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[bic]

Jesus used several examples of trees which did not produce fruit. If a tree is fruitless, it is worthless. It is to be cut down and thrown in the fire. It is the fruit that we bear that makes us worthy of harvest.

The question is whether or not God will withdraw the Holy Spirit (or perhaps it is REPULSED) once it has been given. Scripture seems to suggest this (through several verses) and David seemed to think so. I tend to believe that “it ain't over until it's over”. As long as you have a breath to draw, you can CHANGE the road you're own, for better or for worse.

[bic]

Good Lord, t8, I read your post above and I had to look to make sure that it wasn't something that I had written. It only concurred with my beliefs almost exactly. I knew there had to be others with the same understanding as mine.

It was that same control 'in the church' that crucified Jesus. Things haven't changed that much.

Scripture confirms that Satan has introduced a counterfeit religion with his very own “ministers of righteousness” deceiving the “whole world”. The woman of Revelation 12 is spiritual Israel or the Church. Her son is Jesus Christ. The imagery of 12:1-6 is UNMISTAKABLE. Later, after the dragon is kicked out of heaven (v. 9), Satan's anger is directed towards the church (God's chosen). He couldn't stop the Master (Jesus) from planting His seed (His ministry, or commission), so now his attempt is to destroy His harvest. Verse 15 says that the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood (in an attempt to 'drown' her). The 'flood' he sends is not literal water, of course, but is propaganda, half-truths, and lies: dogma, doctrine, creeds, rituals, and traditions. Satan's power has always been in his MOUTH: He is the ACCUSER, the Father of all Lies.

The REMNANT of her 'seed' are identified as “those which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (v.17).

Many follow that path (Satan's counterfeit church) through the “broad gate”, but few find their way through the “narrow gate” (the remnant). Many are called but few are chosen. It is “the small flock”, the elect or the chosen few who “overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

[bic]

Just the use of Father and Son implies two distinct entities. Trinitarians cannot know either the Father nor the Son if they can't see them distinctly.

[bic]

God is Spirit. His Spirit is Holy. Spirit is energy or POWER. The Holy Spirit is God's POWER.

This SPIRIT beget MATTER and corruption entered into the world. With Spirit, there is no death. With Matter, it is inevitable.

Jesus was God's first begotten (born of flesh). But God had a Spiritual 'Son' BEFORE creation. It was through this 'Son', the Word, that all things were CREATED. The Word, at Father's command, gave up His Godness and came down to live…and die in a flesh and blood (corruptible) body, the man Jesus Christ. But then, He was resurrected in a new, glorified body and has taken His RIGHTFUL place, once again, beside His Father.

All CREATION was SPOKEN into existence: “And God SAID…” (The WORD created).

The LOGOS is the executioner of God's decree, commands, and plans…His right hand man…His FIRSTBORN of all creation. This later became the man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the Logos can be seen as a MANIFESTATION of God. There are many other MANIFESTATIONS of God, creatures of which we can only imagine. It appears that long before (the) Creation (of matter), God had a lot of company…'hosts' comes to mind.

Because of the DUALITY of Jesus' nature, He spoke as TWO distinct and separate entities. He spoke as the man Jesus and sometimes He spoke as the Word. When He asked the man, “Why do you call me good…”, He was talking as the man Jesus. When He said, “My Father and I are ONE.”, He was talking as the Logos.

The thing about it is that Jesus was drawing on the POWER (Holy Spirit) of God to ENABLE Him to be and do GOOD. We can do the very same thing! Praise God for His AWESOME power! Is there POWER in His WORD or not? You KNOW it! How do you draw on that power? In FAITH, through BELIEF in His WORD. Don't have to know nothing but Jesus. So plain and simple, the wise are confounded.

Jesus HAD freewill…does the Logos? It would seem not but who knows but God (and maybe Logos).

[bic]

Thank you, Paul, for your kind consideration and your valuable input. The time of 3:00 P.M is just an approximation and not an exact time. In order for ALL of scripture to be in agreement (and for the faithful Jewish followers to comply with the Law), they must have laid Jesus in the tomb after His death (sometime shortly after the ninth hour) but before the Sabbath began at sunset. Any time before approximately 6:00 P.M. Passover night would work.

I have not heard of this '18 hour days'…I'll have to check into that.

I have used much restraint to NOT read the books of the Apocrypha. Although my carnal scientific mind desires to do so very much, my spiritual heart has resisted it. You have undoubtedly heard the expression 'inspired text' which means it was inspired of God. I have found that when reading non-canonical books, I am NOT inspired by the words, indicating to me that they are NOT the inspired word of God. Scripture, on the other hand, does indeed inspire me when I read it. Of course, to be honest, since I have read only sparingly of the books of the Apocrypha, I really can't judge them.

As you probably know, at the time of Jesus, there were many others, some with quite a following, who claimed to be Mesisah. Apocalyptic literature was also very prevalent. Although secular writings (non-inspired) can indeed strengthen and confirm the Bible, it can also introduce 'damnable heresies' and error. I suggest that everyone use caution when reading non-canonical texts so as not to be led astray. Wasn't it Eve's mind that caused her to reject her heart?

One thing that has always struck me about the Bible, and especially the New Testament and Jesus, is that it never went out of its way to convince people of its truth or validity. In fact, just the opposite appears to be the case: it CONFOUNDS the wise; it blinds the eyes and stops up the ears; it is full of “hard sayings”, seeming contradictions, and cryptic verses.

