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[barley]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,15:00)

Jesus is said to be both the Root AND the Branch of David.  Here's are the scriptures: Isaiah 11:10 NIV In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. Romans 15:12 NIV And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.” Revelation 5:5 NIV Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” Revelation 22:16 NIV “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” What does this mean?  We know Jesus is the Branch, or “offspring” of David according to the flesh, but in what sense is Jesus the Root of David or Jesse (David's father)? Doesn't this clearly imply that Jesus was before David? peace and love, mike

Mike,

Not at all.

Although it is possible, it does not fit with other scriptures such as I Peter 1:20  Jesus Christ was foreknown.

” Who verily was foreordained [proginosko – foreknown]  before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

This one verse alone eliminates any real possibility that Jesus pre existed as a living entity.

God foreknew Jesus Christ

[barley]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2011,05:27)

Hi All, I have pondered this hard and long.  I have been scoffed at and reminded that Adam is said to be the first man ever, and that Eve is the mother of all living. But it never set well with me that when Cain was banished, he was afraid that “others” would kill him; and so God put a sign on him so the “others” wouldn't bother him. WHO WERE THESE “OTHERS”?   And from where did Cain obtain a wife after being banished?   People are quick to point out that not every child of Adam and Eve were mentioned by name, so they may have had hundreds of children by the time Cain murdered Abel.  But WHY were these already willingly living in the land of Nod, since it seemed such a bad punishment for Cain to be sent to that place?   And how does that add up to Eve saying this in 4:25:  “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” That seems to be an odd statement if the couple already had hundreds of unmentioned children. And I've wondered why the story of man's creation is told once in Genesis 1, and then again, mentioning Adam and Eve, in Genesis 2. I've always thought in my own mind that these “men” created on the sixth day were more like the cavemen of old.  And Adam represented the first man in which God placed His own Spirit. Any comments? mike

Adam and Eve were the first man and woman.

Cain was their first born and Abel the second born.

Seth was the third born.

A and E must have had many other children besides.

Cain and Seth had to have had sisters to marry.

That would not be dangerous at that point seeing that the genetics were yet quite pure.

After all Eve was made from Adam. Their genetics must have been very close, but pure.

oatmeal

[barley]

Quote (Colter @ Mar. 16 2013,03:51)

Luke 1:26-27 – Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 1)Was Gabriel a new creation in this world  or did he pre-exist with God in heaven? 2) If Jesus was simply a new creation in time from Gods non-personified word-plan in the beginning, did he convert back into a non-personified word-plan when he returned to the right hand of the Father in heaven? Colter

Did Gabriel exist before he existed?

Did I exist before I existed?

[barley]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 26 2010,22:07)

So is god the author of confusion or not? Stuart

God is not the author of confusion,

Never was and never will be

however He does not overstep man's free will, so if man wishes to confuse himself, that is his choice.

God did not instigate the confusion in Babel.

Man brought it upon themselves.

So, if a man goes to the Grand Canyon and jumps off a cliff into the canyon and dies, in one sense God caused that but only in the sense that God designed and implemented gravity.

However, in a direct sense, that man chose to cause his own death.

Gravity was not the cause, the man's bad action did.

God was not the cause even though gravity is God's doing, the instigator, the man was.

barley

[barley]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Feb. 26 2010,06:23)

Just curious, but do Christians actually agree on anything? I have observed over the course of my bible studies that for every doctrine there seems to be two opposing camps within Christianity, and both sides claim biblical support.  So, my question is: Can you name one belief that is unique to Christianity with which every professed Christian agrees?

Is there anything all Christians agree on?

How could anyone document that?

Since that would impossible to do, seeing you would have to interview every Christian in the entire world to find out, that is rather difficult question to answer.

It would seem reasonable since the name Christian has Christ in it, that all Christians believe in Christ.

All Christians it would seem believe in God.

barley

[barley]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 13 2012,17:20)

Hi Everyone, Trinity and non-Trinity, can both views be correct? Me and David have been discussing if this is possible. I say it is not only possible, but true as well. It can be compared to a “Paradox”. Instead of arguing past misconceptions, are both sides now willing to look at the evidence that I will produce concerning this? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Reason for edit: I added the title into the post.

