Good night Istari…there in the UK it is the middle of the night. Big yawn! Thanks for staying up and the 'sharpening' that went with it. I will try to answer the rest of your questions tonight.

Istari,I forgot to answer this part in that last post:Quote (2) All the other creatures in Heaven are ALSO SPIRITS – Who Begot them?The other creatures in heaven were not begotten, they were created from new substance…not eternal substance. The Father created them through the Son.Quote Was not the Creed force fitted and ratified by the Romans -…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:51)Kathi,you say “and then was begotten…possibly begotten by the Father's word, not necessarily through some labor and delivery process.”but earlier you said “I don't believe that God willed a Son into existence with His thoughts.”Word and thought are the same to God (God does not think what he does not say -…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:37)Kathi,What Scripture verse says that Jesus has the EXACT NATURE as his Father?An d what is “ETERNAL NATURE” (Eternal is a State – Nature is Feature/Characteristic. For instance: You can't 'SEE' that the Nature of that someone is ETERNAL)Istari,Heb 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:30)Kathi,The Creed is MANMADE… And you know that it has been messed around with over time …How can they be “Co-Eternal” if one was “BEGOTTEN”.Kathi, explain to me what “BEGOTTEN” means in this context, to you.And explain how Jesus is “ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN” (What on earth or in Heaven does that means anyway…!)…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:01)kathi,I know people say “Mary gave birth to THE SON OF GOD” – is this a corruption of your idea or is your idea a corruption of their idea?Sonship in Spiritual terms is nothing to do with PROCREATION – because Spirits do not Procreate.Spirits CREATE – but do not PROCREATE – so Sonship is not about a personal…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,19:56)Kathi,Even the Trinitarians (as exampled by WJ and Trinis are by far the largest group of “Eternal Son” believers) do not believe that Jesus was Begotten before time.Until i heard you saying what you are trying to say hear i'd never (thought provokingly) heard of this idea…Kathi, unless i have been placing my…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,16:28)Kathi,Thanks for the understanding and the re-direction.But frankly – No, it does not make any better sense seeing that “Biological Father” is a “Concept”. God would not need to Conceive in the “BODY” but only in Mind and thought (Shhh..Don't let Gene see this idea …)To soften the blow I think you can make a…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,17:01)Kathi,There seems to be a secondary “Poll” in this thread – and that is “hands up everyone who thinks Kathi should drop her idea of Jesus INSIDE GOD”?Kathi, you can still hold your idea – just not foist in on us for we cannot hold it as any kind of truth or reality. You thought you had an idea – we all do – but…[Read more]

Pierre,If you look at the Hebrew you will see how v. 4 needs v.5 to follow it because it completes the thought of v. 4. Just read it how it is and know that the one who was wrestling with Jacob was identified as the Lord God Almighty. I will not go around and around with your switching around the verses because it doesn't fit your views.…[Read more]

Ok…seems like there is some anticipation here on the purpose of this poll.Well, I designed this poll mostly for Istari and my benefit because I was trying to communicate something to him that seemed obvious to me but he couldn't seem to see it. So, I think I have accomplished that somewhat anyway.The fact that I am leading to is that a man or…[Read more]

Pierre,What doesn't it say in those verses?Kathi

Pierre,If the Son was begotten before the ages and existed eternally within the Father before that, this poll helps people see how the Father was a 'Father' before He actually beget His Son. Sort of like a biological father is a father before the child is begotten according to human terms. People wonder how the Father could always have a Son and…[Read more]

Pierre,Then why are you asking me to explain to you?I am not saying that God is a man or that God is an angel. I am saying that the one that wrestled with Jacob was called Jehovah. Jehovah may have appeared as a man from heaven but He is not a man, of course, neither is He an angel being.Maybe you should ask God to explain what I am telling you…[Read more]

Mike,I am just trying to give you understanding of John 1:1c. The other translations do give the word 'with' and that is enough to show that there are two different ones spoken of here. The word 'mighty' is not appropriate either because 'mighty' is not a type of nature, divine is.Kathi

Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,17:06)Thank you Kathi,My mind was clear because I had already thought of it when it first came up, the first time, second, third and this time.I meant those who are earthbound ensconched in everyday common thoughts on matters.They may say, 'Of course….x y z' because that is their common everyday way of…[Read more]

Mike,If you substitute the word 'God' with 'divine' in 1c then you would clearly see that there is no need for the 'a.'In the beginning was the word and the word was with the God and the word was divine…not 'a divine.' So if John 1c is talking about what the word is, regarding His nature, then 'a' would be out of place…can't you see that?If…[Read more]

Good Karmarie,The question, even for the men was about the 'biological father' and I don't think they can really say that the man becomes the biological father only after birth and be factual. The question wasn't about when the man started acting like a father or felt like a father or found out that they were a father. Do you see that even for…[Read more]

Pierre,Perhaps you should just go to God with the question and read the scripture as written. To me, it is simply identifying the one who wrestled with Jacob as Jehovah and the rest of the verse in that chapter shows how Jehovah is and has been involved with men.Kathi

Quote (terraricca @ April 21 2011,21:27)Quote (karmarie @ April 22 2011,20:15)Biologically is different to actuallity. The unborn child is still growing.Kbiological just means who is the source right ?PierreYes Pierre. The biological father is the one who was the sperm donor. Whether he stuck around or not, he was the biological father.Kathi