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[ringo111]

Wow its Maraculous. I had My display set to only MEssages today ^_^ Now i can see them all YEY!!!!

[ringo111]

Well Nate.

Why have you ignored the points about the phrase in question? and went to just cheap shot tactics, which has so many flaws. lalala

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hey ringo, i persist because you remind me of a younger version of myself, and i would hate to think of anyone giving up on me (even though at times i fully deserve it)… now, you said: Quote   I dont like shakspeare. Really boaring, not to the point, That why I like Jesus. Jesus is straight to the point, rox so much.  Shakspeare just ripped off bible stories mainly, and from what my bro tells me, Most people ignore the main points of shakespears plays then you said: Quote   As for shakspeare, lol, what you think shakespeare didnt write with the greatest story book in mind?? (the bible)?? LoL sif not!! even now, our great entertainers have biblical reference and parrallells throughout theyre material. Does it say that in a study on shakspeare somewhere? Or is it a university thing?? Im sure the university lecturers would hate to think that shakspeare was nothing more but a rearranger of bible stories. Seen as GoD is something they detest with great enthusiasm. in the first quote you imply that your understanding of shakespeare is based on what a friend told you… but in the second quote you claim to know and understand all there is about shakespeare,

Where did I claim that?? Where did i claim i knew all there was to know about shakespeare?? I really would like to know, Lol.
i said great entertainers have bible in mind, even athiests. And especially as had studied in an english school. Points to a significant biblical base. 😛

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and to know more than people who have spent their entire tertiary and post-tertiary years studying shakespeare… can you see how ignorant this sounds?

And what about Jesus, hmm sounds familiar, Not saying I am the Jesus of Shakespeare writings, LoL, But The principle has been set before, and Legitimetly. Notice how I was theorising, I did not say that university lecturers taught such a thing, But if they did, It would be a predictable ignorance.

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well, your arguments against my “phrasiology” based on your understanding of language sounds just as ignorant.

Once again, find me a place in scripture where It calls someones act a form Of a being!! It does not for it is deceptive!!

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you persist in deconstructing my arguments so as to analyse the individual phrases without giving heed to their context…

I know your meaning, I allready spelt it back to you, You mean to group an action, call it Metaphorical, call that metaphore “form” and say that this “Form” takes the “form” of other people, after those people Have Made that act. Which is in itself non-specific and deceptive. An articulate mirage of spaced out delusion.

You see the problem is that you contradict yourself. You say “delusion takes the form of Satan” Then say that delusion is a metaphore, Which is contrary to your statement. Why not say what you mean. That is the problem with your expression of delusion, for delusion is a description of another or many acts, And is also a form of action of an individual, But Delusion is not the form of a person, that is a realm of fantasy.

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in this way you will never grasp my meaning… you need to understand the whole argument (the message), before you can grasp the complexities of individual phrases…

You would like to think its that complex wouldnt you. But no, what you are using is nonspecific Jiberish. And not just a greater understanding as you would like to think it as. As i pointed out above.

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i understand now that this is how you approach the scriptures too – absolute literalism…

So when Jesus says, The kingdom of heaven is like treasure in a field, you dont think its literally, like a field?? That a man finds??? And then sells all everything he has to buy that field?? Jesus then told his disciples to sell everything they had and give to the poor. Now, Very straight forward, and a literal metaphore. Not a spacey remody. Please Find a parable that Jesus does not say that It is an actual “this is like that” statement before he begins, outlining the that he is in fact speaking metaphorically.

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this might work in some instances, but the scriptures themselves laugh at such an approach – jesus spoke in parables so that “seeing they would see and not perceive, and hearing they would hear and not understand”… this means that things aren't as literal as they appear.  when jesus said, “the kingdom of heaven is like a pearl of great price…” he was using a metaphor.  if you then go on to say that finding a pearl of great price “is” finding the kingdom of heaven, people will laugh at you… Quote Not so, I allready showed how, Jesus shows literally, that he was giving a likness, That is very literal, and directive. And not disconnected. but this is exactly how you are interpreting the end-time scriptures… the revelation was given in a vision, and as we can see from the visions of the old testament prophets, these are not (generally) meant to be taken literally. the beast won't “look” like a beast, but a man.  the harlot (the whore of babylon) is not a literal woman, nor the literal city of babylon…

Well, u accuse me of doing exactly what you are doing, disconnecting reality, and making up your own perception.

