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[Jael]

And without controversy, Mankind could not be saved without the pure and holy blood sacrifice of a sinless and holy man – quid pro quo – for the sin of Adam (Man, and the First man).

[Jael]

What exactly is t8 claiming about Jesus Christ?

Who is it that the Apostles claim is the mediator between ‘God’ and ‘Man[kind]’?

Jesus the Christ, a man but certainly not a ‘mere’ man but one who proved himself righteous, sinless and holy before Almighty God.

More than enough verses testify to this statement of concern:

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam) how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

[Jael]

Repeat: ‘The Word of God’ is not the person but the FULFILMENT of God’s promise to send a Saviour.

Understand: To be Anointed means, ‘To set aside for Kingship and/or Priesthood’ (Jesus was both: Kingdhip over mankind and High Priesthood to God: Only the high priest could directly interact with God in the synagogue: the mediator…!)

t8, are you saying that prior to being born, Jesus was an Spirit Angel? ‘To which of the Angels did God ever say…’!!

Believe: Before he was ‘Christ’, God TAUGHT Jesus and SHOWED Jesus everything he should say and do: ‘And he grew in knowledge and stature and in obedience to his parents and the law.’ (Paraphrased).

Learn: ‘Son’ in spiritual terms, means, ‘He who fully carries out the works of the Father’: I can only do what I see the Father doing, and say what the Father has taught me to say’ (Paraphrased). ‘All who follow the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Father) are Sons of God’, ‘I only said that I was the SON of God… if I am not doing the works of my Father then at least believe by the works you see me do.’ (Paraphrased).

‘Mere’: No, Jesus is not a ‘mere’ man. Jesus is ‘The Last Adam’. And who or what was ‘Adam’.

No, using the emphatic, ‘Mere’, is a deliberate attempt to belittle the greatest man of all time. It’s a scheme used by trinitarian to deny Jesus was a man. They add with word ‘mere’ despite all the evidence that Jesus was born in the manner of the first Adam: Holy and Sinless: a True Son of God. Where the first Adam failed, the second and last will succeed.

No, it’s a clear disappointment that anyone who believes as a Christian should disdain his brothers by claiming they are calling Jesus Christ (Jesus THE CHRIST…) a ‘Mere’ man!!

[Jael]

Please try to understand:

• ’The Word of God’ is not a person. Almighty God made a promise that he would send a Saviour. In the fullness of time Almighty God FULFILLED that promise.
• To ‘Come in the Flesh / Become flesh’ is not about a person – it is about a promise being FULFILLED. That promise was OF a person, a Saviour: The SERVANT of Almighty God (Psalm 42:1)

————————

• A ‘Son of God’ is ANYONE who fully carries out the works of Almighty God: The Father. Since the man, Jesus Christ, is THE ONLY PERSON who fully and continuously carried out the works of Almighty God, he, and only he, can be considered as a HUMAN SON OF GOD. Most scholars EXCLUDE Adam as a once Son of God (Luke 3:38) because they do not want to overshadow or equivafy Adam with Jesus Christ. This is WRONGFUL thinking. Adam was the FIRST human Son of God – BUT he fell away to Sin. Study the Scriptures and you will find repeated analogies: The FIRST SON always SINS and a SECOND is brought up in POSITION to replace that first… check out the children of the patriarchs: Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob…David, Solomon… Scriptures tells it is the SAME with Adam and Jesus: ‘Jesus Christ – the Second / Last ADAM’. But remembering that ‘Adam’ means ‘Man’ and in this case, ‘Holy and Sinless MAN’, it is quite appropriate that Jesus should be seen as ‘The LAST ADAM’. And, scriptural, that he is seen as ‘The ONLY (human) Son of God. Now, of course, it will be interjected: ‘Spirit Angels are Sons of God’… Well, you well know that Spirit ‘Angels’ are not made in the image of God… that there is no salvation for a Spirit Angel that sins.

