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Quote (martian @ Sep. 01 2010,05:46) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,07:11) Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,05:01) All the debates center on proving that Christ pre-existed, I want to know what purpose it serves. Did God do it so that we would have something to debate? How does this doctrine work? What does it do for the believer? How does it help me along the journey to become like Christ?
What kind of fruit does it produce in my life? How does it edify or build me up?
martianThe son of God, Jesus, was God's first and only creation, everything else was created by the son, Col. 1:16.
God had to explain his plan for his creation to him, and since God can see the future before it happens, he also knew that man would sin, and sin deserves death. But God did not wanted to created anything that would not last for ever; we would need some one to die for our sins, in our stead. The son, Jesus, volunteered to die for us, that's why the Bible says, he was the Lamb, slain from before the foundation of the world, Rev. 13:8.
Jesus came to “save” the world, not to condemn it. What is going on right now, is not saving the world by any preacher, it is witnessing the gospel to the world. “Jesus WILL” save the world when “HE” begins to reign. The problem is, man has decided to do the job for Jesus, and as you can see, it's not working, is it?Georg
George and Irene,
I am attempting to not debate with you. I would ask you too to avoid mine.
Thank you for making me aware that you have the plague.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 01 2010,10:59) Quote (martian @ Sep. 01 2010,05:46) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,07:11) Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,05:01) All the debates center on proving that Christ pre-existed, I want to know what purpose it serves. Did God do it so that we would have something to debate? How does this doctrine work? What does it do for the believer? How does it help me along the journey to become like Christ?
What kind of fruit does it produce in my life? How does it edify or build me up?
martianThe son of God, Jesus, was God's first and only creation, everything else was created by the son, Col. 1:16.
God had to explain his plan for his creation to him, and since God can see the future before it happens, he also knew that man would sin, and sin deserves death. But God did not wanted to created anything that would not last for ever; we would need some one to die for our sins, in our stead. The son, Jesus, volunteered to die for us, that's why the Bible says, he was the Lamb, slain from before the foundation of the world, Rev. 13:8.
Jesus came to “save” the world, not to condemn it. What is going on right now, is not saving the world by any preacher, it is witnessing the gospel to the world. “Jesus WILL” save the world when “HE” begins to reign. The problem is, man has decided to do the job for Jesus, and as you can see, it's not working, is it?Georg
George and Irene,
I am attempting to not debate with you. I would ask you too to avoid mine.
Thank you for making me aware that you have the plague.Georg
It is difficult to keep track of who is posting. Irene and I seem to have a personality conflict. I would rather live in the spirit of peace then to try at this time to live in agreement on doctrine.
We come at scripture from two different directions. I believe mine is correct and you believe yours is correct. It is clear that neither of us is going to budge so we just throw scripture like a weapon. I do not believe that is of God.
I hope you will pray for me and I will do the same for you that God will teach us both the truth from his direction an not ours.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2010,18:30) To All …………..All this yakking and no one addressing the subject of this thread. Why must Christ pre-exist? Let here son (GOOD REASONS) WHY JESUS HAD TO PREEXIST. Surely all you who believe he did preexist can come up with something. Put your heads together and come up with some reason he (MUST) have Preexisted. peace and love to you all……………………………..gene
We don't need a reason just as we don't need a reason to explain why the Angel of the LORD existed before Moses.It just is.
It is up to us to accept truth humbly without motive.
If we come up with reasons first, then that taints our perception and makes us choose what we accept and what we do not.
We believe that Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself, existed in the form of man, obeyed God, died, rose again, and is seated at the right-hand of the Father in the glory that he had with him before the world begun.
We believe this not for any pre-determined reason, but only because it is written.
And now that we know it is written, we can appreciate after that fact, that God sent the most important and oldest one besides himself to die for us. He didn't create a being on the spot to fulfil a need, but paid the utmost price that could have been paid by sending the one whom he was with first to die for us.
Jesus pre-exists because of the Eternal Covenant made between him and God. Which I believe Gene keeps talking about,,,,the Plan.
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2010,11:57) We don't need a reason just as we don't need a reason to explain why the Angel of the LORD existed before Moses. It just is.
It is up to us to accept truth humbly without motive.
T8………..So you reason “ours is not to reason why , ours is but to do or die” right? The “FAITH” of the Blind, So why don't you follow the Catholic Trinitarian teachings then after all they were the first to teach the Trinity and Preexistence doctrines. No one else taught them. IMOpeace and love brother…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 04 2010,08:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2010,11:57) We don't need a reason just as we don't need a reason to explain why the Angel of the LORD existed before Moses. It just is.
It is up to us to accept truth humbly without motive.
