Mike,Hosea said 'malak' and you have said that 'malak' means messenger all the time. What Hosea confirms is that the one wrestling with Jacob was Jehovah, God of hosts. Manoah saw the Son also but I don't think that He is specifically identified as Jehovah as in Hosea and Gen. 18.I thought you were out of here?Kathi

Thank you Mike.Kathi

Hi Marty,Which specific statement do you question:Creatures are by essence 'created' by God not 'born' of God. Creatures are a product of new matter. That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth. The only…[Read more]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,21:14)Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:53)That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth.So this “new matter” was not at one time also eternal within the Father?That's…[Read more]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,20:59)Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:41)Dennison,There is Jehovah, the unseen God the Father…and His image, Jehovah, the only begotten God from the Father, who was seen in the appearance of a man and taken for being an angel, but He is not a created angel.Kathi, I know the scriptures you use to claim…[Read more]

Mike,Quote For it to NOT be a vice regent OF God is to say that men have not only seen, but wrestled with God Himself. Now you are getting it Mike. Jesus is deity too!BTW, in the Genesis account of Jacob, there is no mention of an angel. It says that Jacob wrestled with God and at first it mentions Him as a man, no angel mentioned. Since malak…[Read more]

Pierre,Yes, that is what I am saying…the deity of Christ which means that the Son was eternal with the Father. Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

Pierre,Christians all over the world accept the deity of Christ.

Pierre,I am giving you scriptures and explaining to you my understanding. It is up to each of us to be the 'Berean.' Seek God for deeper understanding.God bless,Kathi

Marty,Creatures are by essence 'created' by God not 'born' of God. Creatures are a product of new matter. That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth. The only one born of God created all things…[Read more]

Pierre,Quote witch one of those verses do you not understand?I understand them. Jehovah is both Father and Son…two persons as one deity with their Spirit. Sometimes in the context it is clear that one is seen by man and then that one would be the Son, sometimes it is both collectively, sometimes Jehovah as the Father is referred to. Either…[Read more]

Pierre,It isn't for a lack of trying.Kathi

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 25 2011,11:14)pierre your in denial, take what is said.LU: r u stating that the LORD was in angel?note: i dot have direct internst access so my post will b short and simple bc im posting from my phone which is a pain.Dennison,There is Jehovah, the unseen God the Father…and His image, Jehovah, the only begotten God…[Read more]

Pierre,You are in denial. In Gen 18, Abraham is talking to one called Jehovah. In Hosea 4, it tells us that Jacob wrestled with one called Jehovah, God of hosts. When one changes scripture to fit their imaginations, they make a god out of their imaginations. Just read the scripture and let it stand as it is.The word translated as LORD that I…[Read more]

Well Pierre,The angel's name is Jehovah, God of hosts and if God of hosts, He is not a created angel because the 'hosts' were created by the word of God.Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Pierre and Kerwin,It doesn't say that He is the first of all creation…it says that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation and then goes on to say that all things came into being by Him.The Son is deity, one with the Father, He is eternal…was always within the Father, not as an act of the will, and then, before the…[Read more]

It is not the new creation spoken of in Col 1:15 but the old creation which is made obvious in the immediate verse which follows.The Firstborn of all creation created all things as the Firstborn, the image of the invisible God, God's only begotten Son born before the ages…the begotten God. God, the Father, so loved His Son and so loved the…[Read more]

Mike, In Gen 18 and in the story of Jacob wrestling with God, this is not an incident of a vice regent. Scripture clearly identifies the one as Jehovah as is made clear in Hosea 4. You must use conjecture to say otherwise.Kathi

Hi Mike,I know you have made a lot of posts to me which I haven't specifically addressed. They have come and gone, so hit me up with just one for now if you would like.Kathi

Kerwin,My understanding of the term pre-existent Son is an only begotten divine Son that has a mind and a will and a spirit…He was within the Father as an offspring that always existed, and then was begotten/born from the Father to work with Him…equal in nature to the Father just like a literal son would be…equally divine.John 3:16 “For G…[Read more]