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[Oneway]

The problem does not come from saying Jesus is Lord; but from saying he is God. In John 13:13-16 Jesus himself claims to be both master and Lord but goes on to teach that the servant is not greater than his lord and the one sent is not greater than the one who was sent.

There is no agreement between Trinitarian teachers on even what the term means. DavidL uses Jesus saying Before Abraham was I AM to teach that Jesus is God but that would be teaching that Jesus is Jehovah which would not mean three persons who make up one God but One God who makes up three persons which is modalism.

One must also ask to whom does one pray and to whom is our worship given. Jesus himself taught in John 16:23-28 that after his death and resurrection we would no longer ask him anything but rather would ask the Father in the name of Jesus. In Revelation 19:10 John was told to worship God for the testimony of Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father and we worship the Father. Belief in a separate Father and Son and Holy Ghost does not make one a Trinitarian; but a believer in scripture. Believing they are all One in substance makes one a Trinitarian.

So the answer to the question what Christian opposes that Jesus is the Son of God would be that in one way none do. The opposition comes from those who are not satisfied with what is in the scripture and want to make more of it than is there. They will claim heresy on the part of one who simply believes Jesus is the Son of God and Lord of our lives and do not make the leap to him also being God. In my opinion; what is expressly written in scripture should be enough.

[Oneway]

T8
I apply my quote to everything in the Bible and I see no problem applying it to the scripture you reference. If there was a misunderstanding as to what I believe; I believe there is One God who is the Father and one Lord who is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. While individual verses pulled out of context may make one consider the Trinity or even the Oneness doctrines; looking at all of the scripture as one book which explains itself can only lead to a belief in one true God who has a son named Jesus. Any other doctrine can only be held if scripture is twisted or “explained” in ways it was not written.

[Oneway]

I sometimes wonder why people cannot just read the Bible and accept it. I am constantly amazed at how seldom people just read the Bible and say they accept it. It is really quite simple if one will just do that but most will say “I know it says that, but here is what it really means.” In most cases; everything after ‘this is what is really means’ is just wrong. If God is God I have to assume He had the ability to have recorded in the Bible what He wanted us to believe without having to twist things and look so hard for them. If God wanted us to think of Him and Jesus as being equal; I have to wonder why he allowed the words of Jesus when he said My Father is greater than I. If the Holy Spirit is not just the Spirit of God and is, in fact a third person; I have to wonder why it is not written that way. If Jesus is God and is equal to the Father I have to ask why did he pray at all much less to say in prayer that eternal life was to know the One true God and also to know Jesus. It would have been so easy when Jesus asked the disciples who he was and Peter answered that he was the Christ the Son of the living God, for Jesus to correct him and teach them he was, in fact, God. None of this happened. I never want to minimize the work of Jesus; but neither would I ever want to elevate him past the role of the Father who is the only true God. If we do that we are worshiping the Creation more than the Creator. If we will just read what it says and not add to or take away we will get the truth.

[Oneway]

I have been following this debate concerning the doctrine of the Trinity for many years; and this discussion has included most, if not all, of the arguments I have heard over the years. The argument usually seems to not be about a Trinity; but rather about Jesus and usually finds itself centered around just a few verses; but always coming home and settling around John 1:1 where we find in the KJV the words “and the Word was God.”

Much has been made about the interpretation used by the translators of the King James Authorized Version, and one could well use that as an argument as both the Wycliff translation(1395) and the Coverdale translation(1535) says that “God was that Word”. However; for the sake of this discussion let’s assume that the KJV is the best translation available for at least this verse. From this wording; trinitatians take that the Word being discussed is Jesus. We know from verse 14 of the same chapter in John that thousands of years after the creation of the heavens and the earth that the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Since thousands of years after what is being discussed by John in verse 1 that spoken word of God was made flesh; the believers of this doctrine assume John must have been referring to Jesus when he spoke of the Word. Let’s look at the scripture and see if that is the case.

Let me begin with a totally human discussion that took place between two individuals who were discussing the literary word entitled “The Raven”. As they began their discussion neither could remember who actually wrote “The Raven”, but one suddenly remembered and said “The Raven is Poe”. Neither of them actually believed that the Raven was the embodiment of Poe; but both rightly understood that Poe was the author or creator of “The Raven”. Without being too simplistic; John could easily be saying here that The Father or God was the author or creator of His own word or words.

I find it interesting to note that as far as I can tell only two verses in the KJV begin with the words “in the beginning”. One of John 1:1 and the other is Genesis 1:1 where we read; “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth”. It goes on over the next little bit to explain just how God made the heaven and the earth and we see the following verses telling of it:

1:3 “And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.
1:6 “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:9 “And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let dry land appear.