It clearly states in revelation, when things are Figurative or literal. And many people do not follow the clear direction of the writer of revelation, and want to say to him. “nah, your wrong, I think its articulate and non-specific garbage, I'd rather just walk in the dark, and fall into a pit – yey”  Now that seems to be the way you want to approach revelation, If you do not agree with the graffic, and straight forward literal and chilling events in revelation.

Now when a parable was told, and is told in bible, It is started as a likeness, But as for revelation, he says, “the whole world saw this and that” and then people DID this and that. then other people wanna come along and say, “oh no, what he said happened, doesnt really happen, its a metaphore” Thats insanity, What ?? u wanna say Jesus didnt die on a cross?? that thats a metaphore too?? insane people. When the guy is like, people ar
e beheaded, and blah blah, and physical acts. So obvious, unless you prescribe to insanity, then why bother at all??

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i don't want want to appear as though i know it all, because god knows i don't, but please listen to me when i say that your understanding of language analysis is almost as attrocious your spelling!  i don't care if you disagree with my arguments, but i do care if your disagreement is based on the fact that you haven't bothered to understand what i'm saying – which all your analyses to date have proved to be the case.  it makes you sound ignorant, and discourages people from attempting to discuss things with you… which after all is the whole point of a forum… i hope you will take this criticism in the spirit that it is meant. cheers, nate.

So what, spelling is not the most important, unless you absolutly cannot understand what is written. But as arguments sake, which is interesting, I was sent an email, that the spelling was allot worse than mine. I'll get it.

This was the email.

Try to read this.  If you read fast, you basically miss no word.

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.
The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh an! d I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt

******************************************

So yer, Mr spell perfect man 😛 as you see GoD has equiped us with brains to understand poor spelling quite well. So Your correct spelling is of no real value 😛 nore gives you a higher grounding. Now what was it Jesus said about the wise and learned 😛

l8r.

I also hope you Dont get too offended. jst a lil is good, 😛 Just as long as maybe you think about what been said?

Whatever, 1:30am, hope up looking was a good read l8rz

[ringo111]

Nate

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satan is a liar – this means that the act of lying (verb) has become personified in satan (proper name), making true the former statement.  if this wasn't true, we couldn't call him a “liar” (noun).  but we can – therefore the noun “liar” (or deception) is associated with the proper name (or the person of) “satan”.  therefore deception has taken form as satan –

 Wrong, Therefore, Satan is deceptive! Deception has taken no form! For it is not a thing to form. It is only a description of a persons act. Not taking anyones form. You are using a flawed way of speaking.

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this is not a “literal” form, but metaphorical form.

And then you contradict your previous statment, by saying It is only metephorical?  Please wake up, this is in itself Deceptive speach

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if we can apply this rule to other “forms” (ie. the beast, the antichrist, false prophets, etc),

Now you call these other beings with who choose do do acts, and use the same word “Form” to refer to them. Surely u can see how It is being deceptive and evasive manner of speaking, using form for actual beings, and observations of beings, is very harming for you, or anyone.

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then we can say “deception takes many forms”.

No!! Deception took noones form, they were deceptive and acted in deception, decieving many!! But never did Deception take theyre form.

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it is a basic function of language, which we use in everyday life, and not a philosophical argument.

It is a fallen way that makes words turn into mush, called buerocracy, which means way too much stupid unspecific wording, to complicate issues so everyones confused and doesnt know what to do. Like how they make 1 million page long laws, or conracts for no real purpose, but to make many loopholes so they can manipulate.

I know of a few people who talk like that, like, celebrities, that want to be seen as articulate. But it is just nonspecific rambling. That gives air to insane beliefs.

