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chosenone
That is correct, and I have added nothing; have you not read Rev. 20:9? The fire from heaven devoured them, what will be left is ashes, Mal. 4:3.
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2009,17:33) Context CO.
The words of 1Cor are to the saved not the heathen masses.
NH.
True, the words are for the saved, but in context, is spoken ABOUT all.
You must try and understand WHAT is said, and to whom it is refering to, not just TO whom it was said.
You seem to misunderstand meaning within context, strive to understand, it will benefit you greatly.Blessings.
Quote (Cindy @ April 23 2009,16:02) chosenone That is correct, and I have added nothing; have you not read Rev. 20:9? The fire from heaven devoured them, what will be left is ashes, Mal. 4:3.
Georg
Georg.
In 1Cor.15:28 “God will be All in all”. Your reply added “in all that are saved”.
Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ April 23 2009,16:12) Quote (Cindy @ April 23 2009,16:02) chosenone That is correct, and I have added nothing; have you not read Rev. 20:9? The fire from heaven devoured them, what will be left is ashes, Mal. 4:3.
Georg
Georg.
In 1Cor.15:28 “God will be All in all”. Your reply added “in all that are saved”.Blessings.
Yes, those that were not burned up are all that are saved; you don't consider the once that are ashes, saved, do you?Georg
the biblical doctrine is not annhilationism or universalism… but is rather that the unsaved lost experience eternal conscious torture…
1 Corinthians 15:53-54 (ESV) [53] For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. [54] When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Now if all men put on the imperishable, and Paul is speaking of all men here as is shown in 1 Corinthians 15:42 (So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. ESV) not just the saved, then manifestly unbelievers put on that which is imperishable as well… and if what they become is imperishable, then it cannot by definition, perish, cease to exist, become only ashes etc etc etc… but rather these unbelievers experience an eternity of the wrath of God, just as the saved experience an eternity of the joy of fellowship of God and other believers. And that both unbelievers and believers experience this resurrection from the dead is shown here: Acts 24:15 (ESV) having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.”
So just the devil and his angels will be thrown into the firs and tormented “forever and ever”, so too will unbelievers…
Revelation 20:10 (ESV) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:9-11 (ESV) [9] And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”If these unbelievers were reduced to nothing…. to ashes etc… then their smoke which symbolizes their punishment, would not last “forever and ever”, their torment would not last “day and night”.
blessings,
kenE……..One question, since the Word used for eternity is really age, Which means a period of time, and not forever, could it be just for a time they are punished then. But not for ever. Torment really a form of intense Judgments? The smoke of their torment is not real smoke but the lessons learned by the torments they go through and that will be an everlasting lesson for all creation for ever. But the only one mentioned as being destroyed for ever and ever is the Devil and the Beast and no one has proved to me that these are actual beings yet.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………….gene
G,
So you would contradict the teachings of Jesus in mt 25 and adapt it that all be saved?
The teachings of Jesus about the devil also seem to have been put aside.
Instead it is all a big lesson for creation in your doctrine?Gene wrote:
Quote One question, since the Word used for eternity is really age
Actually there is more that one word rendered eternity in the King James version. “Aion” can be rendered “age” but in some contexts rendered eternity probably means “indeterminate length of time”.
There is also “Aionios” seems to mean without beginning or end and possible could be extended to mean with an indeterminate beginning and end.
Last is “Aidios” which my source states means “eternal” and “everlasting”
Kerwin…….I heard a lecture on the word Aion, before it was quite a in depth explanation and in every case the word only meant a time period and not eternal , it was a quite in depth study, and evidently the Greeks had no word for eternal except to say age into the age or something like that. I am not totally sure though , but logically speaking why would GOD eternally torture some one, it rally doesn't make much since, nor match His Character either. IMO
love and peace to you…………………..gene
Kerwin……….Mar 9: 46-49……> explains this quite well IMO> as long as the (WORM) doesn't Die neither will the Fire be quenched. That applies to us all. Our Worn is our own stubborn Wills and if it is not put to death and GOD'S will done in ALL then intense judgments will not cease, unless we humbles ourselves and put our wills to death with Christ. Their worms (WILLS) dies not and (or so) the Fire (intense Judgments) does not cease or is not quenched. But those who believe in GOD the FATHER and in Jesus and keep the FATHERS WORDS, Have passed from Judgment to Life. All who Truly believe in the FATHER and The SON have put their worm to death. But we all are still salted with FIRE (Intense Judgments) Now. For the Father scourges every Son He accepts. IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………………gene
Isaiah 46:10-11
10. Telling from the begining, the hereafter,
And from aforetime, what has not yet been done.