 

• ‘Begotten’: Trinitarians claim that the Son was ‘Born from eternity’ and this should mean ‘Never Born’… I won’t say anything here as ‘disingenuous’ is far too weak a word to describe such utter nonsense! Following the theme in the previous bullet point; The Son closest in love and confidence to the Father is the ‘begotten one’. Normally this is THE FIRST BORN (chronologically) Son. Naturally then, if the first born Son sins and is dismissed, the one brought up in his place is now the ‘FIRSTBORN’ (Note the non-space between the words, meaning ‘Not Chronological but Spiritually’, ‘Most Loved’. Obviously until that first son sins, he is BOTH First Born AND Firstborn). Begotten, is used to ascribe a person ‘Born to’ a Father or Adopted /‘Brought UP in position of love, closeness’ to another. Thus Paul ‘begat’ Onesemus …Onesemus was a runaway slave adopted by Paul, who was in prison at the time. It certainly did not mean that Paul birthed him by sexual intamacy with a woman. Paul had many disciples (understudies) but Onesemus was the ‘most loved’, the one who was most fervent in his ‘doing the works of his master, Paul’. Onesemus was a ‘True Son’ of Paul.

[Jael]

Gene, yes… Jesus was prophesied to be the son of God. Prophesy is ‘of the future’, just as the Apostle wrote: ‘We were told that man would be theruler over all things but as yet we have not seen that occur’ (paraphrased). And has Jesus taken his seat on the spiritual throne of his forefather, king David? And has Death been subdued and destroyed?

– Three, as yet, unfulfilled prophesies!

Going back… Think that Adam could do all things that Jesus did if he had remained sinless… but to some generation of his offspring. That is, msn would sin at some stage in his generations… it need not have been Adam. If Adam had not sinned then he himself would be that Son of God (Luke 3:38) who might have been the sacrificial lamb.

Remember that God was extremely angry with Adam for sinning. God certainly did not expect that Adam would be the one to sin. What! Not even one generation of mankind can endure?

You, I, t8, and all other believing Christians know that God was holding out on destroying mankind in the hope that even ONE PERSON of mankind would live a life in accordance with his laws. How many generations from Adam (Or rather, Abraham!!) to days of Jesus? Not one was found – not even David nor Solomon. The Jews knew that a Saviour was coming… absolutely! But they thought wrong on what that Saviour was meant to do. They desired a warrior Saviour to save them from the Romans just as they were saved from enslavement, persecution, and death, in the past.

They most certainly did not believe that Almighty God himself was going to come… That does not fulfil a prophecy. The Saviour was a HUMAN from mankind. [A] God wrapped in human flesh cannot be a sacrifice.

More to say… but if I were to write it here there would it be enough space to hold the writing!!

[Jael]

The trinity is a false doctrine that all true Christians keep well clear of as an ideology.

Jesus was not a pre-existent being that ‘Came in the flesh’ (as in, was a Spirit Being and then changed to put on flesh!).

What ‘Came in the flesh’ was ‘The Word of God’…. Jehovah’s very Word that he would send a saviour (Isaiah 42:1), came to fruition / came true / came into being (all ‘being’ is FLESH).

Scriptures prophesies that this Saviour would be on chosen from among the Jews, and those same Jews knew the time was close for his coming. The very fact that two of the closest believers gave their life to well beyond normal age in belief that they wouldn’t die before the Saviour came showed that the time was close.

Jesus was not Almighty God. He was God’s representative. God TAUGHT HIM from childhood … Jesus did NOTHING as a child nor adolescent except obey his parents and the law… he showed PERFECT righteousness to man and his God… he HAD NO POWER to do anything even as he knew it was his future to be mighty in Spirit.

Mary knew he would be great also and tried to push him into doing things – she got frustrated and confused as to why he didn’t perform great deeds – Jesus had to be firm with her so he wasn’t TEMPTED to ‘taste the forbidden fruit of power before his time’.

When the time was right, Jesus was ….SENT INTO THE WORLD… First, baptised as a sign – the Holy Spirit ANOINTING him (SETTING HIM ASIDE FOR PRIESTHOOD OR/AND KINGSHIP) as THE CHRIST (‘the anointed one’)

Was Jesus ‘THE CHRIST’ before he was ‘ANOINTED’… No! But was DESTINED to be so!!

Was Jesus ‘THE SAVIOUR’ before died on the cross? No! But he knew that if he passed the temptation tests that he was DESTINRD to be so!!

A prophecy is not a fact until it is fulfilled…

 

[Jael]

Sorry, what is the dispute about?

[Jael]

t8, all the things you wrote to Nick concerning the ‘Man’ in heaven before the world was, INCLUDE FAKED text.

It is clear that these have been ADDED as they do not follow the theme of the verse.