No, both cannot be right.

They are contradictory.

Neither is it question of view point. As in the fable of five blind men touching a different part of an elephant and describing what they perceive.

See I Timothy 2:4-5

We are to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, then MAN Christ Jesus.

God is God

Men are men

the mediator between God and men is THE MAN Christ Jesus

That leaves no room for Jesus to be God.

The word “god” being a title, not a name, does leave room for there being other gods besides the Creator/Lord/Almighty/most high God

The word “god” referring to some one superior or of prominence or authority.

The God told Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharoah.

Thus Moses was a god, but not “The God”

Sarah called Abraham “lord” or kurios, as I Peter 3:6 states, so in that use of kurios, Sarah acknowledged Abe to be in charge. but that does not make Abe to be “the Lord (kurios) God”, but simply one in authority, some one to respected.

Likewise with Hebrews 1:8 “Thy throne, O god, is forever…”

“The God” calls His son “god”

Why not? why would not the Father call His son after His own name.

Thus illustrating that the trinitarian doctrine and the one God doctrine are not compatible whatsoever.

barley

[barley]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 05 2012,01:50)

barley…………Good to see you back, Hope things are going well for you brother, missed you. peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

Thanks!

[barley]

Quote (david @ Feb. 12 2012,07:29)

The trinitarian and non-trinitarian views are both correct. It can be compared to the understanding of a Paradox. I have many books on paradox's.  I am just wondering what others think of Ed's statement that he made on Feb 12th in the “Beware of Leaven” thread.   Comments?

What do you call two doctors?

a paradox!

[barley]

Quote (Richtuner @ Nov. 20 2012,02:24)

My desire is to know what others believe about this scripture One Lord? Who? One Faith? Whose? One Baptism? Only one. The bible in Heb. states that there is a “doctrine of baptisms”, so which one?

One Lord is the one LORD GOD, but since His son is lord because God made him both lord and anointed, it is also reference to Jesus Christ as the son of God. Acts 2:36

Contradiction? No, not really God is above all including Jesus Christ, after all Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God, at the right hand of the throne of God, not in God's throne.

Jesus Christ is the way to the Father, thus, the lord Jesus the anointed is necessary to include One Lord.

One Lord God, one lord Jesus the anointed.

One faith? Faith/pistis can be either believing or that which God imparts to us as the measure of faith. Romans 12:3

We all have that same measure of faith which God imparted to us, no one was given more, no one was given less. The apostle Paul did not receive more than anyone else. What we do with this measure of faith is our decision. Paul used it well.

One baptism?

We are baptized in the name of the lord Jesus, the anointed one.

Acts 2:38

It does not include water and it is not the baptism of the holy spirit.

It does include the gift of the holy spirit from the Holy Spirit/God, but it is bigger than that. It includes all that Jesus Christ accomplished for us.

It includes not only holy spirit but incorruptible seed, the gift of eternal life, the gift of righteousness, the gift of salvation, our completeness in Christ and so on.

It is far bigger and greater than just holy spirit. It is everything that God had Jesus Christ earn for us.

barley

[barley]

Quote (Richtuner @ Nov. 19 2012,06:09)

I am surprised to find no one is willing to talk abut this scripture. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Are they connected? This will identify who and what you believe about Jesus. And usually identify your denomination.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, are they connected?

Yes, of course they are connected.

It is God's word, scripture, of which God is the only author.

Any other questions?

[barley]

Quote (Richtuner @ Nov. 16 2012,10:47)

Just before I ask this question I would like to say that having scoured through this forum I am amassed at the answers to a lot of question and debates. If I used the logic that some use, I could remind people that Judas sinned when  he sold Jesus out and he went out and hanged himself, then go to the scripture where Jesus said “go and do ye likewise”. That would eliminate all of us. If you think that is stupidity  gone to seed you would be right. So lets think about this scripture before you answer. Eph_4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism

No question yet.