You see, saying Deception takes Form of A person, Is insane, That means, Someone could say “Deception took my form, I wasnt to blame, It was deception that was to blame , I am inocent” Which is insane to think, Yet that is what you said, by “deception has taken form as satan”

Why then contuniue this wording?? It is not biblical, It is deceptive in itself to say Deception takes form as a person or being.

I so thought the last post was enough, seems as though you have allready made up your mind, so I write for maybe if anyone else reads.

But hoping maybe, not so bad, laterz.

As for shakspeare, lol, what you think shakespeare didnt write with the greatest story book in mind?? (the bible)?? LoL sif not!! even now, our great entertainers have biblical reference and parrallells throughout theyre material. Does it say that in a study on shakspeare somewhere? Or is it a university thing?? Im sure the university lecturers would hate to think that shakspeare was nothing more but a rearranger of bible stories. Seen as GoD is something they detest with great enthusiasm.

[ringo111]

Hey nate, Thnx for bothering to write, and taking the time man.

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i'm not saying that deception is an entity which possesses a form (or another entity), but that the form takes on the quality of deception.  so, the bible says that satan was a liar from the beginning – this means that deception has “taken form” as satan.

You seem to be confused here……

Deception does not take a form, It does not become Satan!!! Never in bible does it suggest such a belief.
It is not an entity made by another things act. It is a discription of somebodies act!!
Why continue to use that manner of speaking??

You have written allot about nouns, and whatever. I sorta got lost in it. I know by the fact that Deception is an observation of somebody's act, and never takes the form of anything, For it is not a substance or anything to then form, or be formed.

If you hold to such a teaching, Then you have been decieved.  You said that

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i am neither trying to imply it or refute it…

This is why I say you seem to be confused. Because then you use the language supporting such a view, which i quoted first in my post. I'll quote a main bit.

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this means that deception has “taken form” as satan.

Like,… the disciples never used that. They didnt ever say that lies took the form of anyone.. like,.. example, Anias and Sahpiara. But they would say, that someone lied. Because, that is correct.
It is not correct biblically to say that Lies took form as Anias and Saphiara.
But correct to say that they lied.

Please think about it?

Oh well, I think Ive said enough.

l8rz man.

ps.

I dont like shakspeare. Really boaring, not to the point, That why I like Jesus. Jesus is straight to the point, rox so much.  Shakspeare just ripped off bible stories mainly, and from what my bro tells me, Most people ignore the main points of shakespears plays. He does extension english 4 unit, Yr 12. He told me about King lear… I think it was.. well, he told me how its mainly a play warning people of the dangers of listening to flattering people. And everyone else is like. Oh no I dont see that at all, And his like. You stupid people, or somthing. People Just see what they want in most cases, or what the demonics want them to see. But yeah thats just another reason why i sit, and want to die, and not think anymore… not have too. Its so crazy life. But then I ask GoD, I Dont want to live GoD, this world too hard, so many things, so many beliefs, GoD, you my only hope at knowing whats right. So Im like, GoD U my strength, Please gimme strength. And its cool, submitting myself, Bowing down to the great GoD the great creator Guy, and asking for mercy cause im just a gentile and not a Jew, I am a Dog as Jesus called us. And as Peter saw in his vision, saw us as scorpians and spiders, GoD made us clean, But left us as such creatures, As wild olive branches. Whatever, Submitting to GoD is real good, No-wonder Jesus did it allot. Cause I feel the strength GoD gives Just for bowing to him, Like the people in Old testiment. Rox so much. Its good. But GoD makes it like a panadol, pain killer, u gotta go bak for more all the time, Like Jesus was. Coolies, I have a friend and heaps of people at his school are christians now, and reading bible in his school. But its not crap christianity, LoL, My friend, people say to him, All christians are F$%##@ except you. LoL, and then he buys them bibles, and tells them, to submit to GoD, and do whats right. Its Coolies. Oh yer, He doesnt drink alchahol, nor break any Laws, He doesnt own any pirated music at all, He got rid of it. So they are seeing him as genuine, not a hypocrite Christian, like they dont say his cool cause he does what they do, Just cause he isnt full of sh^t like most christian. Hmm, just writting, if u interested at all. lol, cool later. Submit to GoD for strength is really coolies though. l8r

[ringo111]

Hey nate ^_^

It is insanity to believe that an act is above the person, that a way of acting, is the origion of an act and not the person or being themselves.