The trinity translators added in verses to include Jesus where it might declare Father as the sole doer. The things written were done after Jesus rose from the dead and was taken up to heaven but trinity obeyers will see, ‘Jesus in Glory’ as being so ALWAYS BEFORE and forever by ignoring the PRESENT CONTEXT of the verses.

If Jesus is God, Why was he given glory and REWARDED with the spiritually ‘earthly’ throne of king David… is GOD not KING OF THE GREATER HEAVEN – why would becoming ‘King of Earth’ be a REWARD for dying when he already was KING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH?

Trinitarians have become adept at responding with ridiculous answers when the truth is put to them… therefore the truth means nothing to them. Any silly answer is an answer so as long they reply to a question that makes their belief credible in their and their brightens eyes. It also allows them to go away and devise responses that modify their defences in favour of trinity support. Nowadays, Phil 2 is not ‘Jesus emptied himself’ as the verse SAYS, but ‘Jesus dis-availed himself of glory to be God. He stopped using his power as God and humbled himself’ which the verse DOESNT SAY. They say this because they realise that he they can use the verse where Jesus askes the Father to give him [….] the glory… they add ‘BACK’ to make it seem he HAD IT but lost it… er, dis-availed himself of it!

[Jael]

t8, I agree only that the Father created all things.

Jesus was not existent in heaven when the world was created so it cannot be that God Created all things THROUGH Jesus.

In fact, rendering the text as ‘God Created through Jesus’, is complete nonsense if Jesus IS GOD!

Saying, ‘The Father Created all things through the son’ Is also nonsense since ALL THREE ‘gods’ Are EQUAL. Here, the Son is SUBORDINATED and receives power from the father. This cannot be if Jesus IS GOD.

Tje REAL PROBLEM is that the trinity was not designed to be scrutinise. It was just designed to be believed BY THREAT of eternal condemnation and death (as it says in the Athanasian creed – which is LATER modified creed from the origins al as HUGE discrepancies were found in the now virtually defunct Apostles Creed!)

[Jael]

t8, Nick:

• ‘[Jesus] had glory with the Father before the world was’

This is interesting in that the verse DOES NOT claim that [Jesus] had glory WHEN the world was… only BEFORE. Yet another scripture claim [Jesus] CREATED the world and all things within… and then another STATES that it was the FATHER who created everything ‘through’ the Son. Well, if [Jesus] only had glory BEFORE the world was, the question is then: ‘What GLORY did he have AS THE WORLD WAS MADE – more glory, but likely, following the logic, LESS OR NONE’? Quite a flaw in trinity ideology, eh?

I won’t touch on how, if Jesus is God, he could ‘lose his glory’. If it were even possible that God could lose his glory then ‘God would not be God’… period!

• The Word made flesh

God gave HIS WORD to mankind that he would provide a SAVIOUR who would turn mankind back to himself. He sent many prophets with his word to remind his wayward people of this promise: ‘I will send my servant who will indeed turn my people back to me!’ (Isaiah 42:1-2, paraphrased)

In the fullness of time by God’s judgement, God ACTED ON HIS PROMISE : his WORD WAS MADE FLESH : He SENT HIS SERVANT, as promised!

A Man has fallen from a roof but is hanging from the guttering. A wealthy passerby sees him and promises to send his servant to get him down. In time, a short time, the Servant arrives with a ladder and saves the man. The wealthy passerby’s WORD WAS MADE FLESH: He SENT HIS SERVANT, that servant was the saviour of the man (Notwithstanding that the wealthy person was also saviour for sending the Servant!!)

[Jael]

t8, “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”.

When you err so easily in claiming that the Son is the firstborn over all creation with a meaning that the Son was the first created, I know then why you err so easily over other matters.

When you err so easily over the convoluted and CLEARLY BADLY ALTERED text that claims that all things are in the Son and the son created all things then it was through him but by god and that it was for him…yes, I can see why years of attempting to unravel ridiculous translations have contributed to the delusion you now believe in…!

t8, you say that you have discovered great truths through hearing what others have said, and it has humbled you… believe me, it’s a credit to you, BUT, you need to hear the GODLY Truth instead, and let the Holy Spirit show you the pitfalls in the trinity-twisted scripture verses.

Perhaps it hurts you when you read something that exposes the reality of your wrongful precepts… you stop reading and go elsewhere looking for someone to agree with you!