[barley]

Quote (jammin @ Feb. 01 2012,14:46)

anyone from the anti christ group willing to answer this topic?

What no trinitarians replying to your post?

Don't you mean who and/or what is the word?

Scripture is God's word.

God is the word

Jesus Christ is the word.

To the extent we love God by living according to God's word, we are the word.

barley

[barley]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 03 2012,15:33)

What is worshipping God really mean. Most christians dont even know what worshipping God means. How do we worship God; is it just by reading the gospels,and going to church and singing nice tunes,and listening to nice preachings,and giving some money. We can not buy our way to heaven,but if someone needs help ,we must be ready to help,in anyway. The most popular church in america is the lakewood church. why is it so? Because this man preaches nothing but words of blessings and prosperity,and good days ahead,and enjoying everyday life.This is the opposite to tribulations. This is exactly what Jesus said; You follow me because your belly are filled with the loaves,not because of the miracles. Christians worship God for his blessings,and healings. Showing the true nature of selfishness. And they think that this is how we worship God. This kind of worship has no meaning to God ,for it is all wasted. The true worshippers dont just ask, and ask and take,but also must give. So what is it that we can give God? A true worshipper is very hungry spiritually in wanting to know their Father,by seeking him and desperate to find him and to know him more and more. Finding out how he does things and why he does things and for what purpose. A true worshipper labours hard to get to the first resurrection,he does not have that lay back kind of attitude concerning the scriptures. And say to him self; oh,God knows,and he will provide,he understands. The so called born again say that they are saved and secured,there is nothing to do,Christ has done it all for us on the cross.All served on a platter,just believe is enough. A genuine God loving person shows interest in what God has to say in all the bible,not just part. He spends his/her time seeking,and make the word of God his spiritual diet. Some seek seek but for the wrong reasons. Not because of the love for God,but for their own gain. We must learn to give God also, not just learn to receive. Learn, so You can teach and be fruitful,and lead others to God. And God will have you as his faithful servant. To be a true chistian is suffering in this world,because he is not part of this world and therefore hated by this world. And this is the cross that we have to carry,sometimes abused,and mocked. The more knowledge the more sorrows. To seek for abundant life now is not the idea,but suffering for the Lord.All the apostles did suffer,Jesus did suffer. What ever we do,do it for God,in pleasure and in sufferings. wakeup.

True worship is to worship in spirit and in truth John 4:24

This requires that we use the spirit that gave to us of Him.

I John 4:13

Speaking by the spirit of God is true worship. Just like the apostles did on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:4

True worship via the spirit is speaking in tongues.

Awesome!

[barley]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2012,06:14)

Good stuff B.

Nick,

Thanks.

Vito

[barley]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2012,06:26)

Hi B, Of course a word is not a thought or a plan but an expression of a thought of plan. “the word has gone forth” Jesus Christ proceeded forth AND came from God.

Indeed, God's thoughts are expressed in words among other things.

God's word was made flesh.

[barley]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,07:42)

