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Quote (bodhitharta @ June 10 2009,14:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:55) Hi BD,
What would you say to Paul?
He said
“it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”Does that offend you?
Nothing about Christ is offensive to me, And if he liveth in you then you are anointed also and praise God for that. But tell me if you are a son of God why do you feel the need to speak about adoption? Either you are or not someones child.
Hi BD,
Indeed a son of the estranged first Adam and now adopted into the family of GodQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2009,15:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 10 2009,14:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:55) Hi BD,
What would you say to Paul?
He said
“it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”Does that offend you?
Nothing about Christ is offensive to me, And if he liveth in you then you are anointed also and praise God for that. But tell me if you are a son of God why do you feel the need to speak about adoption? Either you are or not someones child.
Hi BD,
Indeed a son of the estranged first Adam and now adopted into the family of God
How is it that Adam is estranged when in the book of luke, Adam is called the son of God?Quote (bodhitharta @ June 10 2009,16:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2009,15:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 10 2009,14:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:55) Hi BD,
What would you say to Paul?
He said
“it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”Does that offend you?
Nothing about Christ is offensive to me, And if he liveth in you then you are anointed also and praise God for that. But tell me if you are a son of God why do you feel the need to speak about adoption? Either you are or not someones child.
Hi BD,
Indeed a son of the estranged first Adam and now adopted into the family of God
How is it that Adam is estranged when in the book of luke, Adam is called the son of God?
Luke 3:37-38 (Young's Literal Translation)37the [son] of Methuselah, the [son] of Enoch, the [son] of Jared, the [son] of Mahalaleel,
38the [son] of Cainan, the [son] of Enos, the [son] of Seth, the [son] of Adam, the [son] of God.
I love this chapter, it gives soo much LIGHT! =)
Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” 9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.” 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
YHWH does the work, and He does it according to His plan and timeline. He draws people in according to that timeline and that calling IS IRREVOCABLE, and that calling will be to ALL people.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,17:52) Hi Jodi,
Many are called but few are CHOSEN.
Hi Nick,There is another way to understand the scripture your're refering to!!
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance
Romans 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Nick, isn't it very apparent that the calling Jesus was referring to where few are chosen, must have been referring to the firstfruits?
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Nick……….why do you continue to go against scripture to force your own belief system. GOD is Perfectly able to save (ALL) if He so chooses, and He has already expressed His will is that NONE should Parish, So why are you against his WILL. IMO
peace and love………………….gene
Quote why do you continue to go against scripture to force your own belief system. GOD is Perfectly able to save (ALL) if He so chooses, Being able to do something does not mean you have to do it. Your argument is invalid. (Unless Nick is saying God is “unable” to save all.)
But, I think Nick is probably quoting all those scriptures that talk about God destroying the wicked everlastingly.
Quote He has already expressed His will is that NONE should Parish, So why are you against his WILL.
He doesn't want, he doesn't desire, and it is not his will that any be destroyed.
But it is also not his will that innocent people suffer horrible deaths. It happens every day.God is not happy when someone chooses death. But people choose it. That is not his will.
Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2009,02:25) Quote why do you continue to go against scripture to force your own belief system. GOD is Perfectly able to save (ALL) if He so chooses, Being able to do something does not mean you have to do it. Your argument is invalid. (Unless Nick is saying God is “unable” to save all.)
But, I think Nick is probably quoting all those scriptures that talk about God destroying the wicked everlastingly.
Quote He has already expressed His will is that NONE should Parish, So why are you against his WILL.
He doesn't want, he doesn't desire, and it is not his will that any be destroyed.
But it is also not his will that innocent people suffer horrible deaths. It happens every day.God is not happy when someone chooses death. But people choose it. That is not his will.
Hi David,Do you ever stop to think why it is people make the choices that they do? People are immersed in the influence of sin. We live in an age where YHWH is calling certain people out to be leaders, He is calling them out from the influence of sin. We live in an age of the calling of the FIRSFRUITS!
Do you believe that man's influences of sin are STRONGER then God's influences of righteousness? Do you seriously think that God's influence of righteousness is held solely in a book and some pastors who don't agree on what it means? Do you really believe that now is the time where God is putting forth His best efforts to save mankind? NO WAY, what a pathetic God we would have.
Sin is not truly fulfilling to the soul, that is why we have so many miserable people out in the world today, full of depression and anxiety. YOU really THINK, that once people are resurrected and shown that man's way is not the ONLY way, and are shown YHWH's ways, that they would want to go back to the way they previously lived?