Deception is an act of a being, If the being did not decieve, as in make the act of deception, then deception would not be in existance, as an observation of an act, for it is in itself by definition, The observation of an act. And not by itself an identity.

Deception is a lie. Now, i think you took me as saying that Deception is not an act?? No by no means, when someone lies, they decieve. That is what i ment by “deception is a lie”.

Deception takes no form, Deception is an act of an entity that god has entitled that entity to be concious of lie's and capable of liing. It is a play on words and a deception itself to say “Deception takes many forms”

It is a incorrect use of our language to say that Deception takes Forms. The same as saying violence takes many forms. Buracratical way of thinking, which is insane and besides the point. Why not clearly state that it is the name given to “someone who err's the truth, the name of an act that someone commits”. That definition is best fitting, and not able to be warped into thinking deception is an entity itself that influences other entities.

As for not being decieved by the beast. Very easy, Just Dont get the mark, and dont worship his image. lol. If you dont get the mark then you are beheaded, therefore, there is no beast At this present time. So nothing to worry about.

[ringo111]

Sammo- Kindly read my last post.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2004,02:35)
Luke 11:18
If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

Satan – himself. Both him and self show a person.

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Beelzebub is unquestionably an Ekronite god (2 Kings 1:2). Did Beelzebub exist? Did Beelzebub have any power? Judging from Baal's performance in 1st Kings 18, I'd strongly suggest not. Consider what Isaiah says about the gods of surrounding nations in chapter 37:

When they spoke lies, Jesus rebuiked them, and said. You do not know what you talk about. If beelzabub had not been a member of Satans angels, then Jesus would not have continued and tied in Beelzubub with Satan. The Jews did not, they only said by the prince of Demons(satans angels) , then Jesus expands and says.

Luke 11:18
If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

So there you have it, Jesus refutes your claim that beelzabub is not a demon of Satan, Because Jesus Made that charge himself. The Jews only Charged him with the name of Beelzabub. It was Jesus who egknoledged beelzabub, and said that Satan was the real ruler of beelzabub “how can his Kingdom stand”.

It was not the Jews ignorance, But Jesus' knowledge that reveals that Beezlabub is a demon, Under the rule of Satan.

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Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2004,02:54)
If the following verse is about Satan, then he is an angel.

Ezekiel 28:16
Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

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Nowhere in this passage is Satan mentioned. It's demonstrably speaking of the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12). Sam

I tottally agree, If you read the earlier posts. You will see that I have examined these, and found many inconsistancies.
*Satan according to the myth,

1- was in GoDs presence before he rebelled, the king of tyre was not

2- satan wanted to overthrow GoD, the king of tire only thought he could be seated with the GoDs.

3- satan has many followers and kings dont mock him they dont know about him.(only very few) All nations see the man of tyre, mock him, and has no followers.

If you would bother to read my last post, You will see Jesus said that satan was a murderer from the beggining, and the father (head) of lies. So when cain killed able, Satan was allready around, when he lied, satan was allready around.

[ringo111]

Nate

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this is getting pretty old, but i only just read your post, so… i re-iterate that i did not say to be on guard from the beast, but from deception. as you have said, my exact words were, “we can't stop the beast, but we can make sure we're not deceived.” and deception comes in many forms.  i also re-iterate that we need to be watchful… because deception comes in many forms.  see how easy it is for you to twist my words to mean what you want them to mean?  people do the same with the bible, with news and events, with history.  so i re-iterate deception comes in many forms.  i'm sorry for repeating myself so often, but i want you to understand what i'm saying.  the beast is just one of those forms which deception takes – many will follow the beast, and bow down to the image of the beast, even christians… why? because, while they may have been on guard against the “beast”, they were not on guard against “deception”.  i hope i've made myself clear – i don't want you to misunderstand me.

