of a PREEXISTING  fit, is to distort what the scriptures actually say, and deny other scriptures written in our texts,   just as the rest of the “trinitarians”  do.  Well did Jesus say the whole deception would be about who he was,  that the “many”  would preach him, and deceive people. There is no greater deception then these two things, teaching Jesus is a God, and that he preexisted his berth on this earth. These “LIES” Jesus himself will completely destroy by his very own mouth at his return , 2 this 2.

    So we can say something about you, you are indeed of the “many”,  but definitely not of the “few” . And you will receive what they will receive also, unless you repent.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    June 2, 2021 at 2:00 am#871192
    gadam123
    Participant

    The deity in the Hebrew Bible, the God of Israel, is an indivisible Unity. The first
    four of RaMBaM’s 13 Principles of Faith codify Judaism’s concept of God:
    1. God exists
    2. God is one and unique
    3. God is incorporeal
    4. God is eternal
    The credo of traditional Judaism, the Sh’ma, describes God as being One:
    Deuteronomy 6:4 – Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
    Since the word “One” in this verse is an adjective, it describes the proper noun
    “the Lord”, which rules out the possibility of a “compound unity”. The concept of
    God as an indivisible unity can also be understood from the following passage:
    Isaiah 44:6 – So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts,
    “I am first and I am last, and beside Me there is no God.”
    The declaration by God, “I am the first”, indicates that He has no father. When He
    said, “I am the last”, it means that He has no begotten son. Finally, when God
    proclaimed, “beside me there is no God”, it shows that He does not share His role
    with any other god or entity – He has no “partners”

    He (Yahweh) is the sole-creator of the this universe and there was no helper to him as claimed by Christianity;

    Isaiah 44:

    24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
    who formed you in the womb:
    I am the Lord, who made all things,
    who alone stretched out the heavens,
    who by myself spread out the earth

    Isaiah 45:

    5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
    besides me there is no god.
    I arm you, though you do not know me,
    6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun
    and from the west, that there is no one besides me;
    I am the Lord, and there is no other.
    7 I form light and create darkness,
    I make weal and create woe;
    I the Lord do all these things.
    8 Shower, O heavens, from above,
    and let the skies rain down righteousness;
    let the earth open, that salvation may spring up,
    and let it cause righteousness to sprout up also;
    I the Lord have created it.

    12 I made the earth,
    and created humankind upon it;
    it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
    and I commanded all their host.

    18 For thus says the Lord,
    who created the heavens
    (he is God!),
    who formed the earth and made it
    (he established it;
    he did not create it a chaos,
    he formed it to be inhabited!):
    I am the Lord, and there is no other.

    21 Declare and present your case;
    let them take counsel together!
    Who told this long ago?
    Who declared it of old?
    Was it not I, the Lord?
    There is no other god besides me,
    a righteous God and a Savior;
    there is no one besides me.
    22 Turn to me and be saved,
    all the ends of the earth!
    For I am God, and there is no other.

    So there was no Jesus with God in the Hebrew who could involve in God’s creation. It’s purely the creation of NT writers and Christianity.

    June 6, 2021 at 2:04 pm#871317
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Proclaimer….what I see is, you and others here,  Do not understand the Greek word  “dia”  just that simple .  You also don’t believe what God the Father himself said,  in Isaiah. That he by “himself” and “alone” did it, SEEMS YOU DON’T  UNDERSTAND THE WORDS,  “ALONE AND BY MYSELF”.  Neither do you believe what Genesis one says about our creation and who did it,

    It is said that the Taj Mahal was build by an emperor for his wife.

    Some questions to consider. Did the wife build the Taj Mahal?

    Would the Taj be built if the wife didn’t exist?

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    See that? Jesus is not the creator, God is. Simple.

    Your resistance to what we are saying shows your ignorance. You are arguing against a misconception that you apply to us. You seem confused.