Saying, All My counsel shall be confirmed.
And all My desire will I do.
11. Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about.
I formed. Indeed, I will do it.The words of God, can He not do it?
Blessings.
Quote (Gene @ April 24 2009,10:10) Kerwin…….I heard a lecture on the word Aion, before it was quite a in depth explanation and in every case the word only meant a time period and not eternal , it was a quite in depth study, and evidently the Greeks had no word for eternal except to say age into the age or something like that. I am not totally sure though , but logically speaking why would GOD eternally torture some one, it rally doesn't make much since, nor match His Character either. IMO love and peace to you…………………..gene
I do not agree with eternal as being the actual time but believe it would be more correct to translate it as a indeterminate period of time because scripture also states the wicked perish and you cannot perish if you are suffering eternally. God will determine the length of time and suffering that is appropriate for each case and it is not necessary for us to know. All we need to know is that God is just and so punishes those who embrace wickedness and rewards those who seek righteousness. We also need to know that God is merciful and will forgive those who repent of their wickedness and seek righteousness as well as being vengeful when someone abandons the path of righteousness to chase after wickedness.Quote (Gene @ April 24 2009,10:41) Kerwin……….Mar 9: 46-49……> explains this quite well IMO> as long as the (WORM) doesn't Die neither will the Fire be quenched. That applies to us all. Our Worn is our own stubborn Wills and if it is not put to death and GOD'S will done in ALL then intense judgments will not cease, unless we humbles ourselves and put our wills to death with Christ. Their worms (WILLS) dies not and (or so) the Fire (intense Judgments) does not cease or is not quenched. But those who believe in GOD the FATHER and in Jesus and keep the FATHERS WORDS, Have passed from Judgment to Life. All who Truly believe in the FATHER and The SON have put their worm to death. But we all are still salted with FIRE (Intense Judgments) Now. For the Father scourges every Son He accepts. IMO love and peace to you and yours………………………………gene
You should read Isaiah 66:24 since you are interpreting it badly. First you assume the wrong meaning for “worm”. I did a search on “worm” and it talks mostly about the worm eating the flesh of the dead. Isaiah 66:24 clearly states the wicked are dead at the time.
Quote (Gene @ April 22 2009,20:02) T8……….And who are you to trash anyones life to fit you theologies, God is quite able to save all> You tend to think your own Choices is what saves you leaving out GOD'S Power in the salvation process. But scripture says we are saved By grace, show us where any scripture say we are saved by our so-called free will choices. If Jesus said (NO) man can come unto me unless the Father draw Him , show us were free choices are involved there, in fact show us the words (FREE WILL) in the entire bible. You fail to realize that GOD gets into the heart and mind of a person and (CREATES) a NEW Person. You don't realize we are CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS, WE don't choose unto good works. For it is God who (WORKS) in you both to will and DO His good pleasure. You want to put salvation into the hand of Man and remove it from the hand of God. For you are saved by (GRACE) and that (NOT) of yourselves, it is a Gift of GOD, T8 now which part of that don't you understand. The wicked are destroyed and Evil is destroyed and all sin also is destroyed, but the question is How is it by destroying the person or destroying the evil in the person. WE contend its by destroying the evil in the person by cleansing Him with GOD'S Spirit (Intellect) or Washing by the words of GOD, Same thing.