Not many will ever 'get it'. Most will turn away, scoffing and sneering. Only a chosen few, picked before creation, will heed the call of the Father and give glory to the Son. For all of those who are called, may God keep you and guide you into all truth.

[bic]

There are THREE heavens referred to in scripture and these can be differentiated by the context of their use.

The first is indeed the atmosphere above the earth. In this heaven, birds fly:

Jer:4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

10:13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

The second heavens is outer space (the universe), where the stars and planets rest and the third heaven is on the other side of the universe (best reached by travelling through unto another dimension).

10:14 Behold, the heaven (the second) and the heaven of heavens (the third) is the LORD’s thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 Chr:27:23 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens. (second)

Psalms 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Only three heavens are spoken of…there is little reason to believe that there are more.

[bic]

Sorry for jumping in so late. Maybe this will help.

Most people are unaware that two separate Sabbaths are referred to in the Gospel accounts. The first was an ANNUAL Sabbath, one of SEVEN occurring each year, called High Days. Most of these Sabbaths could fall on ANY day of the week. The second was a weekly Sabbath, occurring every SEVEN days on the last day, Saturday.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Notice how John clearly marks that Sabbath as an Annual Sabbath.

Jesus was crucified on Passover, the 14th of the first month, Abib. The next day began the Feast of Unleavened Bread and was an Annual Sabbath.

Lev:23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’s passover.
23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Jesus was crucified A.D. 31, April 25, on a Wednesday. He died somewhere around 3:00 P.M., Wednesday and was buried sometime before sunset. The next day, Thursday, was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, an Annual Sabbath. The women bought the spices for His body after this Annual Sabbath (on Thursday night or Friday morning, a Preparation Day) but before the Weekly Sabbath (Friday night to Saturday night). They returned to annoint His body with the spices before sunrise, on Sunday morning and His body was already gone. He had lain in the grave from Wednesday afternoon until Saturday afternoon, the time of His resurrection.

Luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’  preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luke 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

All of scripture is resolved when it is put together correctly. Jesus WAS in 'hell' for three DAYS and three NIGHTS, and it was indeed the ONLY sign given that He really was the Messiah.

Satan has changed the Sabbath from the seventh day(Saturday) to the first day of the week (Sunday); he has changed the yearly calendar from beginning in Spring (late April) to the middle of winter (a week after the winter solstice); he has changed the days so that they begin six hours later (midnight instead of sundown); all in an attempt to confound and wrest and corrupt, in every way possible, the truth. Yet, in spite of all this, the true still remains. Praise God for His infallible Word.

[bic]

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Bic, I asked Nick if the Gal 4 verse was referring to Jesus' personal spirit of the Spirit, he said it didn't and that it in fact referred to the Father's Spirit that indwelt Jesus. Perhaps you should read Nick's post more thoroughly before you jump to (wrong) conclusions.

I didn't really jump to any conclusions. You asked if the Father's own Spirit would call out to itself. I merely pointed out that the verse said “Spirit of His Son”, which then makes sense for it to cry out “Abba, Father”.

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Hi Bic, I assume that you believe the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus to be two seperate spirits. Is this true?

Not exactly. All humans are born with a spirit, the spirit of man. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God) then we have two spirits within us. If we are possessed with demon spirits, we can have many spirits but we cannot have the Holy Spirit (while possessed).

Jesus, however, is a special case. His Father is God. Therefore, His Spirit could never have been like our spirit but must have always been a more God-like Spirit. True, He's partly human, the result of being born to a human mother. But how much does that change Him, not having a human father? Only God knows for sure.

Therefore, I would think that no matter how much Jesus' Spirit was like that of His Father's, it would STILL be a different Spirit. So, yes. However, if two Spirits are exactly the same, are they really different? So, no.

It's a dichotomy, I guess…and a conundrum…and a riddle…and a paradox…and a mystery.

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If we need both the Fathers and the Sons seperate spirits to seal our salvation why is this not written of in the NT letters? and, how do we recieve the Spirit of Jesus?

We receive the Spirit of Christ by receiving the Spirit of God THROUGH Christ. The same Spirit that entered Jesus from the Father, Jesus gives to us. That is why we are all ONE. We share the same Spirit…the Spirit of God…the Holy Spirit.

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ex: Galations 3:5 “He” therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth “he” it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The 'he' used here does not refer to the Holy Spirit

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1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as “he” will.

This 'he' does not refer to the Holy Spirit; it refers to God.

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1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on “THEIR” part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified

The 'he' here refers to Christ.

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Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will “I” give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will “I“ give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The PERSON talking here is Jesus Christ, identified as the Son of man in verse 1:13.

Concerning John 3:3 and being born again: Actually, no one has been born again yet, except Jesus. Only He has been born of Spirit. We have only been conceived and are still yet in the womb. Notice what Jesus said:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice how He likens everyone born of the Spirit to the INVISIBLE wind. No human beings upon the earth have attained this state as yet; we are still all in our flesh and blood bodies. It won't be until the resurrection that we will finally be born of the Spirit. At that time, we will no longer have bodies of flesh. It will be in these GLORIFIED spiritual bodies that we will enter the kingdom of God. This is really what Jesus was telling Nicodemus.

As far as salvation and baptism, I have only this to say:

Matt:16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place…
…2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
…2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
…2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

trettep: It seems to be your contention that this baptism of Acts 2:38 is NOT a water baptism. I believe that it is. While I cannot say that water baptism is essential for salvation, I can say that it must be very important or desirable as Jesus Himself was baptised by water.