Did you read Romans 11? Do you see that it shows people rejecting God, but then God bringing them back! Do you see that it says God has committed them all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all?
Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
David, salvation just does not work the way you think, you preach SELF righteousness, and a boasting heart. YHWH desires ALL to be saved and He is shown to save people through His Spirit, thus all the work is done through Him. Did the above scripture mention anything about He gives His Spirit and they choose to follow it, or not follow it? No, it says He gives and they DO come. Yes, people are shown to deny God, scripture also shows that God gives them a hard heart and a blind mind, so that for a time they do deny Him, this is to fulfill the purpose of bringing others in, ALL explained in Romans 11! People are raised into judgment and the lake of fire is a cleansing fire destroying sin and refining the person. This process is for an aion, or an AGE, not for an eternity. All have been disobedient and God’s plan is that He will have MERCY on ALL!
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
“To this END we both labor”, what END are they referring to? The END where YHWH becomes the Savior of ALL men!
I TRUST in the Living God, that this will be done. I praise, honor and LOVE YHWH, KNOWING that this WILL BE DONE!!
Eze 37:14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.'”
Whatever YHWH speaks it shall BE DONE!
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,17:52) Hi Jodi,
Many are called but few are CHOSEN.
Nick,I can't believe I'm agreeing with you. I think we need to stop and have a moment of silence everyone………………..OK, carry on.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,06:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,17:52) Hi Jodi,
Many are called but few are CHOSEN.
Nick,I can't believe I'm agreeing with you. I think we need to stop and have a moment of silence everyone………………..OK, carry on.
Really? You think YHWH who desires ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth ONLY CHOOSES a FEW?That makes NO sense, and it makes God out to be a pathetic looser, not a great merciful Almighty God.
The gospel, along with many false versions of it, have been sent out into the world, only a few have been chosen to know and follow the right one. These are known as the firstfruits.
Many have been called into false doctrine, only a few have been chosen to know the truth during this age. There comes a time however after the resurrection that all will be CHOSEN!
Romans 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,06:50) Hi Jodi,
God will bless His chosen people but gentiles are only offered salvation in Jesus.
Salvation IN Jesus, do you even know what that MEANS?Jesus reprsents what YHWH can do for EVERY MAN, through His Spirit. When you accept Jesus into you heart, this is the FACT you are to be accepting, that YHWH did the WORK, that YHWH MAKES men righteous and perfect in His sight.
Hi Jodi.
it has never been a matter of what God can do but what men will let Him do for them.
He offers salvation is Jesus[Jn3[ but save for His mercy rebellious men are yet under his wrath.[Jn3]
He could save all but has never promised to do that, besides that would deny faith and the mission of His Son.
Come to Jesus and let the fountain of eternal life spring up in you [Jn7]before the bucket falls to the bottom of your well.[Ecc12]Quote Really? You think YHWH who desires ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth ONLY CHOOSES a FEW? That makes NO sense, and it makes God out to be a pathetic looser, not a great merciful Almighty God.
His mercy has limits. Will he be merciful to Satan and grant him life?
While merciful, he is also just. And it would not be justice to all those who want to follow him, to allow the wicked to continue on.Unless you think he will make everyone a robot, so they have to do good.
Over and over again, he sent his prophets to the Israelites, asking them to turn around. They did not. His mercy has limits. So, “the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation producing it's fruits.”
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 04 2009,07:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,06:50) Hi Jodi,
God will bless His chosen people but gentiles are only offered salvation in Jesus.
Salvation IN Jesus, do you even know what that MEANS?Jesus reprsents what YHWH can do for EVERY MAN, through His Spirit. When you accept Jesus into you heart, this is the FACT you are to be accepting, that YHWH did the WORK, that YHWH MAKES men righteous and perfect in His sight.
Just curious….but where do you find “ask Jesus into your heart” directly preached as such in the gospel proclaimed by Jesus and His apostles?Quote Hi David, Do you ever stop to think why it is people make the choices that they do? People are immersed in the influence of sin. We live in an age where YHWH is calling certain people out to be leaders, He is calling them out from the influence of sin. We live in an age of the calling of the FIRSFRUITS!
Jodi,
Yes, we live in sin, with the influence of sin. Yes, God is now calling people out. But the question is: What of those who willingly say: “No thanks.”
