Why must christ pre-exist?

Participant

Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,08:29)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 15 2010,13:08)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,14:04)

Sorry folks. Sometimes I must deal with the children. I am still looking for the rational to tell me the fruit of the doctrine of pre-existence. Show me how it benefits me and I will consider it.

Martian

i was looking at your remarks and i jump away of my computer screen to let all your ego blow beside me not on me.

it is obvious to me you are not in a position to receive truth your heart is still full of ego.and we know God will not open the eyes of those blind who say they can see.

Pierre

Interesting remarks.

Martian is one who has demonstrated humility. Over and over again.

His posts on the process he uses to allow scripture to speak for itself is a testimony to his humility before God and God's word.

He is not emotion driven.

He is not seeking to prove a preconceived idea.

He is not looking for brownie points from any man.

His heart's desire is to stand approved before God, II Timothy 2:15.

He seeks to please God, and not men.

By working within a logical process, he takes his own feelings, emotions, preconceptions and denominational teachings out of the picture. He discards them in order to read what God intended. He empties himself, so that God may fill him with God's words.

He is not perfect, but has demonstrated the maturity of one who truly seeks to do the will of the Father.

He has humbled himself under the mighty hand of God, and God has and will continue to exalt him.

That is what God wants for all of us to do. I am sure that we have all done this to some degree or other.

Martian is one who has excelled.

Jesus Christ might have been tempted to call on those 12 legions of angels. But he did not. Why? He subdued his emotions, he emptied himself of his own will in order to do the will of the Father, the only true God. John 17:3.

Martian to me, is a brother in Christ.

I stand for my brothers and sisters in Christ, whenever and where ever I can.

Believers have done this for me. I have learned to do it for them.

barley

Barley

you must know him better than i do ,but you are right for respecting true christian brothers,

but i do not know him more of what i read of him.

so i will excuse myself to him because i believe you are telling the truth about him.

and also you have shown me true comments, good faith.

Pierre

August 20, 2010 at 5:20 am#213100

Participant

Quote (martian @ Aug. 17 2010,10:29)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2010,23:09)

Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06)

How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am” and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham?

If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones).

That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist.

e.g., are you Barley?
If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley.

I believe hat you ae making the same mistake as Mike. It is not possible to read a 2,000 y/o document from another language and culture in an English translation and just form an opinion. You must study the language, the culture even sometimes the geographic location to come up with an accurate answer. The percentages are very low that an opinion baed solely on reading an English translation can be accurate. Don't you want to be right about God's word? Don't you want to increase the odds that your conclusions are right through good honest study?

Martian

if you going to look at all the words in scriptures,then you would have to live at the least 130 years ,
this is not the way God and Christ intended to make it the word understandable to us,

wen Christ told the pharisees that they do not understand the scriptures ,literally he knew that they could read it and understand the language,but it was the Godly understanding of scriptures they did not understand,

and this process is given by God trough Christ.

so it is not a matter of us doing but us to request just like Salomon did wen he be came King.

now do not get me wrong you need some knowledge.otherwise how could we follow if we do not know God.

Pierre

August 20, 2010 at 2:33 pm#213115

Participant

Martian……….Do not get discouraged by some novices and the ignorant who would has no idea what they is yapping about brother. You, barley, and Kerwin, Adam, 942767, and myself , are presenting the case against preexistence accurately , If is up to God to let them understand it anyway, not us , But if they do not love the truth then GOD sends to them a deluding Spirit (intellect) in order for them to believe the Lies. We are told to defend the truth and to attain to the Faith once and for all delivered unto the Saint of the Most High. IMO

peace and love to you and yours martian ………………………….gene

August 21, 2010 at 12:47 am#213159

barley

Participant

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:58)

Gene,
There is a possibility I may have to go into the hospital again for a few weeks. I may not be on here for a while. You nad barley might be on your own for a while. I will see if my lap top is working or I can get a signal in the hospital room. Don't know for sure.

Martian,

There is a children's song, that raises my expectations for God's will coming to pass in my life.

Expect miracles every day,
Expect miracles when you pray,
When you expect them,
God will find a way,
to perform miracles for you each day.

III John 2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. “

barley

August 21, 2010 at 3:36 pm#213223

Participant

Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,11:47)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:58)

Martian,

There is a children's song, that raises my expectations for God's will coming to pass in my life.

Expect miracles every day,
Expect miracles when you pray,
When you expect them,
God will find a way,
to perform miracles for you each day.

III John 2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. “

barley

barley……….So true, if we pray we need to expect the answers to our prayers, looking forward to them with expectation and when it happens rejoice in the Lord and His loving Kindness. Sometimes GOD does allow things in our lives to forge us and discipline us.