You won’t have read this far but I’ll write it anyway:

’Son’, in Scriptures (TRUE SON OF A FATHER) means ‘One who does the works of the Father’. For Jesus to be ‘Son of God’ means he did (was doing) the what God showed him to do… t8, The Son MUST HAVE FIRST SEEN and then done before he could be said to be ‘DOING’ the works of the Father.

’Firstborn’, in Scriptures, means ‘The one who is CLOSEST IN PERSON to the Father. God did not give birth to Israel yet scriptures says God said, ‘Israel is my firstborn [of all the nations of earth?!]’… easily understood!

Typically, the chronologically first birthed male is to be blessed (and called FIRSTBORN… note the difference.. because he ‘opened the womb’) but if that son sins against the Father, another of the male children is brought forward in dearmemt to the father and called, ‘my FIRSTBORN’ (I’m sure you know this…!)

Jesus was made FIRSTBORN over CREATION when he fulfilled his duties and died and was made alive again… he BECAME the FIRSTBORN of mankind to the Father, first BORN from the dead. As such he is also GOD’s ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

And in case you don’t know it, BEGOTTEN, in this case means he has become A SON to the Father, and God has become A FATHER to him (See, ‘Onesimus being Begotten by Paul’)

[Jael]

t8, I understand why you are reposting something I have already answered you. I notice you don’t respond when you are proved wrong but instead try to pick out the whitened bones for your meat.

Just to reiterate. The verse stating that Jesus came in the flesh is rigidly pointed at those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come IN PERSON as yet. To believe that he has not yet come is to deny the great act of God and the great sacrifice of said Jesus. It also claims the scriptures is deceiving people. The scriptures says that in time God would send a Saviour who would ‘save his people’ / this what the name ‘Jesus’ (English rendering) means. ALL who call themselves ‘Christians’ or ‘Jews’ believe that God made this promise… but many also believe that God has not yet fulfilled that promise…

t8, THAT is what that verse means.

It DOES NOT MEAN or imply ‘Jesus as a Spirit BECAME FLESH’ (that Jesus PRE-EXISTED as a Spirit) – That is a trinitarian and JW false claim.

Jesus the Christ was born as a sinless and holy human being in the manner of Adam so as to give parity in the requirement of God that a sinless and holy man should give his blood and die (A terrible thing for sinless one) for the atonement of the sin of Adam (the whole of humanity, in effect!)

[Jael]

Yes, Nick..

Jesus sent the disciples ‘into the world’, sent them to oppose the evil and Satan’s regime.

[Jael]

Hi t8, what you should conclude is that you are deliberately mistaking two different things concerning ‘came (or coming) in the flesh’.

In John 1, the ‘WORD’ of God, God’s Promise to send a Saviour took on flesh, came true.

The second point was against those who refused to believe that Jesus the saviour had come (died and rose again). There were many Jews who still did not believe, even today. They are still awaiting THAT PROMISE from God.

Do you notice the ‘FROM GOD’? Whether you believe Jesus IS GOD, or you believe Jesus is some kind of Procreated Spirit offspring of God (Even God cannot do the impossible and remain God!!), the scriptures states that Jesus was a man sanctified BY GOD and sent into the world…

FIRST, he was a man, next he was SANCTIFIED, and finally, SENT INTO the world.

t8, ‘have you been …’ preaching ‘so long and have not recognised …’ what “Into the World” means?

t8, ‘Into the world’ means, ‘against those who oppose God; against the evil one’. It does NOT mean, ‘Born in humanity’. This is, in fact, where many wrongful ideas stem from but is easily cleared up when you read that it was AFTER Jesus was BAPTISED (apology for previous post where I said John the Baptist didn’t call Jesus ‘the word’, I meant ‘John the Apostle/Disciple) that he was ‘Sent into the world’. John 10:36 states this… Jesus answered the jews saying, ‘what of the one the Father sanctified and sent into the world…’.

t8, why would Jesus in heaven need sanctifying (some say, Consecrated) before being born as a baby on Earth (in the world)?

In fact, can you say where in scriptures it says that God consecrated, ‘set apart’, Jesus? Hint: ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased’!!