Quote Do you believe that man's influences of sin are STRONGER then God's influences of righteousness?
Of course not. Righteousness will win out. God's righteous judgements will remove all who willingly oppose him, for the sake of the righteous who want to worship God.PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”When this happens,
PSALM 37:29
“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.”If you think God is going to make or force everyone to obey him, why the need in Proverbs 2:21,22 to mention the wicked being removed?
Quote Do you seriously think that God's influence of righteousness is held solely in a book and some pastors who don't agree on what it means?
You seem to keep asking me questions that don't seem related, or that don't explain your belief.Quote Do you really believe that now is the time where God is putting forth His best efforts to save mankind? NO WAY, what a pathetic God we would have.
Let's look at SCRIPTURE for a second.Was God putting forth his best effort to turn Israel around, to save Israel? They rejected him. He kept sending them prophets. They killed the prophets. He sent them HIS son. They killed the Son.
Or the days of Noah.
MATTHEW 24:36-39
““Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence [“coming”]of the Son of man will be.”The Bible itself says most people will ignore God's warning message from his servants. But you can't turn it around and say God is “pathetic” or a “loser” because not everyone “chooses” life.
Quote YOU really THINK, that once people are resurrected and shown that man's way is not the ONLY way, and are shown YHWH's ways, that they would want to go back to the way they previously lived?
I hear what you are saying. But are you talking about the time when Satan will be let loose for a little while? People get complacent. People are stupid. Even with Sin removed….Adam and Eve didn't have sin, they were perfect. Yet, they willfully chose badly.Quote Did you read Romans 11? Do you see that it shows people rejecting God, but then God bringing them back!
It shows that he rejected them as a people, but if they CHOSE to follow God, they would still be considered the Israel of God.ROMANS 11:1-36
“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! FOR I also am an Israelite,
While God rejected that fleshly nation, it didn't mean that he rejected all Israelites… Those who chose to follow his Son, would still be considered his people.What, then? The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it. The rest had their sensibilities blunted; just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, (Rom 11)
Quote Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. The fleshly Israelites were in a covenant relationship with God.
“IF you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5, 6)
“Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:42, 43)
Quote
David, salvation just does not work the way you think, you preach SELF righteousness, and a boasting heart.
No I don't.Quote Whatever YHWH speaks it shall BE DONE!
On this we agree.But what of the scriptures that speak of him destroying the wicked?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,07:04) Hi Jodi.
it has never been a matter of what God can do but what men will let Him do for them.
He offers salvation is Jesus[Jn3[ but save for His mercy rebellious men are yet under his wrath.[Jn3]
He could save all but has never promised to do that, besides that would deny faith and the mission of His Son.
Come to Jesus and let the fountain of eternal life spring up in you [Jn7]before the bucket falls to the bottom of your well.[Ecc12]Nick, your ideas do not fit with scripture.
And Romans 11 is talking about God's plan for ALL people.
Yes there is an age of wrath and yes there is an age of denying God, however NOT in the END there is not!
Why do you insist on making the Almighty God WEAK? You think that for some people, His influence is BELLOW that of men's, NOT STRONG enough?
You deny scripture Nick, God has certainly promised to save ALL mankind.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Don't you get it, YHWH CAUSES it to happen because His influence SUPERSEDES all others!!
IMO your understanding portrays that you have a SELF righteous heart. You teach that YOU have it IN you the ability to follow God, you don't realize that the ability came from God and it's not because YOUR special, it's because God caused it in you, and as He causes it in ONE man He causes it in ALL.
Indeed your ideas Nick DO NOT fit with the truth of scripture,
Romans 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
YHWH takes away the sins, YHWH causes it, YOUR NOT SPECIAL NICK.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Those disobedient will obtain mercy, NOT some who were disobedient, but ALL. Why is this? Because YHWH knows that His Spiritual influence Supersedes all other influences, nothing is more convincing than His work. But YOU Nick make YHWH out to be a disgrace saying He is only convincing enough to SOME, you make yourself above others saying that YOU possess something special that YOU would accept God but others won't. You make YHWH out to be a disgrace to say that He is NOT GOOD enough for some, that He cannot convince others that His ways are indeed awesome and wonderful.
This age of faulty translated bibles and pastors with all different doctrines, is NOT the calling of God, of which so many Christians declares is. The TRUE calling of God has been declared as irrevocable. The firstfruits have been called during this age, however the rest will have their TRUE calling after the resurrection.
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