Jesus plainly said the people could not understand His words unless it had been given them, so how could they choose BY the So-called FREE WILLS which is found nowhere in scripture. And all men reject GOD, “for there is non righteous no not even ONE” God said He look for JUST ONE and could not find ONE. A man will choose what is most influencing Him and if that is the Spirit of GOD then He will Choose GOD'S way. ” the gentiles who have not the Law but do the things contained in them show the Law written on the Heart by the Hand of GOD”, What part of that did they choose by their so-called (FREE WILLS) . You profess GOD T8 but deny the power there of, you are robbing GOD and Putting Salvation into mans Hands, like Nick does. BY your so-called free will choices. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Gene. If a man chooses to reject God, then God is not going to force that person to be one with him. Some people hate God. How can cold and hot be one?How can the wicked be joined with the righteous?
How can those who hate God and man who is made in his image be one with those who love God?You cannot join that which doesn't want to be joined.
Do you honestly think that every single person who has ever lived chooses to be righteous?
There is a big celestial rubbish tip where all that isn't eternal will be thrown into.
But those that belong to God cannot be hurt by that second death.
Eternal judgement is one of the foundations of the faith. If you deny that, then you are denying part of the foundation of the doctrine of Christ.
Hebrews 6: 1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (KJV)Hi guys,
Here's an online debate that's relevant to what you've been discussing. Pretty comprehensive handling of the topic of hell. Quite lengthy but worth a read if you have the time and inclination:Quote (Gene @ April 24 2009,10:20) E……..One question, since the Word used for eternity is really age, Which means a period of time, and not forever, could it be just for a time they are punished then. But not for ever. Torment really a form of intense Judgments? The smoke of their torment is not real smoke but the lessons learned by the torments they go through and that will be an everlasting lesson for all creation for ever. But the only one mentioned as being destroyed for ever and ever is the Devil and the Beast and no one has proved to me that these are actual beings yet. love and peace to you and yours………………………………….gene
hey there Gene….could be… but here is at least one reason why it is not….
Matthew 25:46 (ESV) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
“Because aionos (eternal) modifies both punishment and life in Matt 25:46, it stands to reason that the same quality and temporal connotations are in view. That is to say, however long the the life extends is how long the punishment lasts; the durations are identical. It is grammatically unsuitable to drive a wedge between the two uses of the term eternal in Matthew 25:46, suggesting that one refers to endlessness (eternal) and the other to temporal limitation (aeonial)…. Since it is clear to say that the eternal life is temporally unlimited it follows that the eternal punishment is also temporally unlimited.”
McNight's conclusion is fortified by the fact that five verses earlier Jesus says that the wicked will share the same destiny as the Devil, who according to Revelation 20:10 will suffer endlessly in the lake of fire.
(Hell On Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment, Robert Peterson, p 165, quoting Scot McNight, Eternal Consequences or Eternal Consciousness)blessings,
kenken
Notice the scripture you put up.
(((“”Matthew 25:46 (ESV) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””)))
You see what it says? “eternal PUNISHMENT”, not eternal punishing.
Their punishment, death, is eternal, last for ever; their is no life in death.Georg
Georg…….The Greek had no single word for eternal , eternal is a English word , in Greek its aion and means and age or for a time is what is used in scripture you mentioned. IMO
Check it our Georg ………love and peace to you and Irene………………………….gene
E……You brought a good point , saying one refers to one belonging to a endless (eternal time) and the other to a temporary time. I agree with you on that, SO lets assume they both are temporary times, Now if we say (LIFE) will always contain both good and evil and always has, because that is what life is composed of. Then as long as a person does Evil, his punishment will exist, but if he stops then his punishment will also, (the worm has died so to speak) and the torment is over, and conversely if a person ceases to do good and does evil punishment will come to him until he ceases doing evil, all of these are for periods of time, The problem with most is they want to make a temporal condition a eternal one, and scripture does not agree with that.
Eze 33:11…> There, thou son of man say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turned from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinned . >13< When i shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered, but for the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it. Also verse 14-16
E, brother it may be that the judgement of good and evil may be forever and can be executed at any time now or anytime in the future because Good and Evil will always exist. So it may always be a problem for all. Wisdom of life is taught by the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. It can not be truly learned except by experiencing it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
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