Jesus lived a life that was an example as to how we should live ours. If He felt compelled to be baptised by water (and notice that He received the Holy Ghost when He was), what reason could we give for not wanting to FOLLOW His example?

Have you resisted baptism because it forces you to fellowship with others? Some other reason?

Nevertheless, with Peter receiving the keys to the kingdom, with all of the other disciples in agreement with him, with the birth of the church on the Day of Pentecost, with the question asked, “What shall we do?”, Peter's procla
mation of Acts 2:38 seems ipso facto to be the definitive 'method' of salvation. If there be any creed or doctrine to follow, it should be this one.

Once you've received the promise of the Holy Ghost, God will take over from that point forward. While being led by God, you'll never wonder WHAT you should do next; however, you'll probably find yourself wondering WHY…or, perhaps, even HOW.

[bic]

Hi, Nick. When I started reading “The Plain Truth”, I was amazed at how I could find hardly any fault in their magazine. This was very unusual because I snorted in disgust, more often than not, at what I normally read. I requested all of their free literature (which also impressed me) and, once again, found myself agreeing to MOST of what they taught. Some of it I wasn't too sure of.

Anyhow, I was impressed enough to contact the local 'chapter' and a husband and wife team came to visit us in our home. Now remember, I had just come out of a POWERFUL church (full of the Holy Ghost) and was not particularly looking for another church (denomination), though I had moved away from my previous one. I was NOT too impressed with the couple that visited. As I said earlier, God had given me the gift of discernment and the Holy Spirit was not detected (felt) from them. Of course, this is not to judge either them or the denomination, so I wasn't 'put off' by the visit. Yet, neither was I drawn. The good news, however, is that a sense of dread did not come over me, as was sometimes the case when I went to another church or even just considered entering one. Many times the Holy Spirit had stopped me from entering a church or had warned me of the spirit within another person. I can now read those verses where the demons were affected merely by the presence of Jesus (His Spirit tormented theirs) and understand them completely.

So, later, in a different city, I once again contacted them and located a local assembly to attend. While I was impressed by the knowledge of some I met there, and by the format of the 'services' (they met in a rented building and not a church), the Holy Spirit was still noticeably absent. IOW, I just didn't feel the POWER (of the HS) that I was expecting. Still, there was no 'red flags', no HS warnings, as was usually felt where Satan was working. Perhaps this church is the “lukewarm” church of Revelation, I don't know. I do think, though, that they very much believe in the power of the HS and do not believe in the cessation of gifts, as some denoms do.

As far as the ten lost tribes of Israel, I believe that Armstrong was indeed on to something but as far as the ability to prophesy their future, I don't see that happening. Still, Manasseh and Ephraim are two very good fits for Britain and the USA. Also, while I do admire how they believe that God's commandments were NOT nailed to the tree with Christ (IOW, believing that faith without works is dead), I also am a little put off by their legalistic leanings.

The WWCOG was heading in one direction under HA. Upon his death, the church splintered and the various factions each headed tangentially in different directions. Without Armstrong, his ship became lost at sea. I still read the Good News magazine and use some of his writings for reference.

The doctrines that Armstrong taught that I agree with are the very ones thought by mainstream religion to be heretical: Unitarianism (no Trinity), soul sleep, and annihilation of the wicked. A lot of the rest I agreed with also but not all. I'm not sure that I would call Herbert a prophet but I do believe that God used him to let some light into this otherwise darkened world.

For the mind, HA's writings were as good as they come. For the heart, however, the UPC is still tops in my book.

[bic]

Hi, Nick. In response to the seeming contradiction between Hebrews 11:5 and 11:13, there could be another answer other than the one you propose. Scripture does not say that Enoch did not die only that he did not SEE death. It says that Enoch was “no more” and that God “took him”. It also gives the number of his days as 365 years: Gen:5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:. It is interesting to note that this is the number of days in a year and that Enoch was the seventh in line from Adam.

More important, however, is that nowhere in scripture is it mentioned that Enoch was taken to heaven alive or given an eternal body. This kind of thinking came about after the Babylonian captivity of Judah. Yet, it was the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism, a religion which paralleled ours in very many ways, that introduced false beliefs and doctrines into the Jewish faith. The idea of immediately going to heaven or hell after death, for example, is one such belief that was carried back when Cyrus let the Jews return. Paradise, the intermediate waiting place between death and resurrection, was another concept (and word) borrowed from 'Z'. If you will remember, the Medes/Persian empire conquered Babylonia during the exile. Zoroaster was the Greek name for the Iranian (Persian) prophet Zarathustra. The way that these 'Z' beliefs crept into Judaism was through the new Persian converts that joined the Jews in returning to the Holy Land. This is EXACTLY why God had forbidden the Jewish people from taking foreign wives (because they would begin to worship 'strange' gods). See Esther 8:17.

At any rate, the language surrounding the fate of Enoch is very terse in scripture and we have to treat it very carefully. For example, if we look for other areas in the Bible where the word “took” is used, we find that, in many such instances, death is the outcome. The phrase “was no more” indicates death in at least a couple of other places in scripture.

There is not enough scripture to presuppose that Enoch was indeed translated up into heaven. I used to believe this way and told many of how Enoch HAD to come back (because of Hebrews 9:27) as one of the two witnesses. I was also certain that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist. Now, I doubt that either of these beliefs were correct.