We can go on; but one can see plainly that God said, or spoke those things into existence using His Words. We see this acknowledged by Paul in his letter to the Romans in the 4th chapter and the 17th verse where we read in the KJV; “As it is writtne, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as thought they were.” God; with the words which proceeded from Hos mouth called those things which were not as though they were, and they became. God did this. He used His Words and those words were His. There is a lot more to God than His words; but it was through or by His own words that He chose to create the heaven and the earth.

If we understand how God created things we can now go back to John 1. Every English translation of the bible up until the King James Version treats verse 3 differently. King James; assuming that Jesus is already the Word reads that all things are made by Him. Every other early translation says all things were made by “it”. These early translations are not being derogatory towards Jesus, but are simply acknowledging that the word of God was what He used to create. Further into John in 8:42 we see Jesus himself saying he proceeded forth and came from God. I see significance in the way he said that. God’s words proceeded from His mouth to create. We read in Matthew 4:4; “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” The heaven and the earth were created by the words that proceedeth from the mouth of God. We live by the words which proceed from the mouth of God; and Jesus says he proceeded forth and came from the father. Most of us realize that because of the death of Jesus we were reconciled to the Father and because of that we live through his life (Romans 5:10)
So the first 4 verses of the book of John call to our memory the creation of the heaven and the earth and remind us it was God; through His own Word, who was the creator. To the mind of John; this first creation was very important for us to remember so we can try to understand the change that was coming. We see this again with his emphasis in his 3rd chapter in recalling how man was first born so man can realize his need for a spiritual birth. In his first chapter John is just being John. John 1 covers a lot of time and the first 5 verses are referring to creation. The next few verses introduce John the Baptist and outlines briefly that fact that his ministry was simply to foretell what and who was to come. And then thousands of years after creation we come to the event told in verse 14. The Word of God-that spoken and creative Word of God was made flesh and dwelt among us. I find great significance in the wording here. Note that unlike what most of us quote and what many modern translations say; this scripture does not say “the word became flesh”. Rather is says “and the Word was made flesh”. If it “became” flesh one might well imagine that it just sort of happened; but the spoken Word of God was “made” flesh. This would suppose that someone or at least something made it become flesh.
Many are under the belief that Jesus has always been in heaven with the Father and was sent to the earth at the appropriate time to do his thing and then go back to be with his Father; but we do not actually see this explicitly taught anywhere in the scripture. Instead we see the spoken word of God that in John 1:14 is made flesh. Could this “making” the word flesh be the fulfillment of the prophecy given in Psalms 2:7 which reads; “I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” I think it could be but do not have enough scripture to prove it. After this time we called the word made flesh Jesus and began to call the scripture the Word of God; but the scripture itself continues to call him the Word of God. At the end of it all, as Jesus is coming back for the final battle we read in Revelation 19 we see two different names given and most of us consider them both to be Jesus. In Revelation 19:13 we read; “and his name is called the Word of God.” in verse 16 we see; “And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Most of us think that is also his name; but notice verse 13 says HIS name while verse 16 says A name. I see this in the same way I see any soldier going of to war. A soldier wears a uniform that designates who he is a soldier for and also will have a name tag in most cases. Jesus’ name tag say the Word of God and who he represent is the King of Kings.
To me; combined with all the other scripture in the Bible it seems clear and plain that John is recounting in verse 1 the creation of the heaven and the earth and is simply telling that God created everything by calling those things that are not as though they are. He is not referring to Jesus at all in verse 1. Thousands of years later in verse 14 that same word is made to be flesh.

[Oneway]

I appreciate your reply to my comment. I would like to add; if I may, my belief that this is a site used for the glory of God and for the encouragement of fellow believers. I have, over the years, found the traditional teachings to not be what I once thought they were. Some of the studies have taken me to places where I thought no one else had gone. To read someone else who believes in the absolute simplicity of a gospel message without the entanglements of man’s traditions is truly refreshing. To know I am not alone in my beliefs about who God is and who the Son is as well as other topics found here like the truth about hell is an encouragement. God is truly pouring out His Spirit today to those whose eyes are open and whose ears are eager to hear the truth. I have read on this site for over a year but made no comments until today. I hope to be more active in the future; but wanted to thank you for what you are doing here.

I have had many conversations over the years from people so willing to tell me how closed minded I am for not being convinced they are right and who condemn me to hell or even feel sorry for me for my heresies. I just wanted to tell you I believe in what you are doing and thank you.