    June 7, 2021 at 2:52 pm#871338
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Me: It is a good argument. But Paul clearly specifies a leading role to Jesus in God’s creation process which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible. I wonder why it was necessary to include Jesus in creation of the world where God alone was the sole author and source and without any agent. Please read Isaiah 45:

    Not so. As pointed out clearly already, God created the universe. He had his reasons for doing so and that was because he begat a son, the firstborn of all creation. God created all things through him and for him.

    Did the wife of an Indian emperor create the Taj Mahal given that he built it for her?

    Saying the the NT teaches Jesus as the creator is tantamount to saying the wife of the emperor was cocreator of the Taj Mahal when in reality, it was a gift.

    June 7, 2021 at 3:19 pm#871339
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi proclaimer,

    Saying the the NT teaches Jesus as the creator is tantamount to saying the wife of the emperor was cocreator of the Taj Mahal when in reality, it was a gift.

    I appreciate your comparison of Taj Mahal with the creation of God. But the problem here, Taj was not made before (the birth) or marriage of Muntaz to Shahjahan, the Indian Emperor. The invention of the idea of Jesus as the centre of God’s creation or creation (gift as mentioned by you) for Jesus is only the imagination of the NT writers which is not supported by the Hebrew Bible. This is what I am repeatedly arguing here on this Forum. Please see my previous post on this quoting verses from Isaiah 44 & 45. If Jesus was the true Messiah the imagination of his role in creation is totally a flaw if we compare it with that of the Hebrew Messiah.

    June 7, 2021 at 4:26 pm#871344
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    You said:

    Jesus is not the creator, God is.

    Do you think that the Son was just a passive bystander during the creation process? That is not what the Father says of the Son. He identifies the Son as YHVH who laid out the foundation of the world and the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands. Heb 1.

    June 13, 2021 at 9:00 am#871423
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I appreciate your comparison of Taj Mahal with the creation of God. But the problem here, Taj was not made before (the birth) or marriage of Muntaz to Shahjahan, the Indian Emperor. The invention of the idea of Jesus as the centre of God’s creation or creation (gift as mentioned by you) for Jesus is only the imagination of the NT writers which is not supported by the Hebrew Bible.

    The point here is your unbelief and not the logistics of a person being the firstborn of all creation that God created everything through and for whose name is The Word of God. So on that point, I will take the victory.

    June 13, 2021 at 3:10 pm#871424
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi proclaimer,

    The point here is your unbelief and not the logistics of a person being the firstborn of all creation that God created everything through and for whose name is The Word of God. So on that point, I will take the victory.

    Yes you may take it as your victory. But there is no question of belief or unbelief in this as we are debating on the validity of these writings. I can believe so many things in my religion and that doesn’t mean I am right. I am arguing that the logics of Jesus the supposed Messiah being involved in God’s creation is not supported by the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the imagination of the NT writers especially the Fourth Gospel stating that “the Word of God “was Jesus in the his preexistence and some how involved in God’s creation. There are many such concepts which were simply imagined by these writers.

    Do you think they (NT writers) also did believe these concepts on Jesus?

    Sadly we don’t have proofs for these new ideas on Hebrew Messiah. He never intended to be involved in God’s creation or to be a divine being as reflected in the NT.

    Please think over.

    June 13, 2021 at 4:04 pm#871425
    gadam123
    Participant

    The Formation of the Book the New Testament

    Like their Jewish predecessors and Jewish contemporaries, early Christians believed that the Hebrew Bible was God’s book, and therefore a book that should cast light on current events and moral conundrums. For Christians, of course, the most important issue was the true import of Jesus and the story of his life, death, and resurrection. Since they believed him to be the messiah (“anointed one”), God’s savior and the harbinger of a new and perfect age, they sought to find mention of him in the Hebrew Bible itself. This is why so much of the story of Jesus in the gospels quotes the Bible.