The ONE thing that prevents me from giving any serious consideration to these beliefs is the PREEMINENCE of Jesus Christ. How could any mortal human being (no matter how holy) PRECEDE our Lord and Savior to heaven? Furthermore, if Jesus Himself stated that NO ONE has ascended to heaven but Himself, how could I doubt it? No, I must find another meaning in these verses than what it seems obvious. I leave this discussion with a verse which seems to (for once and for all) settle this debate:

1 Cor:15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

The good news is even if we don't understand the blueprint and itinerary to our resurrected lives with Yeshua, that still wouldn't affect our salvation and the great things the Father has laid in store for us.

Amen to that, Cubes, and thank you for reminding us of what's really important. Though it may be fun and even enlightening to debate things not so clearly seen, we should never let these pursuits detract us from our 'duty' (yea, but rather our desire) to glorify Him in ALL things and in ALL things PRAISE Him for the love that He has shown us through His word/Word. If we truly KNOW Him, do we need to know anything else? His grace is sufficient for me.

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You seem to be saying the sheep and goats are already separated before the second resurrection?

Revelation 20:4-6 seems pretty explicit to me. There is a FIRST resurrection and at least one more. Matthew 25:31-32 is not nearly so explicit and there could be a thousand year span between the Son of man coming in glory in verse 31 and the gathering of nations and the separation of the sheep and goats of verse 32. However, since those of the 1st resurrection will rule with Christ, they MUST be resurrected at His coming, as in Matt:24:31 (and many others). Therefore, some kind of separation is implied. Whether this could be called a judgment (as in punishment), I don't know.

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You mean the S+G judgement is at the start of the millenium?

Only the separation of the elect from all the rest. The judgment may commence at His return and be completed at the end of the thousand years. Can it be that SOME will be cast into the lake of fire BEFORE the second resurrection? I don't know, someone else will have to tell me.

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Then you are saying after the millenium there is the second resurrection and the GWT judgement?

That part seems to be clear, yes.

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The sheep in the S+G judgement are obviously not you and I would you agree unless that is how you are hoping to be saved?

While it may not be either you or me, I think these sheep are the chosen or elect of God who will reign with Christ at His coming. I think that this is the “small flock”, which inludes those select few such as the 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes) and the 12 chosen to rule over each of these (perhaps like generals over lesser ranked 'officers'). Are these 12 the original apostles with the exception of Judas being replaced by another? If we look back at the inheritance of the original 12 tribes of Israel, a replacement took place there, as well. Notice how the list in Revelation 7 is different from that in Genesis 49; Dan is replaced by Manasses (a son of Joseph). Revelation 20:4 seems to list a select group. I don't know what all this means. God surely had a reason for including all of this in scripture. Perhaps, in time, it will all become clear.

How am I hoping to be saved? By the wonderful grace of God. Without His mercy, I don't stand a chance. Praise God for His never-ending mercy!

[bic]

Yes, but their bodies being raised is no different than Lazarus' body being raised. There is no indication that they were given “glorified” eternal bodies and that they ascended to heaven. Jesus performed resurrections of bodies back to physical life. Who did He resurrect into ETERNAL LIFE? I say NO ONE YET, and I believe scripture confirms this.

As far as Enoch not being included in that group, I don't see that. Read the whole chapter again and tell me if you see some separation between pre-Abraham servants of God and post-Abraham servants. I don't think that you will find promises of eternal life given anywhere in the O.T. but yet it was implied in the coming kingdom of God when Messiah's rule would come forth out of Zion (Jerusalem). As God promised them, they will return to live in the PROMISED LAND (after their resurrection).

Now, it COULD be possible that God has reserved Enoch (in some kind of suspended animation) to bring him back to earth as one of the two witnesses, where he will finally die. But the second witness is not likely to be Elijah because he DOES DEFINITELY appear back on earth years after he was 'taken up' into heaven. My guess is that it would be Moses. These are the two seen in the vision on the mount (the Transfiguration). Although scripture says that Moses died, his death was a bit of a mystery. No body was ever found and scripture says that all of his vitality still remained. When faced with vague or cryptic verses, we must be careful in forming any definite conclusions. Hence, I give you “COULD”.

[bic]

I can only speak from my experience so that is what I will do. I have had only ONE tongues experience, the second kind as listed by Nick; the kind experienced by those on the Day of Pentecost. It was in a United Pentecostal Church (one of the most POWERFUL churches in the world, I might add, speaking in terms of the Holy Spirit). Of course, I knew nothing of this church and their beliefs and it was only through supernatural means that I found myself within its walls.

The UPC believes that one MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit and the sign is that of speaking in tongues. They tend to want to 'coerce' those who have repented (at the altar) into speaking in tongues and work very hard towards this goal. For this reason, I suspect that many otherwise sincere individuals have faked speaking in tongues. Of course, in many other denominations, fake tongues is quite common, an attempt to show holiness. I could not do so, however, as it just isn't in my nature. I have NEVER felt compelled to 'fit in' or be a follower. I have, in fact, always been a lone wolf, a rebel, a trailblazer, an eccentric. A word I have heard a lot is “weird”. Another nicer word I have been called is “different”. Therefore, I'm right at home being a 'heretic'.

Nevertheless, there was no tongues for me at the altar (though perhaps a 'forced' stammering of lips was acheived). I felt a washed over feeling, as being cleansed, and felt better about myself. However, I left town and state the next day, to go back to work on the pipeline (and back to my old worldly ways). Bad (and strange) things happened and I found myself making a vow to God. I went back home and proceeded to go back to this church. I decided 'out of the blue' that I would do a three day total fast (highly recommended!) beginning on Thursday and ending after services on Sunday. I also put my name in for a 3 hour prayership at the church that ended just as the evening services were beginning. Basically, I was just trying to show God my sincerity in trying to live for Him. Suprisingly, the three day fast was easy (just a couple sips of water during that time) but the 3 hours of praying were impossible. I found myself constantly dozing off and not knowing who or what to pray for (I ran out after about five minutes).

