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[palal]

A interesting lecture on our debate: http://www.gracechurch.org/media….of_hell

[palal]

“Fear of the the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” Its an interesting angle about “Eternal torment is a lie against God” I find myself gradually rejecting and now accepting the hard parts I don't like in the bible, ie hell and damnation as if I do that, i'm inventing my own religion. John Stott's diatribe started with an emotional appeal which I feel as well, but need to reject as it just does not stack up, the bible tells me how it is and it's a dangerous thing to try and make it ben to my views. I do have a phone, but find it difficult talking, i'm on facebook and can message chat, im under [email protected]

[palal]

Yes, the whole of Gods word is counsel, but scriptures about a particular subject do not neutralise each other which your position on the “eternal destruction” is doing, the other scriptures talk about eternal fires and the wicked being destroyed in this fire, the Thessalonians adds that is “eternal destruction” destruction that goes on for eternity. Is this just and fair? It does not really matter what our human feelings are on the subject. The question seems to be weather we want to accept it's Gods view. We are “monsters of iniquity” as the Puritans say and don't understand the how bad the consequence of sin of our sin is.

[palal]

Did you listen to it? Essentially your saying the scripture does not mean what is says. It's clear what it says, I think we are trying to use less clear scriptures so try and change is clear meaning. Also, is religion all a bad thing? i'm off to work, so cant reply till after 2pm

[palal]

Have a listen to this , this is what finally convinced me of the reality of eternity: http://media.shepherdsfellowship.org/2012….019.mp3
http://www.gracechurch.org/media/6776/hell_under_fire/

[palal]

it's a simple question we return to, why did the HS put the words “eternal destruction” together if it is not “ongoing destruction for eternity” ? Why does it say what it says?

[palal]

there are rules to interpretation. 1.what does it say. 2.who was it said to 3. what was going on. 4. are there any scriptures about the same subject. also clear interprets unclear, is it meant to be clear?. so, going from there, with all the scriptures we have included, we can see from them that the sinners and saints are all raised for judgment and all have glorified bodies. the scriptures we have I wrote this Thursday on cell phone: quoted all talk about fire and burning and destruction. the anomaly seems too be the Thessiloians one says “eternal destruction” and reveals the destruction continues for eternity just as the saints are eternally alive. the problem is twofold, it says both states are eternal. so saying destruction is not an eternal state does not fit as it would say something different? I think the most telling points are the clarity of the chosen words by generations of translators, it's not unclear in original greek, also this anilationism is only recent theology opinion. I wrote all this on a cell phone!

[palal]

Ill write some more later as off to work. I know enough about greek to know I don't know much. But the one thing I have learnt is that words have different meanings depending on their combinations. It's sort of like know and no. Jst because the word eon is used elsware does not mean it means the same things. Also, the OT scriptures were originally written in hebrew so your working on the greek translations of ther OT? I think the other thing to ask is why bible translators continue to say it's eternal destruction if it does not actually say that, I gather like me, you cant read hebrew and greek or know the grammar rules of 1st century greek, if thats the case, we cant really base our debate from them. Keeping that in mind, I will stick to English translations. I'll do some checking:) be blessed!!!

[palal]

You can say it makes no sense, but again, the words show the fire burns for ever and the destruction continues forever. It's crystal clear if you think about it and look at strickly what the words mean individually and what they mean together. The Holy Spirit put them together, I agree that they doeas seem to make no sence from our point, but God used thosed words and He does not make mistakes. It's interesting, this subject has been talked about befor, this Theology trying to avoid this is called Annihilationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism) Eternal destruction is eternal punishment, being destroyed for ever. The problem we have is it does not seem fair or just or even good english

[palal]

I thought the AKV had obvious translation errors?

[palal]

These are all quotes about destruction, in their context that all indicate a start and end to the destruction. Though Jude provides detail about this fire the it burns for eternity “eternal filre” A question we would never think to ask is what kind of destruction is it or how long? I would have thought destruction was destruction and it comes quickly. It is interesting that they suffer the punishment of “Eternal Fire” why is the fire eternal if the wicked are annihilated? That seems confirm that it's “eternal destruction” as the Fire is eternal as well. it's a horrible thought!