Say what you mean. I did not read into or expound, It was your own very words. Use the language correctly. It is good to say, No, I didnt mean it like that. What i meant to say was this. Which you have done. But then you try and say that I was reading into it what i wanted??? It would seem to me, as i want people to know the truth, that if i was reading things to say what i wanted them to say, then… I would have read it to agree with my own views. But as it happens, I did not. You should be more carefull what you say, and not try and blame others for your own mistakes.

Deception is a lie, satan has been liing from the beggining, and not Deception being in the form of anyone and anything.
Now i want you to clarify here….

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i did not say to be on guard from the beast, but from deception. but we can make sure we're not deceived.” and deception comes in many forms. the beast is just one of those forms which deception takes – they were not on guard against “deception”.

Do you mean that Deception is a being or entity or some kind of force outside Other beings?? For as it clearly states, It is a beings act that is called deception. And not that deception takes the form of Satan!! and Deception becomes the form of the Beast!!

For if i were an onlooker, that wanted to warp sober thinking, like satan does, It could be derrived from you useing the phrase of this likeness 'Deception comes in many forms' may give air to another deception. Like people thinking that there is a force called deception, and anyone that does what is evil, is not really a person, but they are the force known as deception, who has taken theyre likeness. And so on.

Fully, im not triing to crush you, Im just like.. seeing stuff, and telling you.So peace out bro ^-^ Please mean what you say, take more carefull attention ^_^

[ringo111]

In the beggining, God created adam and eve.

NoT!! adam and Steve.

*hold the applause.(clapping and laughter continues)

*bows, Thankyou , thankyou (blinds close)

A tribute to many preachers. lol, rofl.   Ahhh, its so true.

[ringo111]

Please everyone take warning, Samo, You are doing the work of lies, of Satan, if you believe that satan is not a being in controll of angels, who is in opposition to GoD, and makes all efforts to make most people rebelious against theyre purpose.

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

How absolutely obvious, It is you who has been fooled, and anyone that is not aware of the spiritual bounds. Of coarse none of you as christadelphians would see demons, for satan would not want that revieled, for you are doing his work. And any that would, it would be dismissed, ignored or repressed, and anyone who had seen the truth, would at first tell, then after rejection leave. That is why christadelphians still hold to that belief, much the same as the mainstream believe the trinity is real, except, you can see satan. and it is so obvious.

John 8
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Now. Jesus equates GOD as a father of people. But then says, No you are not a child of GoD. You Are a child of…. SATAN!!! For he was a murderer from… when??? when was he a murderer??? oh, only from the beggining!!! Father of all lies!!! Notice how he says HE. Now, when was the first recorded murder?? the deception of adam and eve. They died there. And even if you would call that not a murder. Then what about immediatly after with cain and able. Satan was before that, according to Jesus Testimony.

Was Jesus GoD??? of coarse not!! But he was called (god with us) Now, the same with satan who is called, (accuser) Now, this(accuser) does more than accuse!!! so it cannot be said that a peson who (accuses) is satan. Passivly without action (accuser) satan entered Judus, not that Judas made an act and then was called (accuser) because of the act. Seccondly, (accuser) kills and lies, and is a father of the people, and satan(accuser) is not the people who lie and murder. Which was bueatifully put by Jesus.

Now. As for the final rebuke, in the john 8. I wonder?? Do you ask god to test your faith?? Do you ask for your perception of reality to be taken away, and to recieve what GoD has for you?? Do you not hear GoD saying to his people, Beware of satan He has been murdering from the beggining, he is the father of lies??? because you do not belong to GoD?? Please ask GoD about that one.

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

Direct possession of a disciple. how obvious. Please wake up. and forsake the delusion, that will make your downfall serious indeed.