T8………..So you reason “ours is not to reason why , ours is but to do or die” right? The “FAITH” of the Blind, So why don't you follow the Catholic Trinitarian teachings then after all they were the first to teach the Trinity and Preexistence doctrines. No one else taught them. IMOpeace and love brother…………………….gene
Gene! You are totally wrong about the Catholic Church teaching the doctrine of the preexisting of Jesus. We belonged to a Catholic Church for all of our lives until Georg was 47 and I was 46. I taught all the doctrines to our Children and the preexisting was not one of them…..
Were did you get that information from?
?IreneIrene………So are you saying they do not teach that Jesus is GOD the creator of all thing, that he and the Father are one and the same they call the trinity . Now if Jesus is GOD the He had to preexist his berth on earth right, God certainly did preexist right. Preexistence and Trinitarians are both in the same boat they both portray Jesus as Preexisting. To deny that is simply not true Irene.
The Doctrine of preexistence only separates Our (IDENTIFY) WITH JESUS , Just as the Doctrine of the Trinity does also, they are both false teachings of Pagan religion of the Greeks and Romans. Irene i tell you as i have others those who preach and teach them (ARE) Antichrists. They have (SEPARATED) JESUS FROM THEMSELVES they have cut themselves off from the vine by these false teachings. Saying Jesus was and is not like them therefore they are disconnected by there very own selves. So Jesus could very easily say i don't know you , because they do not know him and don't try to (IDENTIFY) WITH HIM EITHER. They only know about Him and the whole world know about him that means nothing , it is when we (identify) with Him we become attached to him. Why do you think so many disciples left Jesus , they know about him but they did not (IDENTIFY) THEMSELVES WITH HIM. Can you say as He is so are your , not because you have separated yourself from him saying he is different then you. Do you understand what i am saying Irene?Peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2010,06:30) Irene………So are you saying they do not teach that Jesus is GOD the creator of all thing, that he and the Father are one and the same they call the trinity . Now if Jesus is GOD the He had to preexist his berth on earth right, God certainly did preexist right. Preexistence and Trinitarians are both in the same boat they both portray Jesus as Preexisting. To deny that is simply not true Irene.
The Doctrine of preexistence only separates Our (IDENTIFY) WITH JESUS , Just as the Doctrine of the Trinity does also, they are both false teachings of Pagan religion of the Greeks and Romans. Irene i tell you as i have others those who preach and teach them (ARE) Antichrists. They have (SEPARATED) JESUS FROM THEMSELVES they have cut themselves off from the vine by these false teachings. Saying Jesus was and is not like them therefore they are disconnected by there very own selves. So Jesus could very easily say i don't know you , because they do not know him and don't try to (IDENTIFY) WITH HIM EITHER. They only know about Him and the whole world know about him that means nothing , it is when we (identify) with Him we become attached to him. Why do you think so many disciples left Jesus , they know about him but they did not (IDENTIFY) THEMSELVES WITH HIM. Can you say as He is so are your , not because you have separated yourself from him saying he is different then you. Do you understand what i am saying Irene?Peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene
Yep. You are right Gene. Most non-catholic Pre-existers want to deny the origin of their beliefs in Catholicism and constantine doctrine.
Catholics have to teach the pre-existence because without the pre-existence of Christ the whole trinitarian doctrine falls apart.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 04 2010,08:36) T8………..So you reason “ours is not to reason why , ours is but to do or die” right? The “FAITH” of the Blind, So why don't you follow the Catholic Trinitarian teachings then after all they were the first to teach the Trinity and Preexistence doctrines. No one else taught them. IMO
You appear to be confused Gene.The Catholic Trinity doctrine is a doctrine that teaches that God is made up of 3 members all sharing the same substance and that all 3 are equal and have existed forever.
Believing that the logos in God being expressed as the Logos with God, then partaking of flesh is not concurring with the above doctrine.
Catholics also confess that Jesus is the son Gene. So why do you believe the Catholic doctrine that Jesus is the son?
OK, I hope you see the point now.
Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,02:40) Yep. You are right Gene. Most non-catholic Pre-existers want to deny the origin of their beliefs in Catholicism and constantine doctrine.
Catholics have to teach the pre-existence because without the pre-existence of Christ the whole trinitarian doctrine falls apart.
All you are doing is saying that Christ existing in glory with the Father before the world begun, is an associated doctrine of the Trinity.
It is not.The Trinity doctrine teaches that God the son has existed forever and is as old as the Father and the Spirit. The three members are co-equal and eternal.
But we believe that Jesus was not God, but the Logos that was WITH God in the beginning and previous to that, the logos was and still is an attribute of God just as wisdom and truth is. So Jesus/Logos/Truth are all attributes of God, but were given birth or personified in Jesus Christ who is the Truth, the Logos, and the firstborn of all creation. We believe that Jesus existed with divine nature and emptied himself, and came in human nature like us and started human life like us, learned obedience like us, died, and was risen up to be with the Father in the glory he had with him before the world began. Our belief is that God paid the biggest price for our redemption, the suffering and death of the one who was first.