[palal]

Well said, I am just a stunned bunny at the moment. 3 years ago I had this thing called “Latter Rain” preached at me. It was quite cool and exciting, I like to read, so I know most of the various endtime scenarios enough to know they all have good and bad points, so the Latter Rain stuff was new to me. Anyway, I thought I would study it, the upshot was I found all this weird stuff such a Dominionism (church takes over world then JC can come back) Joels Army, the Elija generation and on it goes. They have the common thread that it's all based on allegorical interpretation of scripture, essentialy, nothing means what it first says and Hermeneutics is out the window ie context context context. At the end of it all I have found that most of my hereos are infact the flast teachers Peter and Jude warned us about and alot of my theology in actual fact has no biblical foundation! Incredibly painful, it's been like some one dear has died: denial…anger…grief and now, sad acceptance. Most of the so called anointed teachers like William Brannam, Rick Joyner, Bill Johnson etc turn out to be denyiers of Jesus as a man, the trinity etc and the most shocking one: Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross, he needed to become on with satan and be tourtered in hell for 3 days!!! I herard this preached a while back and only 3 of us picked it up!!!!! What shocking is it's not deep stuff, it's simple milk ie, Jesus said to the criminal “today you will be with me in paradise” it's not rocket science!! Anyway, i look forward to your thoughts:)

[palal]

Ill write more tomorro, but quickly, time is reltive, swiftly to God may not be to us, (you know 1000yrs as 1day to the LORD) Delivering to satan, we're talking about the context in Thessilonians where the HS put “eternal and destruction together” As to torture, God is sovereign and just so people get their penalty, Why do bad things happen to good people? the reason is there are no good people. We are “monsters of iniquity” as Spurgon coined. We are terrible sinners saved by grace. I think your trying to find a way to have “eternal destruction” not mean what it obviously it says. it does not matter what other scripture says on destruction of heavens and earth, as the context used is quite clear. The HS said it that way to describe the afterlife of the wicked, it's a scary thought. Any way, be blessed and sleep well:)

[palal]

Jesus did say that, and it's clarified even further in that it's eternal. As for testing things, Do you think there comes a point where we stop testing as the test has produced a result? I read last week that some things are clear in the bible and usually the ones that aren't don't matter. In our case, it must end with what is written, the other scriptures are helpful, but the clear ones have priority. I am seeing alot lately christians wanting more leading to stuff like the book “Jesus Calling” etc which has ideas that contradict the bible, weird 1 Corinthians 4:6 ►New International Version (©2011)
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

[palal]

Destroy =ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire 2. To tear down or break up; demolish.3. To do away with; put an end to. My understanding is it has a start point and an end point. Thats quite clear. The scary part is it is linked with “eternal” giving us a dichotomy, how can destruction with beginning end be eternal. Occums razor applies, the is no hidden meaning, it means what it says “eternal destruction” Is there a reason why cant you accept it?

[palal]

ahhh nope, it's eternal destruction not eternal death, destruction is a process while death is a state. We are stuck with it, thats what God says and as said the only way out is contradict the bible it's self. There are rules to understanding the bible.:(

[palal]

WHat I find most interesting, ansd a clue to it's truth is the deliberate use of destruction, which is a word indicating start with an end with a word meaning time with no end. You cant be destroyed for ever. Looking to other scripture to change the clear meaning is not hermeneutical . Clear scripture trumps un clear, the ones in Peter say destruction with fire, what kind? Thessalonians clarifies that it's eternal destruction.

[palal]

COntext context context, those scriptures say every thing and the wicked are destroyed, the Thessalonians is a specific word, more detail on the destruction of the wicked, this detail adds that the destruction is “Eternal Destruction” and means wicked continuly destroyed for eturnity. So you can not say it's incorrect unless you choose to say its a mistake in the bible. This is what Spurgon called the Downgrade” which has it's first symptom being the questioning of the reliability of the bible. So in the end, we are stuck, we either accept what it says, or we say the bible is incorrect. Sadly, there is nothing to read between the lines, I wish there was, but if I do, i'm making the bible subject to my like and dislikes. grrrr it does make me sad and motovated to pray and witness!

[palal]

Your trying to mix individual accountability with the destruction of heaves and earth. COme on, your seriously believe that that seperat scriptures about different things that have the word destruction means the “eternal destruction” is wrong in the Thessalonians one??  It's a conspiracy theory, that all translators are biased is not really a robust explanation or answer to my fundamental question, translator biasis always goes the liberal way, no hell, no judgment etc. As for the two quotes, the english language is rapidly changing, so taking quotes from translations 100+ years old is fraut with difficulties. Rick Warren is notorious for using many translations untill he find one that says what he wants. So, back to my question, where are the scriptures to support your position? The ones that say specifically that sinners are do not go to “eternal Destruction” Providing scriptures abput this present creation as an answer does not meet the grade, Ill add another, is the bible the inerrant word of God?

[palal]

Getting back to the same question, where are the scriptures to support your position? Again, the problem we have is it say's “Eternal Destruction” Another point is, if it's incorrect, why do all bible translations use the same words? (as far as I can find some use everlating) here's a link http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm I still dont like it though) but as I have said we are stuck with it if we are to have an consistent interpretation. ie hermeneutics

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