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DavidL
With all the months I spent on the trinity debate you could never once come up with your own rendering of John 1:1 – yet you would argue that the Bible translators got it wrong, and were either biased or mistaken in declaring that the Word was God…
well if you believe it as it is written then it is poor english ;for how could someone be with himself and saying it for what purpose ?
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.and according to you then GOD HAS A BEGINNING ?right
AND IF THE WORD WAS IN THE BEGINNING AND IN VERSE 2 IS CALLED “HE” THEN WOULD THIS MEAN THAT THE “HE” HIS GOD ?
what you say ?
Why are there two deaths is a good question.Isn’t one enough? And if nobody was ever really dead then what is a second death? except maybe more extreme torture from the terrible Jewish god? And why all this confusion? but to create more fear which is the greatest factor to manipulate and control people. ?
If it’s appointed to men once to die and then the judgement,then just what does that mean? A judgement at death only to be followed by another judgement at some unknown time? I don’t pretend to be a authority on these things but i could be if I so decided to be.But I choose to be undecided.
T8 – you quote, the soul that sins shall die, as if this somehow proves something….when death itself is described as a state of separation – not extinction.
Yes it proves that the soul will die, just like the body.
Physical death is when the body and soul are separated. The body doesn’t exist without the soul. The Second Death is when the soul is separated from God who is the God of the living and not the dead. Except your view is that the wicked soul once separated are still living somehow without God’s spirit, and exist in Hell somehow, even though it has been put into the Lake of Fire. Does Hell survive the fire that burns up the heavens, earth, and wicked? Are the wicked made alive by electricity? Or do they possess the spirit and breath of God? How do you explain your bizarre belief?
So how do the wicked live eternally in Hell, when:
- Hell is cast into the Second Death (Lake of Fire that consumes the Heavens and Earth).
- When the spirit that gives life is given back to God who gave it.
Besides dozens or hundreds of scriptures that contradict your view, you only need to think this through, it is not hard. “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”.
God spirit is what gives life. They suffer “everlasting destruction and are shut out from the presence of the YHWH .” Otherwise God’s Spirit is in Hell keeping them alive and also being punished in an everlasting flame. Surely he withdraws his spirit from the wicked.
If I cut off the power source of my computer for eternity, then that computer is just a dead bit off hardware (so to speak). If I burn that computer, then it is not even a bit of hardware anymore.
Your view suggests a few things that are clearly contrary to scripture, prophecy, and the character of God. That somehow the soul of the wicked is eternal and living. i.e., they inherit eternal life too.
Like the Sadducees and Pharisees before you, they neither repented of their beliefs, preferring instead to follow their traditions, even when their traditions were not favourable. e.g., the Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead. They persisted in this, even though deep down they probably would wish there was one.
The Pharisees on the other hand, incorrectly held the view that the human soul was eternal. The truth in scripture reveals that a man’s soul can be saved and exist forever, but this is exclusively reserved for the righteous.
I do realise DavidL, that not even scripture can change your view. That was true of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Also, they persecuted those who taught the truth, such as Jesus of Nazareth. You do the same by persecuting those who teach Jesus message.
DavidL. you need to change from Saul to Paul. Paul taught that those who refuse the knowledge of God and the Gospel of Christ will be “punished with everlasting destruction.” They will be destroyed forever, no chance at life again. He also taught that there was one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, not one God the Father, Son, and Spirit.
Up to you. Don’t listen to me, listen to the scriptures I give you.
T8 – again you try to reason out the spiritual dimension with your carnal understanding – which is why you end up teaching the same heresies as the cults… but since you are unable to accept truths outside of your own logical conclusions, it is you that has become locked into the same theological confinements as the Pharisees…
All I ask is that you quit pontificating and give your understanding of Rev 20:10…
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Hi Andrew,
The time specified is till the judgement.
ONCE TO DIE AND THEN THE JUDGEMENT
The second death is after the Judgement
(Thanks for your input Terraricca, I was actually addressing t8)
knowledge has become your god, your idol – yet if you sought God Himself you would gain real knowledge…true understanding instead of the rags of human reasoning that only puffs people up… like the Pharisees, you claim to see, and yet you are truly blind – locked up in the theological confinements of your own mind.. teaching as truth the fallacies of your own seemingly logical deductions..
..if someone came and unlocked your prison door, you would hide in the corner of your cell and say, No, this is my home – this is my world…I like it here.!
In the story of Pilgrim’s Progress there is a man with a rake in his hands who was continually raking over the dirt looking for treasure, and yet above his head the angel held out a priceless crown of pure gold for him – but sadly it was crown never received, because he never looked up..!!
When we look to our own logic and reason for answers, this is what we are like – we never find the reality because we are too busy working it out ourselves.. this is why truth is revealed to little children – and kept hidden from the wise and the learned.
Hi Nick,
The second death is after the judgement? I thought perhaps the second death was the final judgement.