Services began and the hymn books were opened for the first couple of songs. I sound worse than a frog with laryngitis so I tried to sing along SOFTLY. Then, they began to sing a song that was not in the hymnal (one everyone is supposed to know). I'm sure that everyone has experienced this where you listen and try to sing along guessing what the next words will be. At any rate, all of a sudden it was as if a dam had broken inside of me and words began to gush out of their own accord. I could best describe the feeling as an artesian well bubbling forth from within me. Equally amazing, I was singing in FRENCH! Now, I'm of French descent and had even taken a year of French in high school so I recognized the language, but I could hardly write a short simple sentence let alone speak one. But here I was singing words that I did not understand (I assume that they were the words to the song but I have no way of knowing). It was not the words that impressed me, however, but the indescribable joy that flowed over me. To this day, I have yet to experience this kind of joy ever again. How glorious a feeling, one that lingers vividly in my memory even this 30 some odd years later.

Has tongues ceased? NO WAY, NO HOW! They may have ceased for me, but that gift is just as much a promise from God NOW as it was in the beginning. If you never experience this incredible joy, you'll never know just how much joy God wants you to have.

Immediately after this event, I KNEW that I was saved! I KNEW that I was a child of God. He LITERALLY filled me up…to OVERFLOWING! God made a life-long believer out of me. Though I burn in hell for my wickedness, I could NEVER blaspheme the Holy Ghost. No matter what anyone else believes, I am a sure-fire TESTAMENT to the Lord…He lives and His fire is UNQUENCHABLE!

Concerning gifts of the Holy Ghost, I was given several. The scariest one was the DISCERNING OF SPIRITS. It was scary because I found myself KNOWING when someone was working for the Lord and when someone was working for the devil. I was the kind who never really wanted to JUDGE someone and yet now found myself able to do so, albeit unwillingly (or, at least, uneasily). To see someone standing at the altar, arms raised, pretending to pray for a potential convert who had heeded the altar call, and KNOWING that he was working AGAINST this person being filled with the Holy Ghost was, as I said, a very scary GIFT…and one not particularly desirable.

Of course, this gift has helped me make right decisions several times in my life. I thank God that He found me worthy to entrust this precious gift to me.

I also believe that I have been given the gifts of faith, wisdom, and knowledge. The last two are perhaps the most dangerous. When humility is required to serve the Lord, we must take care not to become 'puffed up' with too much knowledge or wisdom. I surely don't want to come off as a “know-it-all” and I will be the first to tell you that I DON'T (know it all) but when you have been given wisdom and/or knowledge it is hard just to ignore it. Solomon is someone I can relate to but I fear what the final fate of Solomon was: did too much wisdom cause him to stray from the Lord? I pray that Solomon was found worthy (though scripture remains unclear on this matter) because it gives me hope if he was. God forgave David his egregious sins so I suspect that if Solomon asked for forgiveness, he received it, as well.

I don't know that tongues are a requirement for being filled with God's Spirit but I know that they are DESIRABLE and I know why Paul wanted everyone else to experience them.

[bic]

Actually, I think that Is 1:18 is correct in stating that there are two separate judgments. Here is my understanding of the events to take place:

Before the return of Jesus, distressing times will come upon the earth and it and the people on it will be shaken to the core. As scripture states in Matthew 24, Jesus' return will spare (from extinction) the human race upon earth. Notice that there will be a lot of evil or ungodly people (the goats) still alive at His return because scripture (Mt:24:30) says that they will MOURN when they see Him coming. Since it is at His return when the chosen (both dead and alive) are rewarded (to co-rule with Christ during the millenial reign), this will also be the time of the separation of the two camps: the goats on the left and the sheep on the right. It is implicit that the sheep (in immortal bodies) shall be ruling over the goats (in mortal bodies). This is also explicitly spelled out in many other passages. This is the time when the Law shall come forth out of Zion; when God shall teach mankind HOW to live; when God will restore nature back to its original condition. All animals will be vegetarians. There will no longer be mosquitoes, ticks, or thorns. No war, no shedding of blood, no disease. The sad and disturbing part of all this is that humankind will STILL reject paradise in the end, preferring darkness over the light.

At any rate, the first 'Judgment” will be the 1st resurrection, where the elect will be rewarded as rulers and judges among the heathen still living upon the earth. However, I believe that when God restores all things during this 1,000 year reign, he will also restore man's ability to live a thousand years (as before and in sync with the millenium). I believe that the rest of mortal humankind will be judged by their actions (works) DURING this reign, culminating in the GWTJ. I am not sure if many of those who lived in the distant past (before the time of Jesus) shall be resurrected back into mortal bodies to learn of God's ways or not but it could surely be a possibility. Perhaps even some who have lived since the time of Jesus but never got the chance to learn of Him.