[Oneway]

I would like to add to this debate if I may. I don’t want to be too lengthy; but I see here two men who believe they are being taught by revelation who have two opposing views. Both cannot be revealed by the Spirit of God. I grew up in the US in a Southern Baptist church and was a staunch believer in the doctrine of the Trinity. I taught it and preached it and never had any reason to doubt it; not even after moving away from Baptist teachings and into the full gospel as taught in the Scripture. I then found myself in a United Pentecostal Church who taught something altogether different. They taught that Jesus was all there was. He sometimes revealed Himself as Father, and sometimes as Son, and other times as Holy Spirit; but was really all Jesus. They make a lot out of Matthew 28 where we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. They say the singular name of all three is Jesus.

As you can imagine; this did not sit well with a staunch Trinitarian. However; I knew these people to be sincere and were not people who would lead me astray on purpose; so I set out to prove the doctrine of the Trinity by my Scripture. I determined to NOT use any inferences; but to limit myself to what is expressly written in the scripture. What I found changed my belief system entirely.

When I began I was having a hard time finding scripture that truly backed up the doctrine of the Trinity. I had always heard of God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit but was astounded to discover that only God the Father is found written that way in scripture. One can find the Son of God many times; but God the Son not once. I went to Trinitarian scholars for help and found that even professors at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary admitted that the doctrine is not expressly found in the scripture.

I found that the scriptures most often used by both the Trinitarians and the Jesus name only people were the same scripture. They just looked at them in a different light. Again I was seeing honest and sincere individuals who were using the same scripture and coming up with altogether different conclusions. I began to see that if one read the Bible just as it is with no inferences at all or with no previous teaching; they would likely come up with the fact that there is only One God and He is the Father. In ways we do not understand He had a Son who was Jesus. God is also a Spirit and that Spirit is Holy-hence a Holy Spirit. I understand some will call that simplistic and wonder at my lack of understanding; but I honestly see no problem with believing that way.

However; I did want to examine some of the scripture used to back up the various doctrine. Everyone uses the words of Jesus as he says; “I and my Father are one.” The Jesus name folks say case closed. Jesus said they were one. The Trinitarians say case closed. The two; along with the Holy Spirit are One. No one seems to look at the words of Jesus in John 17:22 where Jesus in his prayer says; “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.” If Jesus is asking that we be one even as he is one; then are we to believe that we too are God. Of course no one believes that. Paul, in writing about Jesus and Apollos and himself said the he who watered and he who planted were one. Does anyone think Paul and Apollos are the same person. The same logic is not being given to all of the scripture. Various sides take various verses and make them into something they are not.

John 1:1 which says, and the Word was God is used again as proof from all sides; however a clean translation would read and God was the Word. However; even if we leave it as it is; it is referring to Creation where God the Father spoke everything into existence using words. The words were God’s words; but there is a lot more to God than His words. In John 1 John is referring to creation and to the spoken word of God. It is not until the 14th verse that the Word is made flesh and dwells among us. John 8:42 are more words of Jesus explaining this very thought further as he says; “for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself; but he sent me.” He goes on in verse 43 to say the reason he is not understood is because people will not hear his words.

We read in scripture that Jesus was tempted in all points as are we but without sin. Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness but also in all points as are we. This is not inferred, it is scripture. The book of James teaches that when we are tempted we should not say we are tempted of God; because God cannot be tempted with evil and neither does he tempt any man. All have reasons why this is not the case; but it is what the scripture explicitly says. The Jesus name folks say Jesus was the fleshly God so he could be tempted; but the scripture does not say this. The trinitarians have their own explanation; but I have to ask what is wrong with just believing what it expressly written. If God cannot be tempted and Jesus was tempted; how, sticking just to scripture, can he be God?

I know Thomas said my Lord and my God and I also know the correct translation is the Lord of me and the God of me; and I know the translated word can be used in many ways; but maybe Thomas was just saying how he felt. Because Thomas thought Jesus was God does not make it so anymore than the angels who followed Lucifer made him God.

I have to ask what is so wrong with the words of Paul recorded in 1 Corinthians 8:6 which read; “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” What changes in our belief if we follow this passage word for word? Jesus is still the Son of God. It is through him that we find the Father. It is through him we are reconciled to God and it is through his life we are saved. If we follow the true teaching of the scripture then the ministry of Jesus is one which leads us to the Father who is our God and Jesus’ God according to scripture. If we believe any other way we run the danger of thinking Jesus is all we need and we neglect or discount the Father.

And 1 Corinthians 15:28 is very clear if we believe it without explanation. It read as follows; “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

For me; this study took years. One of the flaws of most studies are people who want all the answers right now. Sometimes the question is what drives us into further study. We should desire the truth no matter what that truth is and a quick study does not always lead to truth; but a quick study can back up a preconceived doctrine.

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