Berean: IN SUMMARY
BEFORE ABRAHAM COMES INTO EXISTENCE,

JESUS SAYS:

I AM

Berean, let’s switch “I AM” (which you think God’s name means) with God’s actual name as best we know it, “YHVH”.

So in your understanding, Jesus said, “Before Abraham existed, YHVH!”  What would that even mean?

“Before Abraham was, God!”  See what I mean?  In order for…[Read more]

Carmel: Mike your reasoning above makes PERFECT SENSE,

ONLY WHEN IT IS A REFERENCE TO HUMAN BEINGS. 

HOW ON EARTH

YOU PUT GOD, CREATOR, IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS, HIS CREATURES…

No I don’t, nor have I done that.  Jesus is the Word (spokesman) OF God, just as Kal Hatze was the Word (spokesman) OF the King of Abyssinia.

You need to le…[Read more]

Mike:  Likewise, God alone created you, but He did that THROUGH your parents.

Ed:  If he did it “through” our parents, then he DIDN’T do it alone.

Your logic fails!

Yet the morning stars sang and the sons of God shouted for joy when God – alone and all by himself – laid the foundations of the earth.  And God said, “Let US make man…”…[Read more]

Ed: Hi Mike,

Your wording suggests Jesus helped in creation,
which goes against the verse you just cited.

Could it not instead simply be by Jesus crucifixion, that
that is how God created the heavens and Earth “through” Jesus?
Then that would not violate God creating the heaven and earth “ALONE”

BUT if Jesus helped in ANY manor as you appear…

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Berean: The Father speaking to the Son

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands…

Berean, where can I read that the Father said these words to the Son?  Why would the Father (Jesus’ own God) call Jesus his Lord?  And why would the Father tell us that He alone created al…[Read more]

Gene:  …they believe Jesus is “himself” God’s word…

Gene, they don’t believe Jesus is a literal word that God spoke.  See if you can follow this…

The King of Abyssinia had a spokesman called “Kal Hatze” – which means “the word of the king”.  This spokesman had “The Word of the King” as one of his NAMES.  He wasn’t a literal word, but he wa…[Read more]

Gene:  Maybe you not following what theses people are saying, they are not saying Jesus speaks God words to us , what they are saying is that The man Jesus “IS” “himself” God’s word. As I have said that’s like saying Peter is a “actual” rock, like you would find at a rock query some where. 

I can’t comment on what somebody else may have said.  I…[Read more]

Jodi: As said, ALL OF SCRIPTURE must agree. 

So let’s talk about, 1 Cor 15: 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Don’t forget this one…

John 3:5-8

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless…

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Jodi: Mike, the son of Jesse did not create the heavens and the earth, YHVH did…

I’ve never claimed that anyone other than Jehovah created the heavens and the earth.  Scripture doesn’t ever teach that Jesus created these things.  What scripture teaches is that God alone created them, and that He did that THROUGH His firstborn son.

Likewise, G…[Read more]

Jodi:  58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

How confused are they? Jesus didn’t say he saw Abraham, he said Abraham saw him.

Actually, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day, ie: his earthly coming where he’d save Abraham’s descendants by offering himself as a sacrificial lamb to atone for thei…[Read more]

Jodi: Mike,

ALL of scripture must agree, I do not see that at all with your doctrine, nor with the doctrine of others. If you don’t apply clear given truths to certain passages you are going to understand them incorrectly, which is exactly what you and others do with verse 58 of John 8.

Hi Jodi, I’m willing to invest some serious time and effo…[Read more]

Gene:  Mike….I am not arguing that a name cannot be applied to someone or anything for that matter,  because of some kind of “atribute ”…  Jesus spoke to us the words of God,  so he certanly could be “called”,  or sur-named the word of God , I have no problem with that. 

Okay Gene, so then just admit that to Carmel, instead of trying to play…[Read more]

Carmel: she called the name of her son Benoni, (is he BENONI?)

You can’t argue Carmel’s point here, Gene.  I’ll add some more scriptures to his point…

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were fulfilled to circumcise the child, then his name was called
Jesus, having been so called by the messenger before his being conceived…

Genesis 38:29 And…

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Gene:  …so Jesus being fustrated with them,  said  that he was more important  then Abraham was , by saying to them that he was before or more “important ” to them then Abraham.

It is true that saying you are “before” another can be a way of giving yourself more importance than them.  But look at the context, Gene…

John 8

57 “You are not ye…

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Gene:  Mike….I completely agree with your last post to Proclaimer.  But now back to your post to me,  your are right the subject matter did not change until version 18,  but verse is still talking about God and his word, not God and  Jesus being his word.

Gene, we agree that the subject remains the same until verse 18.  And that means the subject…[Read more]

nayasnana: He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It mu…

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nayasnana: It is important to note that it was “Christian teachers” who attached the idea of a “divine person” to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially.

Welcome, nayasnana!

This one makes it hard to deny that in some ca…[Read more]

Jodi,

I was also wondering if you accept my “children of Abraham from stones” analogy.  You didn’t try to rebut it, so I assume you acknowledge it as legit.  If God foretold that He would make a son for Abraham out of a stone, and then did so, no amount of scriptures talking about how this son would be/is/was a human son of Abraham would change t…

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Jodi: That’s just it though, he doesn’t exist as a spirit entity in heaven Mike, he sits at YHVH’s right hand as a Son of Man, and he is returning to earth as a Son of Man, and when he returns to earth he is going to sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit, which makes him a spir…

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Proclaimer:  But you need honest people in the process to make that happen.

Unfortunately there are people here who are not honest.

They cannot answer a simple yes or no.

Thus, their answers must be coming from the Evil One.

Please stop these personal attacks.