    This move was not without precedent. The Dead Sea community also believed that the prophets had predicted their movement and their leader, the Teacher of Righteousness, as well as the political events of their time. They go so far as to claim that the prophets did not know what they were saying, but God, the true author of the text, used them to speak of the (to them) distant future.

    Christians, however, had a different set of questions than the Dead Sea sect, and so they found different texts to cite. Any texts that refer to a time of a future deliverance, or the coming of a future king, were fair game. So the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 becomes the suffering Jesus of the gospels. And Luke’s quotation from Isaiah 61 becomes a reference to Jesus’s ministry of healing and reconciliation. Yet in every case, as far as we can tell, the Christian reading comes after the fact. That is, they first believed in Jesus and then tried to find his life in Scripture. They then could shape their telling of stories about his life to fit the scriptures. This process may seem very circular, but given their assumptions — namely, that Jesus is central to God’s plan, that God spoke through prophets who might not understand their own words, and that the Bible was a cryptic puzzle needing solving — this belief in prophecy and fulfillment is not incomprehensible. So Luke can have Jesus say, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your presence!” Jesus saw himself as the deliverer that the prophets had foreseen long before. When his followers drew the same conclusion, they could then retain the ancient Scriptures, transforming them into something new, a Christian Bible.

    This was how the Christian New testament was formed. We all take this as for granted that it was dictated by God verse by verse.

    June 13, 2021 at 5:53 pm#871428
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    Jesus is the One who was to reign on the throne of David

    Psalms 24
    [7] Lift up your head, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    [8] Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
    [9] Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    [10] Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    JESUS is THIS KING OF GLORY

     

    If not, WHO CAN HE BE?

     

     

     

    June 13, 2021 at 11:33 pm#871432
    gadam123
    Participant

    Gadam

    Jesus is the One who was to reign on the throne of David

    Psalms 24
    [7] Lift up your head, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    [8] Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
    [9] Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    [10] Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    JESUS is THIS KING OF GLORY

    This is the problem with Christianity, they want to see Jesus every where in the Hebrew Bible and the same logics were followed by the NT writers. If you see the psalm 24 without any bias, no where it is meant about Jesus in fact it is talking about Yahweh(LORD) who is the King of kings and he is the King of glory. Please see the first tow verses;

    1 The earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it,
    the world, and those who live in it;
    2 for he has founded it on the seas,
    and established it on the rivers.

    The Psalm is about (LORD) Yahweh who is the creator.

    Coming of God and his glory is found in number of texts in the Hebrew Bible.

    June 14, 2021 at 2:11 am#871434
    Berean
    Participant

    Psalm 24 describes in the second part the entry into glory of the Son of God in the heavenly city (after his resurrection)

    JOHN 30:17
    Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
    It is never said of God that he must enter the Heavenly City, because he has never left it. Jesus yes.

    June 22, 2021 at 2:51 am#871577
    gadam123
    Participant

    The two creation accounts that open the book of Genesis, the Priestly and Yahwist, are not the only creation stories found in the Bible. A much older mythic tale is preserved in passages from the Psalms, the book of Job, and the Prophets. In fact, there are remarkably few references in the Bible to the Priestly creation account (which perhaps attests to its late date of composition), while conversely, there are a number of passages that directly reference or allude to this more archaic Near Eastern myth—a myth which describes the creation of the heavens and the earth in terms of the creator deity, in the biblical sources Yahweh, slaying a primeval sea monster, variously represented as Leviathan or Rahab, as the first act of creation. Psalm 74:13-17 is one such example:

    You [Yahweh] divided the sea by your might; you broke the heads of the dragons in the waters. You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. You cut openings for springs and torrents; you dried up ever-flowing streams. Yours is the day, yours is the night; you established the luminaries and the sun. You have fixed all the bounds of the earth; you made summer and winter.