Hi All The accusation that the Trinity is not found in scriptures is false and though the word “Trinity” is not found in scriptures the concept is. ATs, (Anti-Trinitarians) love to call on this fallacy in order to discredit the truth found in the scriptures concerning the Trinitarian view. The Trinitarians believe that the view is scriptural and is based on the acceptance of the Holy Scriptures as a whole therefore accepting the whole council of God. Most ATs believe in a Trinity whether they admit it or not. If you ask them if they believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and are they separate in person or being, they will claim yes. The difference is they do not believe that they all share the same attributes as God; even though there is no evidence that there is any difference in the three in their respective nature or ontology. Those who claim the Holy Spirit is the Father, have a long uphill climb Biblically to prove their theory based on the number of scriptures mentioning their separate identities. Matthew  28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: KJV Go therefore* and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, NKJV Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.  NLT Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in* the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, NIV Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, NASB Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, NWT The above translations all render Matt 28:19 the same. As far as I can tell all the translations on BGW.com and BLB.org translate it the same way. Even the NWT which is notably a version apposed to the Trinity and also known for its obvious biased paraphrase of the Greek text, translates it the same. It has been claimed that Eusebius of Caesarea, c. 263–339 had an original copy of Matthew which did not contain the verse. However there is no such evidence and can only be considered as a fabrication made by the ATs. It would also contradict the fact that Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea… We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching.21 (emphasis mine) Source Not to mention that many Church Fathers quoted the verse like Ignatius (c. 35–107), Irenaeus (c. 130–200), Tertullian (c. 160–225) to mention a few. Others alluded to the three. There is overwhelming evidence that proves that Matthew 28:19 is authentic including the fact it is found in every extant Greek Biblical manuscript… It is not uncommon to hear the notion that the tripartite phrase in Matthew 28:19 is suspect on text critical grounds, but when one consults the data itself, such claims are entirely unfounded. Every extant Greek biblical manuscript that contains this verse of Matthew has the tripartite phrase.13 One would expect that if, indeed, Matthew’s original (whether one presumes a Greek or Hebrew original, or both) did not include the tripartite phrase, that at least some early witnesses to this original would have remained. But not one single witness, early or late, gives evidence that 28:19 ever existed without the tripartite phrase. When we look at the versions the same situation obtains. The Syriac Peshitta (in all of its extant witnesses), the Vulgate, the Coptic, the Slovak versions—all have the tripartite phrase. Plummer’s conclusion is therefore warranted: It is incredible that an interpolation of this character can have been made in the text of Mt. without leaving a trace of its unauthenticity in a single MS. or Version. The evidence for its genuineness is overwhelming.14 (Emphasis mine)  Source As if that is not enough damaging evidence against the ATs, the nail in the coffin is the Didache contains the tripartite phrase.. Ploughman, apparently following F. C. Conybeare, has questioned the authenticity of Matthew 28:19, but most scholars of New Testament textual criticism accept the authenticity of the passage, since “there are no variant manuscripts regarding the formula, and the extant form of the passage is attested in the Didache[72] and other patristic works of the first and second centuries: Ignatius,[73] Tertullian,[74] Hippolytus,[75] Cyprian,[76] and Gregory Thaumaturgus”. ‘Wikipedia Though the date of the Didache is debated, most scholars would put it between 90 and 120 CE with some suggesting an even earlier date. The Trinity is here to stay, and Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity. Unfortunately for the ATs the evidence overwhelmingly support the Holy Scriptures as a Trinitarian book, even if they do not believe the three are “One”, they must accept this Bible truth or get their white out and blot out the verse in their Christology. Anyone care to comment? Blessings WJ

If those words were authentic, why is there not any record in the scriptures of the first century believers carrying out those words?

In Acts 2 and beyond we see baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ.

In the epistles we see doing all in the name of the lord Jesus.

Not one instance of a triune baptism.

Evidently, some early church fathers quoted Matthew 18:19 without the trinitarian formula in their quote.  They must have had manuscripts which predated ours that did not have the “trinity come lately” formula in it.

Those trinitarian words are basically a forgery.

barley

[barley]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,23:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,16:32) Jammin, Your lack of knowledge is self evident in the asking of the question since Christ is translated as Anointed.  David was a Christ as were other kings and priests.  God is not anointed as there is no one to anoint him as he is the one true God. So the basic question is absurd. The lesson of 1 John 5:20 is that a believer is in Jesus through the Saintly Spirit and in Yahweh by that same Spirit.  It is only through the spirit of Jesus, whom was tempted as is common to man but without sin, that Yahweh can be in anyone.  That is why Jesus is the way. Have you not heard these things before. the topic here is that christ is the true GOD in 1 john 5.20 but mike does not believe it. so if you believe that christ is not the true GOD in 1 john 5.20 then you may help mike to prove your opinion. stick to the topic

Jesus Christ is not the true God,

Jesus Christ is the son of the true God.

The book of John is about fellowship.

This is the true God, that we have fellowship with the Father and with son Jesus Christ and with our fellow believers.

I John 1:3-5 “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

That is what what the true God is all about.

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

“This” the understanding, that we can and should seek fellowship with God and his son and our fellow believers.

“This” understanding is what the true God is all about.