We don't believe as you do, that God created on the spot the greatest being in existence, (besides God himself), approximately 2000 years ago.
Your and Gene's strategy to tie the Trinity with the statement I make in this post is not warranted and is a big stretch of your imagination.Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,05:01) All the debates center on proving that Christ pre-existed, I want to know what purpose it serves. Did God do it so that we would have something to debate? How does this doctrine work? What does it do for the believer? How does it help me along the journey to become like Christ?
What kind of fruit does it produce in my life? How does it edify or build me up?
It is not about a purpose. It is not a must.
Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”.
There are many other scriptures.
There is no advantage to us that Jesus preexisted.
We don't make money out of it.
It is just a matter of believing what you read in scripture.
That is all.T8…………Nick has it right Jesus did not exist before his berth on this earth , but the “CHRISTOS” Did it was in the beginning with GOD the Father and came to be (IN) the Man Jesus who is called the Christ. The teaching of the Trinity as well as the Preexistence of Jesus is a false teachings T8. The Trinitarians also teach Jesus Preexisted His berth as a GOD , So they also, as you preach a Preexistent Jesus.
The error of these teachings is the it creates a great Separation between Jesus and Mankind it breaks his Identity with us and it also crates a form of Idolatry. While Jesus is indeed a Mediator between GOD and Man he still is a MAN and always was a MAN every sense he came into existence.
T8 God was not dealing with Angels or other Gods he was dealing with MANKIND and he did it through a Man, the Man Jesus , by his anointing Spirit that same Spirit that was following the Childern of Israel in the wilderness, it came to be in the Man Jesus making him the Christos or the anointed one of GOD. This spirit he recieved at the Jordan river, this Spirit was God's Presents (IN) the man Jesus Known as the LOGOS from GOD. The Logos came to be i(IN) the Flesh Man Jesus. If you do not believe GOD was truly (IN) the Man Jesus, then you have completely missed the boat Brother.
That is why i have said even the Trinitarians are closer to the truth then you guys, becasue they at least see GOD'S presence in Jesus even though they are in error by calling him (the man) a GOD himself , but you people can't even see God's presents (IN) Him. You believe he was a “MORPHED” angel, but no scripture say that at all. Trying to force the text to say what in fact it does not say is wrong T8. IMO
T8 you say there is no advantage to us that Jesus Preexisted and you are right there is no advantage to any human being if Jesus Preexisted He in fact would not be any true example to us , He could not even Identify honestly with Us at all, becasue he would not be “TRULY” ONE of US HUMAN no matter what, if he was MORPHED into that existence from another form of existence. Your position breaks down both Jesus' work as a Man and GOD'S work (IN) Mankind , it completely distorts the salvation Process of GOD the FATHER in and through mankind. IMO
peace and love …………………………………………………………….gene
T8………….Martin did not believe in the preexistence of Jesus as you well know, and He was right on . In his posts IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
I have said this a number of times and no one can refute this because I am really just quoting scripture, albeit I have abbreviated it into my own words. Yet men here grit their teeth when I say this and it can all be shown as scripture.
He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, humbled himself, died, rose from the dead, and went back to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
Who among you gritted your teeth or became irritated?
What spirit becomes irritated when you speak from scripture.
Did not Jesus speak scripture or what was written to the tempter to overcome him?
Again, what spirit becomes irritated by the truths in scripture because if you are irritated, then it is likely that this spirit has a measure of control over you?Yes christos is the anointing and Jesus Christ was the annointed one, no one is disagreeing with that from what I can tell.
That said, what does that have to do with Jesus existing in the form of God, emptying himself, becoming flesh, humbling himself, dying for our sins, and rising from the dead to be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began?
Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”.
I believe it and some others do not.
Your choice. What more can be said?T8……. You are completely changing the text to meet you teachings.
Phi 2:6…… “Who “BEING” in the form of GOD”.
“huparcho” the word BEING Strong's….> From G5259 and G76; to begin under (quietly), that is, come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxiliary to principle verb- after behave, Live.
T8 did you notice it say “came into existence” yes Jesu did come into “EXISTENCE with the Form of GOD when he came into existence on this earth he had GOD'S Spirit and therefore His Nature in him, He did exist in the Form of GOD while he was on this earth.
But he did not regard that state of (BEING) as robbing GOD, being equal in Nature to GOD. He did not hold it over us but took on a role as a servant to us.
All of this took place when he existed on this earth before his assent to heaven. This had nothing to do with a “PER-EARTH” existence at all. IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
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