    The language in this psalm subtly portrays an act of creation, especially the last two verses. After the slaying of Leviathan, the psalmist informs us that Yahweh then proceeds to create day and night, the heavenly bodies, and then the order of the seasons (cf. Job 38:4-11). The seven-headed sea serpent Leviathan does not necessarily symbolize the primeval chaotic waters prior to creation, but it is associated with them. More significantly, this particular theme finds parallels in mythological accounts of Israel’s ancient Near Eastern neighbors, where the creation of the cosmos from the slaying of a chaotic sea monster is a common Mesopotamian and Canaanite mythic theme. In the Enuma elish, for example, the sea goddess Tiamat, who is represented as a watery serpent, is slain by the god Marduk and it is from her slain body that the heavens and the earth are created. In the comparable account attributed to the Canaanite god Baal, we find Baal battling with the sea dragon Yum, and Greek mythology preserves the account of Zeus and Typhon. That this same mythic motive infused Israelite tradition and influenced several biblical authors in their depiction of Yahweh’s creative act as the slaying or taming of a primeval sea monster is undeniable, even if it is clear that the biblical authors have also transformed this ancient mythic lore into something new.

     By his power he stilled the sea and by his skill he crushed Rahab, by his wind the heavens were made clear, his hand pierced the fleeing serpent. (Job 26:12-13)

    Like the gods Marduk and Baal, Yahweh is similarly depicted in these scattered biblical accounts creating the heavens and the earth from the slaying of a water serpent, which symbolizes the primordial chaotic waters. Moreover, this mythic theme is also used to present Yahweh’s “battle” with the Sea of Reeds as a victory and recreation. Finally, this mythic tradition gets re-interpreted in both Jewish and Christian eschatological literature. Yahweh’s first act of creation, the slaying of his primordial foe, the chaotic waters, now becomes the act that is also anticipated in the end days, where Yahweh or Christ must re-create the world from the slaying of their primordial foe (see: Is 27:1; Rev 12:3, 13:1, 17:3).

    June 22, 2021 at 10:10 am#871581
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

     YOU: I find much discrepancy than harmony between Hebrew scriptures and NT writings.

    ME: Only because you focus on the carnal side of it and ignore completely the spiritual.

    The fact that you don’t accept that “THE WORD” spoken of God is Jesus’ spirit, the Son of Man, by which spirit God created all, and sustains all.

    Isaiah 55:[1] All you that thirst, come to the waters:

    Rev.21:6………. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely.

    John 4:13 Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 

    14But the water that I will give him,

    shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.

    John7:37 And on the last, and great day of the festivity, Jesus stood and cried, saying: If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. 38He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Isaiah 1…..and you that have no money make haste, buy and eat: come ye, buy wine and milk without money, and without any price. [2] Why do you spend money for that which is not bread, and your labour for that which doth not satisfy you? Hearken diligently to me, and eat that which is good, and your soul shall be delighted in fatness. [3] Incline your ear and come to me: hear and your soul shall live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the faithful mercies of David.

    John6:26Jesus answered them, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed……

    John6:50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

    Isaiah…[4] Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and a master to the Gentiles.

    [5] Behold thou shalt call a nation, which thou knewest not: and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee.

    [6] Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive.

    John6:39 Now, this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise IT up again in the last day. 40And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting,

    and I will raise him up in the last day.

    Adam, When is your last day on earth? obvious when you die!  NO?  If you believe in Jesus,

    Jesus will raise you up alive in your soul.

    Also, do you find HARMONY IN THE ABOVE 

    between Hebrew scriptures and NT writings?

     Isaiah 55:[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

     [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. 

    [10] And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    The above is clear evidence of WHY YOU SEE THE DISCREPANCY!

    [11] So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man

    ascend up where he was before?

    ….but it shall do whatsoever I please and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    Can you see Jesus in the above?

    John6: 63It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing.

    The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 

    64But there are some of you that believe not. 

    John 6:68 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go?

    thou hast the words of eternal life. 