As far as resurrection is concerned, ONLY Jesus has been resurrected so far. EVERYONE else, in their order, AT HIS COMING. This includes Daniel, David, Moses, Job, and even Elijah and Enoch. The images of Elijah and Moses appearing with Jesus on the mountain were only VISIONS. Though it appears as if Enoch did not see death, Hebrews 11:13 asserts that he did, in fact, die. Verses 39, 40 explain why. Though it appears that Elijah was taken up to the third heaven, he was really only taken up into the first heaven. He appears (in scripture) several years AFTER this event, proving that he was STILL very much alive and living on earth (though in a different place). The 'disembodied spirits' of the saints that were seen by many when Jesus gave up the ghost were merely signs (indicating He truly was the Son of God) like the full solar eclipse and the thunder and lightnings and the earthquake and the tearing of the veil in the temple. There is no reason to believe that these saints were resurrected at that time, thereby making scripture a lie. For jot upon jot, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, this cannot be true.

God is not a respecter of persons and will treat each of His chosen ones equally. Remember the parable of the workers where those who worked all day received the same wages as those who just worked a few hours? This same principle applies here. Refer back to Hebrews 11:39-40 and read it one more time.

Nick: You're right that judgment means a lot more than just condemnation. It, in fact, means JUSTICE.

Good posts, all.

[bic]

Beautiful intro, Nick and a wonderful follow-up, t8. You both spoke very well indeed.

I have been receiving a “read the Bible in a year” mailing in my email that is in either the Living Translation or the Message Bible (I believe it's the first) and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are. It is wonderful to read some of the very difficult books such as Numbers, Leviticus, etc. in such an easy to understand format. However, everything I read must still be tested against the KJV before it can pass muster. I think it was Nick that said that the KJV is not a good version for scholarly study and I was kind of surprised by this comment. While I agree that one must keep a Greek/Hebrew lexicon ready in order to use it, it appears to me, for the most part, that it is quite a reliable translation.

May God continue to work the fringes of religion and society to keep the plain gospel truth of scripture alive and available to the vast majority of those who have unwittingly been deceived by the god of this earth. I thank God that this site exists to keep the spiritual fire alive. How delightful is the word of God and how blessed is His mercy.

[bic]

stroshow: It is easy to build an endless amount of false doctrines by using one or two (or even more) verses to 'prove' a point whilst ignoring many other verses which contradict said verses. For example:

Luke:14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Now, CLEARLY this verse says that if a man does not hate his whole family, he cannot be a disciple of Christ. How many people have justified hating their family and pretended that they were justified by God? More than I wish was true. Now this may seem to be a foolish example to you, but it isn't. There are many other false doctrines founded on just as flimsy of 'proof' verses. The ETERNAL TORMENT of sinners is one such example; the TRINITY is another.

My wife is Alice. Alice is my wife. Either way, Alice is a PERSON and wife is a THING. If I divorce Alice and get a new wife, Alice is still the same person Alice, but now I have a new thing as wife.

Did you ever notice how there is NEVER any mention of a PERSONAL NAME for THE Holy Spirit and IT is always preceded by a 'THE'? THE Holy Spirit and THE Comforter? Do we say THE Jesus or THE God? No, of course not, not anymore than we say THE stroshow or THE bic. It's because these are PERSONAL NAMES and THE Holy Spirit isn't.

Only in the gospel of John do we see the HS called a 'He'. This is obviously incorrect usage…it should be rendered 'it'. Do a search for every instance where Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is found. Notice carefully the usage. Look how in many cases it is used in a POSSESSIVE way, such as “the Spirit of God”. Now, you might say the WIFE of bic (a thing, beautiful though she may be) but you would NOT say the ALICE of bic (that same beautiful person).

Don't worry. I know that still you are not convinced. Let's try a little harder.

Love: We read about God's love for His Son and we read about Jesus' love for His Father and we read about both of their loves for us. Show me one scripture that speaks of Jesus or God's love for the Holy Spirit or where the Holy Spirit loves us or God or Jesus. If the Holy Spirit was an equal person of the godhead, 'he' would be equally loved, wouldn't 'he'?

Throne: Jesus has a throne (beside His Father's) and God has a throne. Where is the Holy Spirit's throne? Once again, if it was an equal person in some trinitarian godhead, it too would have a throne, wouldn't it?

Worship: Worship is offered to both God and Jesus but there is not one instance of worship being offered to the Holy Spirit. Have you ever wondered why?

Respect: Read EVERY salutation to the churches in ALL of the letters (epistles) of Paul and a STARTLING observation can be made. In EVERY instance, Paul mentions both Jesus and the Father but NOT ONCE does he mention the Holy Spirit! Now, if Paul knew the HS to be a third PERSON of some triune divinity, would he have so obviously neglected to mention 'his' name? ABSOLUTELY NOT! How could he be so DISRESPECTFUL as to completely IGNORE this “equal” member of the godhead.

Dear brother, after all of this, if you still feel COMPELLED to believe a man-made doctrine foisted upon innocent and devout believers, then I wonder what else I could say. Let me show you some of the epistles…the rest you'll have to read for yourself:

Rom:1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor:1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their’s and
our’s:
1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor:1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal:1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

This pattern repeats itself through Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. Paul DEFINITELY didn't place EQUAL importance to the HS as a DIETY. The only possible reason is because it is a THING and not a PERSON.

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I was wondering who you people belive the Holy Spirt is? Is he a person? is he gods spirit? Here are some examples of why i think he is a person.

Is it amazing that these very same verses SHOW me that the HS is an IT?

Acts 5:3, 4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Who did they lie to?

God!

Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to
tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have
buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Who did Ananias & Saphira tempt?

Holy Spirit.

No, once again, it was God.

We can blaspheme against the Spirit.

The RCC says that we can blasheme against the Church (a thing).

The Holy Spirit can talk,.