My Hope and prayer is that GOD Will Heal martin , that is all we can do , Martian is truly a champion of the faith brother, IMO

peace and love to you and yorus………………….gene

August 21, 2010 at 4:33 pm#213230

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,02:36)

Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,11:47)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:58)

Martian,

There is a children's song, that raises my expectations for God's will coming to pass in my life.

Expect miracles every day,
Expect miracles when you pray,
When you expect them,
God will find a way,
to perform miracles for you each day.

III John 2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. “

barley

My Hope and prayer is that GOD Will Heal martin , that is all we can do , Martian is truly a champion of the faith brother, IMO

peace and love to you and yorus………………….gene

I am a little taken aback by all the praise. I do not seek it or deserve it. I have been truly blessed with good teachers and ample time to research and seek the face of my beloved brother Jesus.

thank you Gene for the compliments.

August 21, 2010 at 4:57 pm#213236

Baker

Participant

Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,11:47)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:58)

Martian,

There is a children's song, that raises my expectations for God's will coming to pass in my life.

Expect miracles every day,
Expect miracles when you pray,
When you expect them,
God will find a way,
to perform miracles for you each day.

III John 2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. “

barley

I wake up every morning and see the miracles of life. The tree's that come back every year, and the flower so colorful, it takes your breath away. The small Bird, the Hummingbird, that flies south for the winter. All of those are God's creation and miracles…..Every day He keeps them alive….and what do we do? We complain to each other because we think they are wrong and we are right…..Guess what? All have fallen short of the glory of God, all have some truth, and all have some errors….. Turn from evil, and do good to those that despise you, and talk about you, when your back is turned….
Patience, Love, Peace and Hope is what God wants us to have in spite of all the wrong doing, unconditional Love that He has for us, we should also show to others…..Will you do so, or are you going to turn your back on it……Peace Irene

August 21, 2010 at 5:30 pm#213241

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 22 2010,03:57)

Quote (barley @ Aug. 21 2010,11:47)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:58)

Martian,

There is a children's song, that raises my expectations for God's will coming to pass in my life.

Expect miracles every day,
Expect miracles when you pray,
When you expect them,
God will find a way,
to perform miracles for you each day.

III John 2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. “

barley

I agree with you. unfortunately forums for debate automatically put us all into adversarial positions. This is one of the reasons that I see little fruit in them other then something to pass the time. We are all children of God through our father Adam. Some have more knowledge, some less. Some are more obedient then others, but all seek to travel the path God has set for each one of us.

August 21, 2010 at 5:44 pm#213244

JustAskin

Participant

Martian,

We are all children of 'Man' through Adam.

We become children of God through Christ.

For the first sinned and we are in sin through that one, and through sin, the estrangement from the Father.

But the second brought life and the hope of Sonship through faith in his testimony of the Father.

August 21, 2010 at 6:00 pm#213245

Ed J

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 22 2010,04:44)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,04:30)

We are all children of God through our father Adam.

Martian,

We are all children of 'Man' through Adam.

We become children of God through Christ.

For the first sinned and we are in sin through that one, and through sin, the estrangement from the Father.

But the second brought life and the hope of Sonship through faith in his testimony of the Father.

Hi JustAskin,

Good clarification!

1Cor.15:49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Genesis 5:3),
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly(Colossians 1:15 / Rom.8:29).

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 21, 2010 at 6:08 pm#213247

JustAskin

Participant

Hi Gene,
Thanks, except that I should have said 'Adam brought death', which is then balanced by 'Jesus brought life'.

Momentary lapse…

August 21, 2010 at 6:32 pm#213252

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 22 2010,04:44)

Martian,

We are all children of 'Man' through Adam.

We become children of God through Christ.

For the first sinned and we are in sin through that one, and through sin, the estrangement from the Father.

But the second brought life and the hope of Sonship through faith in his testimony of the Father.

luke 3 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Some may be estranged but that does not mean that they are no longer sons. Remember the parable of the prodigal son. He did not lose his sonship because he went astray. The one lost sheep did not stop being a sheep because it was lost.
We are not born guilty of sin because of Adam. Sin came into the world through Adam not into humanity. Each man is judged according to his own actions not the actions of his fore fathers.
To say we are born into sin condemns all babies that die as infants to death. All aborted babies would end up in hell. This is completely contrary to the character of God. He would not do such a thing.

August 22, 2010 at 4:07 am#213366

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 22 2010,05:08)

Hi Gene,
Thanks, except that I should have said 'Adam brought death', which is then balanced by 'Jesus brought life'.