     

    Peace and Love in Jesus.

     

    June 22, 2021 at 8:22 pm#871584
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen Carmel !

    June 23, 2021 at 10:25 am#871594
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gadam,

    YOU: I am arguing that the logics of Jesus the supposed Messiah being involved in God’s creation is not supported by the Hebrew Bible.

    ME: THE ABOVE IS ONLY YOUR POOR CONCLUSION SIMPLY AS YOU ONLY DISCERN THE HEBREW BIBLE FROM ONE PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS CARNAL, AND NOTHING SPIRITUAL. DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE HEBREWS ARE THE PEOPLE SUPPOSED CHOSEN BY GOD, WHO IS SPIRIT.

    I can see, and convinced that

    God in Jesus, could have been born even in China, from a Chinese family, and still be A SON OF DAVID.

    It’s no use that I explain what I mean as you simply say what you said hereunder:

    YOU: It is purely the imagination of the NT writers especially the Fourth Gospel stating that “the Word of God “was Jesus in his preexistence and somehow involved in God’s creation. There are many such concepts that were simply imagined by these writers.

    ME:  Of which I believe that IT IS ONLY YOUR PURE IMAGINATION since you are a carnal-minded believer! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    Do you think they (NT writers) also did believe these concepts on Jesus?

    THERE ARE NO PROOFS REGARDING THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF GOD, THE FACT THAT GOD IS HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN, EXCEPT IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE ONLY PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD, EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    Sadly we don’t have proofs for these new ideas on Hebrew Messiah.

    He never intended to be involved in God’s creation or to be a divine being as reflected in the NT.

    NO ADAM I MUST EMPHATICALLY MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU, NOT HE NEVER INTENDED……BUT

    YOUR PURE IMAGINATION!

    Please think over.

    I, MYSELF CAN SEE JESUS THROUGHOUT THE HEBREW BIBLE.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting;

    and the same are they that give testimony of me. 

    40And you will not come to me that you may have life. 

    This term Adam is only associated with FAITH, not with PROOFS!

    YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU BELIEVE NOT!

    Lucifer’s rebellion was based on this concept, as they could not see God during the probation period, and his personal angels of light, ONE-THIRD OF THE HEAVENLY REALMS,  accepted his corrupted reasoning.

    The fact that we also ARE IN THE SAME SITUATION, SIMPLY AS LUCIFER/SATAN, OUR ORIGINAL SPIRIT, THE LOST SHEEP OF 

    ISRAEL, 

    insisted that since his angels accepted his concept through faith in him, and rejected God, we also likewise must ACCEPT

    JESUS CHRIST!  THE TRUTH and 

    THROUGH FAITH IN HIM, REJECT SATAN’S LIES!

    Matthew 13:10

    And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables? 11Who answered and said to them:

    Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given. 

    12For he that hath, (FAITH) to him shall be given, and he shall abound: but he that hath not, (FAITH)

    from him shall be taken away that also which he hath.

    (IN ORDER TO REMAIN BLIND)

    13Therefore do I speak to them in parables:

    because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    14And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith:

    By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand:

    and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive.

    15For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart,

    and be converted, and I should heal them.

    16But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear. 

    17For, amen, I say to you, many prophets and just men have desired to see the things that you see,

    (LUCIFER THE FIRST ONE) and have not seen them, and to hear the things that you hear and have not heard them.

    Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in parables:

    I will utter propositions from the beginning.

    ADAM, say something bout this prophecy!

    WHERE IS YOUR ISRAEL IN THE ABOVE PROPHECY? ALSO,

    JESUS FULFILLED AT LEAST 44 PROPHECIES!

    I’M AFRAID YOU ONLY SPOKE NOT EVEN A HANDFUL OF THEM!

    YOU BETTER DO SOME THINKING ABOUT HOW YOU NULLIFY ALL THE 44,

    GOOD LUCK!