“This” fellowship is all about love and light and walking in love and light.

“This” is all possible because of what God did in Christ Jesus.

[barley]

Quote (jammin @ Feb. 01 2012,14:46)

anyone from the anti christ group willing to answer this topic?

You mean besides yourself?  How about a reply from the believers of God?

In the beginning God.

Genesis 1:1

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

In the beginning the word.

John 1:1

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Most certainly, God is the word.

What does “word” logos mean?

In general, it simply means a message, not emphasizing the actual words used, but the thought behind the words.

For example below are two examples of the same thought, but entirely different words are used.

1.  God will never leave us or forsake us.

2.  God is always with us.

One is stated in the negative,  the other is stated in the positive, but the thought is the same.

Where did God's thoughts originate from?

1.  a ghost writer

2.  He was schooled by his elders and his parents and grand parents and teachers and playmates

3.  God  

If you chose “3” you are correct!

Romans 11:33-36

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. “

So what was on God's mind that He created the heavens and the earth?

He was preparing for mankind.  

He wanted to fellowship.  I John 1:3

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

Did God have fellowship with mankind?

Yes, with Adam and Eve He did.

But A and E erred.

Did God know they would err?

Yes, God has foreknowledge.

God already knew and already had thought this through.

He already had a plan for man's redemption.

Genesis 3:15 is the announcement of that plan.

Did that plan, his thoughts, immediately come to pass?

No, it took centuries before a woman would believe to carry that seed.

Mary was that woman.

Mary believed God's word and God was able to make his thoughts come to pass.  God's thoughts, his words, his plans for man's redemption became flesh.

Who is God's plan for redemption?

Jesus Christ.

God had planned for Jesus Christ even before Genesis 1:1.  God had foreknowledge.  Of course he did.

Genesis 3:15 was not an eleventh hour plan.  God already had the plan.

Jesus Christ is that plan made flesh..  His word his thoughts became flesh.

Where do we read of that plan?  In God's word, the logos, the scripture.

Did God foreknow scripture? Sure, God had foreknowledge.

Did your Bible exist before Genesis 1:1?

Of course not.  But the content, every word, every jot and tittle of God's word was already in God's mind.  God has foreknowledge.

Was Jesus Christ in existence before Genesis 1:1?

No, but God already knew that Jesus Christ would redeem man, because God had a successful plan already in place.

How could God be sure it would work?  God is wise, and He has foreknowledge.

And even though Jesus Christ did not exist until Matthew 1:18,

God trusts in His own ability to bring His words, His logos, to pass.

Romans 4:17

“(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. ”  

So God's words were with God in the beginning.

His written word was already in God's mind before the first Prophet to receive and write down God's word showed up.

And Jesus Christ, God's word, His plan for man's redemption was in God's foreknowledge before Genesis 1:1

God is the master planner.

He does not fail.

People fail.

God does not fail.

The word that was with God was His words that would eventually be spoken and/or written down and and the word Jesus Christ the man that would carry out God's word was already in God's foreknowledge.

That is why Jesus Christ could talk about the glory that he had with the Father from the beginning.

God had already had it all planned out.

God created the heavens and the earth by Jesus Christ.

He planned His creation to accommodate Jesus Christ's God given assignment, to redeem mankind.

God created the heavens and earth not so we could have i phones but so that Jesus Christ could be blessed and successful.

And not overstep man's free will or be unjust to Himself, mankind or the Devil.

God legally redeemed mankind.  He planned it that way from the beginning, actually from before the beginning.

That is what God is all about.

Love.

Light

Spirit

How awesome a God that He had us in mind way back then.

Ephesians 1:4

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

[barley]

Quote (barley @ Mar. 24 2012,11:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 24 2012,06:20) Hi Barley, I see the issue. Perhaps you should add a thread in the books section? Perhaps. barley

Of course there are other scholars who have looked into the same need and have come up with useful books.

Freeman is one of them.

[barley]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 24 2012,06:20)

Hi Barley, I see the issue. Perhaps you should add a thread in the books section?

Perhaps.

barley

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