So can a tape recorder or even a book.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will
send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things
to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

If the HS was a person, why would God send it in Jesus' name and not its own? Notice, too, that just like a voice recorder, he will only echo the things that Jesus had already told them.

John 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you
into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Notice, once again, like a recorder, doesn't speak its own thoughts but only those of Christ (what it hears). Jesus is glorified and the HS merely relays what Jesus says through it. 'he' should be rendered 'it'.

Galatians 4
God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

Would the Fathers own spirit call out “abba, Father” to Himself? Think it through.

It's not the Father's Spirit that calls out “Abba, Father” it's Jesus' Spirit that does so. Read that again, modem mouth.

Is that enough?

[bic]

Papaw: Welcome to the board! I tend to believe everything you posted as the beliefs of Biblical Unitarians. Originally a member of the UPC (United Pentecostals), I agreed with much of what Herbert Armstrong (founder of the Worldwide Church of God) proffered as truth. Because most of these beliefs are in direct opposition to the doctrines supported by mainstream religion, those of us who believe this way are deemed heretics (as they always have) and the churches as cults. It is for this reason that we understand organized religion to be the apostate church of the Beast. This countefeit religion posing as Christianity has veered so far off the path that it would be unrecognizable to Jesus or the early church. Very little truth remains at all within these 'cloisters'. It appears that little has changed in the world since the time of Christ…the religious leaders are STILL hypocrites and snakes.

I hope that you weren't 'put off' by some of Nick's questions. He's a great guy who shares most of your beliefs (as do many here).

I hope that you will find (as I have) that there is much more truth revealed here than you will find at most 'Christian' sites. Stick around, join the discussions, and help to keep us straight.

[bic]

HI, liljon. Rest assured, I DID read those verses very carefully and I read the verses that you just posted above and I can say resolutely that STILL none of those verses say anything about Jesus being God. Let's look at the one which SEEMS to say that Jesus is the Father:

Isaiah:9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now, even though Jesus' name is not mentioned, it is reasonable to infer that this is indeed a reference to Jesus Christ. If you believe this, then we are in agreement. But read carefully that passage. Please note that NOWHERE does it say that He (the child, the son Jesus) IS any of those titles listed. What it DOES say is that “his name shall be called…”. Now you may not see the distinction (difference) in what you PERCEIVE that it says and what it ACTUALLY says, but I do.

Your understanding of the passage in Philipians has already been answered by Nick so I will skip that one. Nevertheless, it DOESN'T say that Jesus is God (or even equal with God).

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Bic you didn't read them very well …that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him [Lord Jesus] from the dead, you shall be saved.

Now, if God raised up the Lord Jesus, it is clear that they are two separate entities. So, if you give us that the Father and the Son ARE two distinct entities, then you are saying that God is NOT one. Is that what you are suggesting?

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Jesus is YHWH because we call on his name (1 cor 1:2)

No, liljon, we call on His name because He is the mediator between God and man:

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Notice how it says “the MAN Christ Jesus”, NOT God!

Is God a man? NO! MAN is the IMAGE of God. So, we read:

Hebrews:1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Jesus is the (express) IMAGE of God, therefore a MAN (actually, THE Man!).

It all seems pretty conclusive to me. How others can see it differently is beyond me. Also, note that He (Jesus) sits down on the right side of the Majesty (God), clearly showing that they are distinct personas.

Once again, I am not debating here the diety of Jesus. I am debating the false doctrine of the Trinity, which says that the HS, Jesus, and the Father are three separate but equal personas of the triune (3 in 1) God. He's three, but He's one, too. Thank God they cleared that up!

The one verse (among a few more just like it) that absolutely shows the relationship that existed between God and His Son at the time of creation is this one:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Do you notice the CLEAR distinction between God and His Christ Jesus? We exist FOR God but THROUGH Jesus and all of creation comes FROM God but THROUGH Jesus! Do you realize the implication of this verse? It is saying that God SPOKE (gave the command) and that His Son DID (obeyed His Father). This is why God said, “Let US make…”. They worked as a team, in tandem. God, the MASTER (boss), Jesus, the SERVANT (worker). Isn't it hard NOT to see this?

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Luke 23:43 You just can't say something is incorrect.

Even when it is? You must have had different teachers than I did. If there is no wrong, there's no right.

I'm not saying that scripture is wrong. I'm saying that people wrest scripture:

2 Peter:3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

I know that there are some who wrest (twist) scripture because they are tremendously evil (like their father, Satan). Others, however, and perhaps the majority, do so because of lack of knowledge and/or blindness, being led by the blind.

Nevertheless, in this world that we live in, sometimes light can be very blinding to those who are dwelling in the darkness, and that light may often be unwanted. Blesses are those who seek the light and prefer the light over the darkness. I would say that this characterizes almost everybody that frequents this site. May God's light shine into every heart and heal all that are broken and fill their lives with joy. Amen.

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Read Philipians 1:21-23 because it refutes soul sleeps

It really doesn't. It takes a lot of imagination to stretch one verse to refute dozens of other verses that say the contrary. Read all of the verses where death is called “sleeping” (even Jesus referred to death as sleep) and then postulate what Paul meant. Is it easy to misunderstand, or what?

liljon, may I ask you a personal question? Are you Catholic? Please don't be offended by me. I'm just curious and I am always looking for a cause and effect. I sure can be wrong, that's for sure. The good news is that I'm in good company.