    I PRAY FOR YOU!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    June 23, 2021 at 3:33 pm#871603
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in parables:
    I will utter propositions from the beginning.
    ADAM, say something bout this prophecy!

    WHERE IS YOUR ISRAEL IN THE ABOVE PROPHECY? ALSO,

    JESUS FULFILLED AT LEAST 44 PROPHECIES!

    I’M AFRAID YOU ONLY SPOKE NOT EVEN A HANDFUL OF THEM!

    YOU BETTER DO SOME THINKING ABOUT HOW YOU NULLIFY ALL THE 44,

    GOOD LUCK!

    Thanks for your wishes to me. The so called 44 fulfillments by Jesus were only the interpretations of the NT writers by taking bits and parts of Hebrew scriptures out of their original context. Here is the interpretation on Ps 78:2;

    The relevant texts from the King James Version (KJV) “Old Testament” and New Testament, and the corresponding Jewish translation for reference purposes, are shown below.

    King James Version Translation of Psalm 78:2

    I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old

    King James Version Translation from the Greek of Matthew 13:34-35

    34. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

    35. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

    Jewish Translation from the Hebrew of Psalm 78:2

    I shall open my mouth with a parable; I shall express riddles from time immemorial.

    The psalm reviews events in Israel’s history, which are parables and riddles of sorts, in that they are object lessons for all times – what the past has to teach present and future generations.  The parable includes such expressions as “… set a table in the desert …” (v. 19), and “… and fire was kindled in Jacob …” (v. 21).  Riddles include, “A man ate the bread of the mighty …” (v. 25), and “And He gave His might into captivity …” (v. 61; alluding to the Ark that was captured by the Philistines).  Some Jewish Sages believe that King David referred to the Torah as “the parable of the Ancient One”:

    1 Samuel 24:13 – As says the proverb of the Ancient One; ‘From the wicked comes forth wickedness,’ and my hand shall not be upon you.

    This is not an attribute or skill that will be unique to the  (mashi’ah).  After all, parables were often utilized in teaching, and there are accounts in the Hebrew Bible of others who spoke in parables, such as  Balaam, Job, King Solomon, Isaiah, and Ezekiel.

    The “fulfillment” text claims that Jesus only addressed the multitudes in parables.  Yet, there are many accounts in the Gospels in which Jesus does not speak in parables.  In the final analysis, however, speaking in parables was a commonly used instructional technique, so that there is nothing special or unique about it.

    Conclusion:  Psalms 78:2 is not a valid “messianic prophecy”.

     

    June 23, 2021 at 6:03 pm#871608
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus spoke on parables. Sometimes he spoke in clearer terms. But usually to those who have ears to hear. While most have ears, only some can hear.

    June 23, 2021 at 8:28 pm#871610
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Other accounts

    If something happened in the past and it is recorded in different ways in different cultures, that usually suggests that something happened, word got around, and the telling of the account changed over time as to be expected.

    Many make this argument against scripture by just assuming that the Bible account is wrong. But that is just bias at work. It is true that you could say the same thing about those who choose the Bible over other accounts. However, scripture is inspired by God for Believers. Other accounts offer no such guarantee. You may find that scripture is carefully copied, but not to the same degree with other accounts.

    Take the Epic of Gilgamesh for example. Some say it is proof that scriptures stole the story from an earlier Mesopotamian civilisation. However, if there was a deluge as recorded in scripture, then you would expect there to be other memories or accounts. And given they are passed down, they may differ. But scripture claims inspiration by God, these other accounts do not.

    We know that if something happened there is a truthful way of telling the story vs a traditional way of telling it. If scripture is inspired by God, then it won’t suffer degradation like the traditions of men do, unless men tamper with it on purpose or make human mistakes which can be detected.

    Here is what the master said about this.

    Mark 7:5-13

    5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

    6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

    “‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    7 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules.’

    8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

    9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

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