Now as for your claim of christadelphians not meeting in secret. They have closed doors meetings. One for everyone, then one closed doors meetings. They advertise that they have closed door meetings, to try and draw in the curious. That is around the newcastle region.

Apart from all that ive written, You mock me!!! With your belief that satan does not have angels, you mock me!!! For i suffered for 9 years of demons tormenting me. Please take note. Please question what youve learned. And in the name of Jesus, as the new testiment says. Jude “the demons shudder”

So many- how about the pigs, The disciples asking Jesus why they could not drive out the demon, The unbelieving Jews that fooled a few demons, but then the demons turned and said, “we know paul(or another disciple), but as for you we do not know) and the demon possesed man beat them.

Stop doing the work of satan. Im sure if you do not, GoD will weigh it heavily against you. For you make men stumble by such an extreme ignorance. I would rather a trinity believer, who accknoledged the destroyer satan, than somone of your belief of satan. For it is extreamly ignorant and repressive, and oppressive to people, who know the truth. You will have many people bound by satan, and you will not be able to see.

It is such a heavy burdon Having demons torment you. And you would tell such people that they are crazy? unwell? a sideffect of a modern life? Such people are conforming to the ignorance of the world that satan will dominate untill the day of purification by fire.

[ringo111]

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I am a Christadelphian – please click here to learn about my faith

Get away while you can sammo, Christadelphians are a seperatist movment. I now see why you cannot see the scriptures, when it flat out says. “cast out Demons!” and “satan and his angels”. Our adversary the devil, roams around like a roaring lion. Not to mention many who witness Demons in real life. That is a christadelphian teaching isnt it?? That Satan does not exist?? You would have had many sermons on it, and within your group, im sure, people will be violently or activly opposed to your questioning. If anyone believe's that satan does not exist, they are doing satans work. For, If you believe satan isnt real, wont make him less able to destroy you. The Satanists are also instructed to tell everyone that satan does not exist. think about it, If people arnt aware, than he can be more explicit, and destructive. Please look at What T8 has written.

For I rang up the christadelphians group a couple of times, and talked to people, and I found theyre beliefs very ignorant. Allthough they egknowledge the trinity is a lie. They also believe Jesus was not in heaven before he was on earth. Which is an obvious lie. For Jesus said that he was before abraham.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

They keep they're main meetings in secret, So it leaves me to wonder what degenerate practises they have?? From what i can see, they preach diss-unity between all believers, and im dont aggree with that at all. For trinity believers, Still believe that Jesus is the christ, They just have additional incorrect teaching.

If i ever do go to a meeting, it will probably be to rebuke them for theyre ignorant belief structure. Which wont go down well. You're most probably better off going to a mainstream church that isnt labeled a cult. Ive sent emails about theyre obvious flaws in belief, But no reply, So sad that another group that teaches lies and seperation of believers is around.

Seems to me, that maybe the christadelphian group was made by some satanists. They are instructed, to take over churches, be ministers and such. so yer, wouldnt suprise, me. Seen as it is a main satanic rule, to make everyone but themselves believe that satan does not exist.

[ringo111]

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Angels cannot “fall”. If they sinned they would die (Romans 6:23), but they are are immortal (Luke 20:36). Therefore angels cannot sin – they are “all” the “ministers of God” (Psalm 103:20-21)

hmm, consider this…. Now when Adam and Eve were told they would surely die!!! did they??? it was a different kind of death, a seperation between them and GoD's best will for theyre lives. The same with the angels that sin. And they do sin.

as you see your quote has nothing to do with angels not having the ability to sin. But It only says praise him, you angels, the ones who obey his word. As for those who do not. There is no mention of them in psalm 103. But in Jude, we find.

Psalm 103
20 Praise the LORD , you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the LORD , all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.

In jude we find. that angels can sin. Allthough, as im looking at the context, It looks as though this is refering mre to prophets and heads of state, who abandoned theyre positions. At a later time id like to look through the old testiment about this.

