Ye are gods?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2011,18:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,11:53) Mike, Quote Kathi, is your last “Theos” meant to be plural?  Because you are saying that “both the Father and the Son are 'MY' GODS, right? It is correct either way…… So for YOU, “it is correct” to say “both the Father and the Son are 'MY' GODS”?

Mike,
That was deceitful as to how you quoted me. You left off my explanation of the first part of the sentence. That took more effort than just quoting me. Deceptive tactic, imo. I will bump the post where it includes the whole thought. Is it your desire to distort and confuse?

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,12:53)

Mike, Quote Kathi, is your last “Theos” meant to be plural?  Because you are saying that “both the Father and the Son are 'MY' GODS, right? It is correct either way…either to express two separate persons who are each a God or two separate persons who are interdependently relating as one God.

Bump for clarification and to correct Mike's poor quoting attempt.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2011,18:40)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,11:49) Mike, Quote And “begotten” means “brought into existence by a father”, Kathi.  So while I agree that Jesus is the highest of the “many gods and many lords” in existence (NEXT TO the Father, of course), “begotten” is a BIG distinction BETWEEN him and our only UNBEGOTTEN God, the Father. Can 'begotten' mean to 'bring forth?' Yes Kathi.  Strong says:  “bring forth (as in child birth)”. Kathi, WHY?  Why do you try SOOOOOO hard to change or twist what the scriptures clearly teach us?  Jesus was begotten and THEREBY became the SON of God.  Now………….what exactly is so hard about this?  BECAUSE OF his begetting, he BECAME God's SON.  (Psalm 2:7)  Why would you not just accept the CLARITY of this fact?  Why try to imagine some other meaning of the begetting of Jesus when the end result of him becoming the Son of God is right there in the same exact verse?

Mike,
Did your son become a son only after child birth? What was he for the nine months prior to it? Someone else's son? A daughter? An 'it?' I had four sons and they were my sons for months before they were begotten/brought forth.

When will you get that the bring forth did not make the Son a Son? He was a Son for the whole time that He was within the Father, before He was begotten from the Father.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2011,16:36)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,14:11) Thanks guys but I did know that theos doesn't always mean God.  Of course all other 'theos' were not begotten that way…as theos, just the only Begotten God, and all others mentioned as 'theos/elohim' didn't have divine nature like HE was born with aside from His Father.  And also, all other 'theos' mentioned, aside from the Father, did not create the heavens and the earth.  So, excuse me while I cannot tolerate it when one ignores these things and puts Him closer to the all other designated theos than one like the Father.  The others were designated that way for earthly temporary assignment because they were a judge or magistrate or prophet or because they were exalted wrongly by man or themselves, i.e. satan. That doesn't make him YHWH Kathi. Surely someone had to be first after God, and that is who Jesus is. He is not that which he came from. We obviously realise Jesus importance regarding being first and God creating all things through him. But we don't take it beyond the truth that there is one God the Father. No, we place the son in his rightful place as one who is at the right hand of God, and who is the true image of God. We don't need to justify our belief by adding something like, 'there is one God the Father and the Son'. For some reason something compels you to though. But I will say this, it is interesting to see the thought processes of one who departs from the truth that there is one God the Father. It is like watching development of the Trinity doctrine, but instead of centuries it has been a matter of months and thus not only observable, but a demonstration of how flawed a person's doctrine can get when they decide to depart scripture and take matters into their own hands, as happened many centuries ago. This process of departure is no always this observable. Here we have it all in writing and in a short time frame.

Quote

That doesn't make him YHWH Kathi.

This shows you that He was/is YHWH:
Psalms 102
19For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth,

20To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free those who were doomed to death,

21That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,

22When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

23He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.

24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.

25“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

27“But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.

Heb 1
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

Quote

Surely someone had to be first after God, and that is who Jesus is. He is not that which he came from.

He is the same type of being as that which He came out from but He is not the same person from which He came out from.

That even applies to creatures, so that shouldn't be so hard to grasp.

You seem to want to make Him a different type of being as that which He came out from.

Also, if you want to consider the bringing forth as a first work of the Father, fine but that in no way means it was a work of creation. It is simply a work of birthing THE offspring which was already there to begin with.

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2011,21:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2011,18:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,11:53) Mike, Quote Kathi, is your last “Theos” meant to be plural?  Because you are saying that “both the Father and the Son are 'MY' GODS, right? It is correct either way…… So for YOU, “it is correct” to say “both the Father and the Son are 'MY' GODS”? Mike, That was deceitful as to how you quoted me.  You left off my explanation of the first part of the sentence.  That took more effort than just quoting me.  Deceptive tactic, imo.  I will bump the post where it includes the whole thought.  Is it your desire to distort and confuse? Kathi

I will continue to say it the way I did until you finally get enough GUTS to answer me DIRECTLY.  I have asked and asked if you worship TWO, COMPLETELY SEPARATE GODS, as in “God the Father” and “God the Son”.  You have been balking at my attempts to get a DIRECT answer.  So because of that, I have to do what I did in that post you're whining about.

Kathi, do you worship ONE God made up of more than one person, like the Trinitarians?

Or do you worship TWO separate Gods?

(I don't need all the explanation of Jehovah this and unity that.  JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION DIRECTLY PLEASE.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2011,22:10)

Heb 1 8But of the Son He says,         “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,         AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;         THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU         WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

First of all, the Hebrew and Greek words of this scripture could just as faithfully be translated as “God is your throne forever”.

Secondly, why do the “Jesus is God” people like to hype verse 8 and downplay verse 9 as if it doesn't exist?  Kathi, God Almighty does NOT have a God of His own.  The person in this scripture DOES have a God of his own that PLACED him above his peers.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2011,21:07)

Mike, Did your son become a son only after child birth?

Kathi, at whatever stage in my son's development you want to say he became my son, that is the same time that he was begotten by me.  And before he was my son, he did not exist.  No son has always been, Kathi.  

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2011,21:07)

He was a Son for the whole time that He was within the Father, before He was begotten from the Father.

Never does “firstborn” or “begotten” refer to someone who has always existed.  That reasoning is simply ludicrous and you have ZERO scriptural support for this claim of yours.

I find it absolutely BIZZARE that you would speak to me about this nonsense as though I'm some kind of an idiot for not “getting it”.  You act as if this “son WITHIN the Father” theory is so natural and logical that one would have to be an idiot NOT to “get it”.  

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