[Jael]

Yes, Gene, trinity certain makes a false image of the Son of God: ‘Jesus, a man sanctified by God’…

When scriptures calls Jesus, ‘a Man’, Trinitarians ignore it. They, instead, try to force innocent verses to claim that Jesus is saying he is God…even when Jesus goes out of his way to say, ‘I am not God’.

In fact, Jesus saying, ‘I AM not God’, would convince Trinitarians that Jesus WAS saying he was God…!!!

[Jael]

Gene, yes, Jesus BECAME ‘The Christ’ at his baptism at the river Jordan. You rightly state that it means, ‘Anointed [one]’, which is exactly what occurred to him.

But it also means, ‘Chosen One’.

If Jesus was God Almighty, isn’t it a strange thing that ALMIGHTY GOD should say to him, ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased!’?

This would certainly draw an image of Almighty God blessing ALMIGHTY GOD for being ‘Well Pleasing’? But how could Almighty God be anything other than ‘Well Pleasing’… oh well, I guess a trinitarian would say, ‘Exactly, God was well pleased with Jesus in a human body still being God!’ (Trinitarians do not like using the title ‘Almighty God’ because even they recognise that ONLY THE FATHER is ALMIGHTY and that Jesus IS NOT!!)

[Jael]

t8,

1) The Word became flesh. Jesus Christ came in the flesh. The Lord and messiah was born in Bethlehem.

2) That Adam was from earth and Jesus from heaven.

3) The Son of God is the prototype offspring of God. He is the image of the invisible God. All things were created through Him and for Him and he is before all things.

1) ‘Jesus’ is NOT whom scriptures says came in the flesh. It is the WORD that came, God’s Word, God’s PROMISE OF A SAVIOUR (a Christ). John the Baptist did not call Jesus,’The word’ but rather, ‘The Light’:

John 1: 6-‘There was a man sent from God…,’ (Note that “sent from God does not mean ‘is God’ ”) ‘…whose name was John This man came as a witness of the Light, that all through him (the Light) might believe. He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light’.

Whom did John the Baptist bear witness to?

2) In what was was Jesus [the] Christ born? Was it not in the same manner as Adam… was it not through the breath of God, the Holy Spirit, and not of the seed of sinful man ? In this way BOTH Adam and Jesus were SINLESS AND HOLY: ‘Sons of God’?

3) t8, your post here is ultra-vague, literally a cut and paste of nonsense. The ‘prototype’ Son is AFTER Jesus completed his task… You cannot call something untested ‘Complete’.

And, ‘offspring of God’… what does that mean? Did you just throw those words in hoping they would seem impressive… sorry, waste of time!

The term, ‘image of God’ was ALSO given to Adam, and Adam was ALSO called, ‘Son of God’… so ‘prototype’ cannot refer to BOTH the sinner and the sinless at the same times. Didn’t you read ‘prototype’ as being AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead and taken up to heaven?

t8, ‘All things were created THROUGH him (meaning Jesus Christ)’? Where do you read those words in scriptures and find them cohesive with scriptures… Does scriptures not say that ‘GOD ALONE’ created all things? Are you turning binitarian now in your old age of hosting?

[Jael]

Gene, it certainly appears that there is some truth in what you just said regarding mankind sinning.

If Adam had not sinned then it seems most likely that one of his offspring would at some time.

Yes, God had planned for a Saviour for such a situation: a contingency.

Remember that God requires a blood sacrifice from a pure sinless man in order to appease the sin of [whomever]… God waited and searched but everyone of mankind sinned after the fashion of his patriarch father, Adam… even though some came close: Noah, even Abraham, even Moses, even David and Solomon… none were found pure and sinless enough to occupy the position of ‘Son of God’.

When God saw that no one of the bloodline of Adam could fulfil the role, he brought forth one in the same manner AS ADAM… and subjected this one to the same conditions, in fact, WORSE, than that of Adam, and, yes, Jesus endured – despite ALMOST SLIPPING near the end: ‘Father, if this cup could be taken from me: if there was another way…!? But never the less, let it be YOUR WAY!’

(Ask a trinitarian, if Jesus is God, why was Jesus afraid of dying?)

[Jael]

Gene, the tree of life is not a physical thing. It is a metaphor….!

[Jael]

Gene, yes, jesus’ body did not see corruption, did not perish. None the less he was given a new body that was incorruptible.

Now ask a trinitarian why, if Jesus is God, he needs to be given an incorruptible body?

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