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

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If Devil and Satan are proprer nouns for an immortal fallen angel, then they should not be used of regular men, women, a righteous angel and even God Inconsistencies in verses used to demonstrate the fall of the devil from heaven. For example, when exactly did this happen? How is the devil back in the presence of God in Job 1 etc?

Good point, that is why i do not believe for at all, tha satan was an angel, I believe he was made for the purpose he exists for today.

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Rather, lust and sin come from within us (James 1:13-15, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9). We're not naturally good – we don't need the help!

Oh, whether or not we dont need the help, is granted, allthough, it is obvious that demons do influence people into blieving and doing actions. As is stated many times in the bible, girl with propheticgift, Jesus telling demons to come out of people, because the demons would say through people, “You Are the Son of GoD!” When it wasnt time for him to proclaim it. The demons possesed man, with the legion inside him. So many accounts.

When bad things happen in the world, it's God who's in control (eg Amos 3:6), not a rival supernatural being.

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Similarly, when bad things happen to us, these are from God too (eg Job 1:21) – but at least we know that God is in control in our lives, and “all things work together for good” in the end (Rom 8:28)

GoD made satan, he knows how to stop him, just like people aswell, GoD allows all bad to happen, Sometimes he steps in and protects people. Ultimatly it is GoD's choice for anything to happen to us. So lets trust in him.

I have seen demons, and know people who see both angels and demons. So, To me there is no question of whether they exist.

[ringo111]

Wish you'd come back mohummad>

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Engulfing the ####### trinity

Many of us who call ourselves christions believe the trinity is a lie. Men, having err'd from the origional belief. For the disciples of Jesus Called him a prophet of GOD, and not GoD himself.

[ringo111]

I personally believe “the book of enoch” to be insane ramblings of a sataniscally influenced person. With direct borrowing of other scriptures. Having borrowed from the origonal book. Or many books. 

For if angels were able to have sex, then people would be having demonic children all the time!!!

Satan is condemed allready, he has nothing to lose!!!

To believe that angels can have sex, is as i see it, is a blaitant lie, and contrary to the teachings. And can only serve as an alienation device that im sure people will use to dehumanize certain people's, or races, and say that they are not in fact human, But born of angels!! and are evil, and should be destroyed!! For they should not be born!!!

No!!! angels cannot have sex! and we will be like the angels who neither marry, nor are given in marrage.

[ringo111]

Itsme

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i do likey your thinking but i don't exactly agree with it all… You see, i still believe that satan is an angel.  it is not explained in scripture but there ARE some angels that are locked up, and there are some angels that are not… Matthew 25 41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Revelation 12 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. The dragon (Satan) who was indeed hurled down to the earth which i still believe he IS an angel, though a fallen one, and he had angels with him. I mean, i would think that would mean that there are angels roaming the earth as well as locked up…right? what do you think about this?

Well, You see, they are satans angels. In otherwords, they are Satans Messangers. They are Not refered to as GoD's angels that rebelled and followed satan. They are purly satans messangers.

There is not even a place in bible anywhere to support that mass amounts of GoD's angels followed satan either. At least I dont think so. Never read it, or heard it, apart from the theory of satan as an angel, with a third of GoD's angels under his controll.(not in bible)

Now…. an angel can be refered to as, someones “There angel doesnt fail to see god”(jesus talking about children, rough quote) and is still gods angel. But i see no evidence that this is true for satans beings that follow him.

As for being locked up, GoD would not say so unless it is done. As for satan, he accuses before GoD. So yer, another reason as to say Satan is not, and has never been an angel of GoD.

I have not read the posts in between, Hmm, maybe i do that now.

[ringo111]

Bright one , or shining one makes more sense, though im sure it would have something more to do with title than appearence. For he was talking about a specific man.

GoD refers to people in such ways when they think themselves like that, there are plenty of others im sure that think they as good as god.

I so do not think it is a duelism at all, I personally think that this duelism talk is extreamly dangerous when GoD is specifically talking to one man. Shure when its a general rule, then of coarse it applies, but for a specific command, or specific rebuke, things can be learned like, “dont think yourself as good to be seated equal to GoD, or GoD will kik your ass” but as for then saying that that man is on par with satan??