[bic]

What the religious teachers won't tell you is that the curses pronounced in Malachi are not on the laity but rather on the clergy! It was the religious leaders themselves who had profaned the offerings. Start reading in Chapter 2 and notice that God is talking to the priests (2:1). Verse 3:3 refers to the “sons of Levi”, which is the priesthood. It's either ironic, amusing, or downright disgusting (depending on the spirit that is present within you when you become aware of this) that they have taken a passage that warns them of their shortcomings and turned it against their followers to extort money from them through fear and guilt. At the moment, I am shaking my head sadly and sighing. Do you think that they feel any fear or guilt for making merchandise of God? I have no desire to exchange places with them, that's for sure.

Tithing is DEFINITELY NOT a New Testament teaching. Generously giving from the heart, as t8 noted, IS. Tithing is WORKS; Giving is GRACE.

The ONLY reason for a preacher (or church) to preach tithing is for financial reasons. The take will consistently be more if the congregation gives 10% of their income, as opposed to what the Holy Spirit leads them to give (which, for MOST churches, would be ZILCH). The ONLY ones prospering in the 'Prosperity Churches' are those standing behind the pulpits exhorting (or is that extorting?) EVERYONE ELSE to give, even that which they don't even have (such as using credit cards).

Feel moved to help? Don't be duped into giving money to churches or pastors using the money for material things (mostly for themselves). Look around in your own neighborhood and see just how many needy people there are right in your own 'backyard'. I, unlike t8's advice, don't worry what they will spend the money on (judge the person's worthiness). However, if I can pay the crackhead's water bill instead of giving him/her potential crack money, I will prudently do so. Still, whether the drunkard will buy food or drink does not concern me…I let God work his heart. We must be careful to NOT be judgmental, yet we do need to exercise some discernment…let your conscience be your guide.

[bic]

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…Enki & Enlil (Sumerian deities)…

Enki knew Enlil and begat Elavil…that's what I heard.

[bic]

Good post, Ramblinrose!

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But the truth remains Jesus is God Zechriah 14 proves it…Zechariah 14 is not alone also Romans 10, John 1, 1 Cor 1, and Isaiah 7,9,40,and 66.

Well, liljon, I read EVERY ONE of those listed chapters and NOT ONE of them proved that Jesus was God. In fact, they tended to prove the VERY OPPOSITE…that Jesus is NOT God!

How on earth did you ever arrive at such a conclusion? Surely you have been indoctrinated by others to the point that you cannot understand the plain text which you read. Would you like to attempt to explain your conclusions?

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Jesus is Immnauel God with us. The Father (God) sent the son (God) into the world.

I have a website called, “Godiswith.us“. Does this make my website 'God'? I don't think so.

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Who was thomas' God? Jesus John 20:28

If I called you God, would that make you God?

Who did Peter say Jesus was? He must have got it right because Jesus gave him the keys of the kingdom of heaven (and told him that His Father in heaven revealed it to him) It's Matthew 16:15-20. Peter said Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God”.

I'm guessing that we are bogged down in semantics. In reality, Jesus, as the Son of God, is a god, per se, just as we will all be gods, as children of God. However, for clarity, when we say God, we are referring to the Creator God, the Father of ALL things (and people), INCLUDING Jesus. He is ONE, and there is no OTHER.

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Being sent doesn't necessarily make someone subordinate.

Perhaps not, but Jesus is clearly subordinate to His Father:

1 Cor:15:27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

I bolded the “H's” in front of all the pronouns that I think refer to the Father. If you get a different rendering, please let me know.

Regardless, scripture is clear that Jesus is subordinate to His Father (as sons usually are subordinate to their fathers), as in, “Not my will, but your will”.

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Act 20:26-27. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. “All the counsel of God.”  That seems pretty comprehensive to me.

ALL refers to YOU and not COUNSEL. It reads:

…”to declare unto you all…” “…the counsel of God…”.

These type of errors are all to common among men who would exact meanings from scripture which just aren't there. Another famous mistake involves misplacing a comma and thereby forming a whole different (and false) doctrine:

Correct: Luke:23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Truthfully, I tell you To day, you shall be with me in paradise.

Incorrect: Luke:23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Truthfully, I tell you,To day you shall be with me in paradise.  

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Again: do you know anybody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did, like raising people from the dead curing incurable diseases? Because that's the very least I'll need before I can believe that the Holy Spirit gifts are still available today.

God has shown me practically every gift of the Holy Spirit. I experienced tongues (my experience would never convince you, but it did me, as it would you, if you experienced it for yourself), the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, and discerning of spirits. I have heard tongues and interpretation, and I have seen healings, as well as experienced a healing myself and miracles galore. The problem with miracles is that they can usually be 'explained away' as coincidences, good luck, or just scientific anomalies. Only the gift of prophecy has not been revealed to me. I have heard what I perceived to be prophecy but nothing fulfilled and therefore proved to me.

Nevertheless, if it wasn't for God, I would have been killed on at least six occasions, though there are many more than that. I'm not even going to count all of the totalled-out accidents (eight that I can remember offhand) that I have been in and walked away basically unscathed. Praise God for His love and mercy!

At any rate, with all of the close brushes with death that I have had (and what a testimony it is!), God has convinced me of His everlasting presence and has made me very thankful for the hedge that He has placed around me. Why, I really don't know. If He loves me and finds worth in me, there's hope for everybody, of that I'm sure.

Evangelion: The Holy Ghost is alive and well, its POWER undiluted, and expereinced by thousands (if not millions or even billions) of people who have now become BELIEVERS. May you one day experience this life-altering force of God.

[Author]

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