So are you saying you think there are two judgements then? One at death then another at final judgement?
I was speaking to a Christian friend about this and told him if one goes to heaven when he dies then there should be no fear of the final judgement since God surely wouldn’t take one to heaven only to send him to hell at the final judgement.
Do you think people go to heaven with Christ upon death only to later be resurrected into the eternal kingdom upon earth? or just what?
DavidL
knowledge has become your god, your idol – yet if you sought God Himself you would gain real knowledge…true understanding instead of the rags of human reasoning that only puffs people up… like the Pharisees, you claim to see, and yet you are truly blind – locked up in the theological confinements of your own mind.. teaching as truth the fallacies of your own seemingly logical deductions..
..if someone came and unlocked your prison door, you would hide in the corner of your cell and say, No, this is my home – this is my world…I like it here.!
In the story of Pilgrim’s Progress there is a man with a rake in his hands who was continually raking over the dirt looking for treasure, and yet above his head the angel held out a priceless crown of pure gold for him – but sadly it was crown never received, because he never looked up..!!
When we look to our own logic and reason for answers, this is what we are like – we never find the reality because we are too busy working it out ourselves.. this is why truth is revealed to little children – and kept hidden from the wise and the learned.
sorry to have disturbed you ,
all what you say can really said to you without omitting anything of it ,so this nonsense talk does not do anything for the glory of god what I serve and his son jesus christ ,
and no my knowledge is not my god but OF MY GOD big difference
Hi Andrew,
Two judgements??
Those in Christ Jesus are not in the final judgement as they have already passed over from death to life.[jn5]
They face the tribunal of Christ Paul wrote about and shown in Mt 25 14-30
The details of the judgement of the remainder are shown in Mt 25 31-46
Hi Andrew,
Where does scripture suggest heaven is the hoped for destination of man?
The meek shall inherit the earth
Hi Andrew,
Natural man awaits judgement after death in the waiting places in earth-Death and Hades.
Sheol holds them till the end of the millennium..
Hi Andrew,
The safe road is to repent and be baptised by water into the death and burial of Jesus and be raised in the Spirit.[Rom6]
When we look to our own logic and reason for answers, this is what we are like – we never find the reality because we are too busy working it out ourselves.. this is why truth is revealed to little children – and kept hidden from the wise and the learned.
Wakeup DavidL.
Is this my reasoning? If so, then you must think I wrote these scriptures. lol. No it wasn’t me. But either way, you do not believe the ones who wrote these and the one who inspired them? What else are we to conclude when faced with such overwhelming scriptural evidence. You have merely tradition on your side and one or two scriptures that you can skew your way, the same method used for much false doctrine.
How about actually believing what is written over the mainstream view. Jesus wasn’t the mainstream either and was accused of being in a cult/sect. So based on your idea of a cult, you would have rejected the messiah and believed the Pharisees, as they too were the supposed gatekeepers of truth and Christ was in a cult.
We have found this man to be a troublemaker who is constantly stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes.
So yes DavidL, if I am in a cult, then it is the one whom Jesus belonged. Guilty as charged. Feel free to crucify us if you are so stirred to do. I stand with him and I stand by these scriptures. I have these as a witness.
- What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
- the soul that sins shall die
- for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
- hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
- But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
- He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
- What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
- And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
- They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
- I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
- and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
- Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
- Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
- They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
- By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
- For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hi t8,
We know what natural death is like.
We should not assume the second death is also rapid and finite.
DavidL,
If God does not hold his anger forever (Psalms 30:5, Psalms 103:9, Isaiah 57:16), who is is charge of eternal hell? Please answer.
Quite simply, the wages of sin is death. The GIFT from GOD is eternal life.
More to say, but later.
Hi Nick,
“The safe road is to repent and be baptised by water into the death and burial of Jesus and be raised in the Spirit.[Rom6]”
Don’t worry Nick I’ve been there and done that. So you think water baptism is a requirement for salvation I take it? Don’t worry I know the verses that teach that and have no problem with them either.
“Where does scripture suggest heaven is the hoped for destination of man?” as you well know this is what most Christians believe,that as believers they’ll “depart and be with Christ” as Paul said in Philippians or “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”2Cor 5:8 Is the Lord still presently dead in the grave? or is he in heaven?
But did I say what I believe about that in my previous post Nick? I said I was discussing this with a fellow Christian.
Hi Nick,
Is Matt 25 not the final judgement? some are saved and some are not? it certainly seems a final judgement to me.I don’t see Jesus passing out crowns here. If this is just a “believers” judgement apparently all were not believers or doers maybe.
Hi t8,
We know what natural death is like.
We should not assume the second death is also rapid and finite.
We should assume of it the following. Do you agree Nick?
- What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
- the soul that sins shall die
- for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
- hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
- But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
- He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
- What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
- And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
- They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
- I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
- and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
- Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
- Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
- They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
- By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
- For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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