#1 neither men were On GoDs side to begin with. No parrellel with the theory of satan as an angel, according to that theory satan was ment to be the head angel of worship, a ruler of a third of the angels. But these kings, were against GoD to begin with, never on GoD's side.

#2 Both of these are destroyed or made low that all men will see them, and gloat over them,(at least happens to one of them) but only we have Jesus seeing satan fall. Satan is a spirit being, kings of earth dont gloat over him.

Notice he did not say, “you were seated.” But that they thought they were seated.

I still dont think satan is an angel at all, cause GoD locks away the angels that sin in chains. Awaiting Judgement.

Satan is not locked up, he roams the earth and accuses in heaven at times.

*the only parellel that does not line up with any other scripture, but only with a theory perpetuated by someone, i dont know who, Guess its just a popular myth past down. Maybe a teaching of the Catholic church. That parrellel with the theory Does not even match. LOL , I was going to say, that it was the fact that Satan wanted to take GoDs thrown, as the theory goes. But In these scriptures, they only wanted equality with GoD, and not to overthrow him. Like the myth of the fall of satan says. So the only parrallel that exists is that satan fell from a position of glory acording to the myth. Thats being ignorant of the fact that these kings had no glory with god to begoin with. So really, there are no real parrellels at all. It just seems like it, if you dont look through it in depth.

So point #3 is

#3 The kings are accused of wanting equality with GoD, to be seated as a GoD. But according to the theory of satans fall from Gods favour, Satan wanted to overthrow GoD and take his thrown.

Well ,, thats what i think.. What about you?? hmm… U like my thinking??

[ringo111]

the satan one attack her. Hmm, i ask for protection, according to GoD's will ^_^

[ringo111]

Ezekiel 28

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

*it is just talking about a king, that is deluded to think he is as good as GoD, or even sits on GoD's thrown. A delusion, not a fact. The same as tyhe last one. It says. “you say to yourself” Not that they are on GoD's thrown, but that they had delusions of grandure.

[ringo111]

Isaiah 14
1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Aliens will join them
and unite with the house of Jacob.
2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And the house of Israel will possess the nations
as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.

3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [1] has ended!
5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down.”

9 The grave [2] below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you-
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones-
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [3]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.

The offspring of the wicked
will never be mentioned again.
21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.

22 “I will rise up against them,”
declares the LORD Almighty.
“I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the LORD .
23 “I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the LORD Almighty.

*It is talking against a specific King who took power over Israel, The man thought he would be like GoD, But GoD had other plans. This is not talking about an angel.

*lines like the following show plainly, that it is talking of a man. Not an angel

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16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,

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20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people.

[ringo111]

Nate you wrote

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i understand your point – its important not to be led astray be rumours or conspiracies.  i agree that there's no point saying “this is the beast,” or “over there”, just as we shouldn't say this of jesus… but there's a different between being tossed to and fro, and being watchful – we can't stop the beast, but we can make sure we're not deceived.

It is what you said, so.. Anyway if you believe the beast is around before two prophets that kill ppl with fire, are killed by a beast. Then that person is decieved. It is a long drawn out process.

As for anti-christs. It says anyone who does not believe Jesus is the Christ, is an anti-christ. It has been a hollywood conception that there is only one or two antichrists. Or maybe something Satan triies to make ppl believe. I remember when I thought I would grow horns, that i was the antichrist. but no, anyone who does not believe is an antichrist.

[ringo111]

Its me, nowhere in scripture is satan refered to as a fallen angel. It has been an imaginary story. We are not told the origon of satan. Just that he is there, and has demons. And will be destroyed, because of his disobediance. It never specifies the initial disobediance, nore does it say he is an angel or ever was one.

In the bible it says, Angels that sin are held in chains awaiting everlasting judgement. Therefore Satan is not an angel. neither are demons.

[Author]

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