Momentary lapse…

JA……….A interesting thing is that it say sin enter in through Adam , But Jesus when describing the Adversary said He was a lier and murder from the beginning and Abode not in the Truth because the Truth was not in Him. We see sin first mentioned by GOD to the FIRST HUMAN (BORN) Man, that was not Adam or Eve, but Cain, who was truly first (BORN) of the HUMAN RACE. So even though Sin enter the world (through) Adam and EVE, by their Berth of Cain the First Sinner was the first human (BORN), who Killed HIS Brother Able. It is also with Cain that the first time the word Sin appears in scripture. I do not believe we are BORN sinners I think we Become sinners, John said all that is in the world the lust of the flesh the lust of the eyes and the Pride of Life are (from) the World.

I think we become sinners by living in this environment from our berth. It would go against the Character of GOD to created us sinners. However I think we are born with the Propensity to sin, but not a born sinner. I believe all childern are held as sin less until they reach a certain age of accountability. IMO

peace and love……………………..gene

August 22, 2010 at 5:05 am#213371

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,22:07)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 22 2010,05:08)

Hi Gene,
Thanks, except that I should have said 'Adam brought death', which is then balanced by 'Jesus brought life'.

Momentary lapse…

peace and love……………………..gene

gene

you say; I do not believe we are BORN sinners I think we Become sinners,

in this case you must know,how to perform the sexual acte in a manner where you are in complete control of your thoughts and so not sin,neither before or after.

the scriptures say that we are conceived in sin.but you are now perfect??

Pierre

August 22, 2010 at 3:21 pm#213385

Participant

Terricca…………So what if your parents conceived you in Sin (LUST FOR SEX) that still does not Mean YOU were (Born) a SINNER. A Child is not a Sinner He or She is totally innocent of Sin. And except you become as a little Child you in no ways will enter the Kingdom of GOD, YOURSELF, does that reflect to you that the Child is a sinner.

Terricca, your trying so hard to disprove me it is blinding you from the truth IMO.

peace and love……………..gene

August 23, 2010 at 1:14 am#213440

Baker

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2010,15:29)

Irene,

You are perhaps answering the question posed by this thread when you state your belief that Jesus gave up much when he choose to become a human being.

What did he give up?

He is presently King of everything on earth and in heaven and from what you seem to imply has always been. He showed quite a bit of authority even as a human being. It is my understanding that you also believe that he shape changed from am immaterial being to a human being was resurrected as a human being and then shape changed back into an immaterial being. In short I nothing he surrendered.

I am wondering if you tested your beliefs as instructed to do by God.

kerwin! He had a glory with His Father, He was a Spirit Being. The reason I can say that is because in John 17:5 He said:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had before the world was. To that glory He went back to. He came down from Heaven to do the will of Him who send Him.
John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who send Me.
I know that you don't believe that John 1:1 The Word of God is who became Jesus, however when you read in Rev. 19:13 it says this
“He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.”
verse 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen white and clean, followed Him on white horsed.
verse 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the wine press of the fierceness and the wrath of Almighty God.
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Is there anyone else that fits that discription? I do not think so…..You know it is so amazing with all this Scriptures that shows us that Christ was before all. The firstborn of all creation Col. 1:15 and through Him all was created verse 16 and John 1:3 and in John 1:14 He became flesh and was called Jesus as a Human being. He went back and will come again as The Words of God and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. kerwin, is it really that hard to grasp all of that? Or is it someones pride that just does not let one acknowledge that it is the truth, listed in Scriptures….. I do know how hard it was for me, to say I was wrong, and the person that told us, was right. But I did, and it was not easy…..but you know God helped us with all of it…..and it has nothing to do with the trinity or that Jesus had to be just like us….He was just like us that He was a Human being and hurt like us and was very scared when He was in the Garden, of I forgot the name of that Garden, where He went and prayed to God to let that cup pass Him by…. We should all be so thankful that He gave up His glory to die for us, and now He will never die, immortality was His reward…..
Peace to you Irene

August 23, 2010 at 3:48 am#213460

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,09:21)

Terricca, your trying so hard to disprove me it is blinding you from the truth IMO.

peace and love……………..gene

gene

the fact that Jesus says that you have to become like a small child does not refers to the child being without sin.

He was pointing out the attitude we should have to receive the good news of the kingdom.

Pierre

August 23, 2010 at 5:51 pm#213526

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 23 2010,12:14)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2010,15:29)

Irene,

You are perhaps answering the question posed by this thread when you state your belief that Jesus gave up much when he choose to become a human being.

What did he give up?

I am wondering if you tested your beliefs as instructed to do by God.

Irene,
You have still not defined Spirit Being. How about just defining spirit.

August 23, 2010 at 6:11 pm#213529