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T8….I will take an example from my own life , once I had a smoking addiction, i know that it was wrong and that GOD WANTED ME TO NOT SMOKE, so i decided to quit, that was my “will”, so i started trying ,i would put nearly whole packs of cigarettes in water , to not be abke to smoke, but within 2 hours i was digging for snipes in my cars ash try, and would buy another pack and destroy then after a few cigarettes, i did this over and over, i even went to a doctor and got patches and quitting aids, but still could not quit, so much for my so-called “freewill”, it did not work as you say, so after a year I decided to take it to GOD the Father, I PRAYED AND SAID I COULD NOT QUITE, and was no longer going to try, if he would not deliever me from this addition i would smoke till i died. At the time of my prayer i had a half a pack of cigarettes in my shirt pocket, i got up from that prayer fully expecting to fail and waited for the urge to have another cigarette, but to my supprise i went for 2 hours without any desire for one , then 4 hrs, then 24 hrs, then acomplete week, without so much as one desire for a cigarette, it was as if i never smoked in my life, That was 15 years ago and even to this very day i have no desire for a cigarette.
WHATS the point of this? it shows how much the will to quite never gave my any victory over my habbit. Neither can a human will deliver him from sin, because we are all held “captive” by sin, and unless the LORD set us free we will die in them. YOU can will all you want in the flesh, but it will not deliever you either. TRUE RIGHTIOUSNESS IS A CREATION BY GOD “IN” US. ALL wills of man end up in total destruction . Men like to give themselves credit for their salvation by “their” own so-called “freewill” choices, nothing could be further from the truth. “WE ARE SAVED BY “GRACE” OF GOD, AND THAT NOT OF “YOURSELVES” . THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY SO-CALLED “FREEWILL” WHICH BUY THE WAY IS AN OXYMORON, BECAUSE THERE EXISTS NO WILL THAT IS FREE OR IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT BE A WILL AT ALL. Common sense 101, T8.
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Gene, I don’t have to read your post. If you say we are not free to choose among the options, then you have to write off half the Bible. I am not about to do that. So no point in listening to your wisdom if it denies the most basic of truths in scripture that we can choose this day whom we will serve. Seriously, too many here basically teach men to ignore scripture. I am not going to be swayed by that spirit.
t8,
Can a fish choose to breath air or a human vacuum?
You misunderstand free-will if you think it means that we should be able to do that.
Perhaps research what it means, then make an intelligent reply after that.
If there is no free will, then you agree that homosexuals have no choice but to be homosexual because it is not chosen but given.
T8….Do you even know what a WILL really is, Just by understanding it meaning should teachk you there is nothibg “free” about it. The word WILL IS A DESIRE FOR SOMETHING. THAT desire is ’caused’ by influences working in your mind. The things that make up that influences are recieved into a person, and once it is in the mind it “causes” a desire. while i know we are at liberty to excercise that influenced will, that does not make the will “itself” free. I am talking about the very will itself, you are talking about it’s liberty to be excercised.
Homosexual behavior is a taught and learned behavior produced by explicit exposures at an early age, like many sin are. There are ordant desires and there are inordinate desires, LOVE IS AN ORDINATE DESIRE , LUST IS AN INORDINATE DESIRE.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Why does God “give people up” to homosexuality as Paul states He does? Does God just give up on some people? Could he not have rained grace on Sodom and Gomorrah to change them,instead of raining fire and brimstone to destroy them? perhaps His ways are just past finding out?
If we are born slaves to sin then how are our wills free? Even Arminians/most evangelicals and Catholics bemoan our natural sinfulness and even as born again we all still have to fight our old or original sinful nature.
AndrewAD. …right, we are born into a decieved world, with sin everwhere, as JOHN SAID “all that is in the world, the lust of the eyes,the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life comes from the world and the world is passing away and the lusts with it”.
GOD knew in the beginning man would fall eventually he knew man could not of himself by a so-called “freewill” could make always right choices. Even scripture states that, Jer 10:23.. “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps”.
T8 WOULD HAVE US BELIEVE MANS SO-CALLED FREEWILL COULD MAKE ALL THE RIGHT CHOUCES. ADAM AND EVE THOUGHT THEIR OWN RIGHT TO WILL COULD MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE ALSO, BUT WHEN THEY BECAME TEMPTED THEY FELL. God knew from the very beginning the would eventuallt fall, so he added a catlist into the mix (the serpent) why?, to speed up the reaction that would ultimately have happened anyway. WHY., Because God never put in man 5he ability to direct his way properly, just as the quoted scripture in JER 10:23 SHOES ALONG WITH MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES.
Another great proof is found in the thousand year reign of Christ Jesus and the Saints. notice what happens at the end when SATAN IS RELEASED again on the earth, all the world falls away under his evil enfluence even though they had a thousand years of true teaching and even brought up from child hood with them. So what the whole point of the millennial regin , is it not to prove the very point as stated in JER 10:23. That is a very simple point, but a big point in humanity, a point all mankind must come to see. Those who hold on to their own so-called “free” wills will ultimately fail. Truthfully speaking they are, “self” will , which they describe a “freewill” which is an OXYMORON, BECAUSE NO WILL IS “FREE” ITSELF. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
“Homosexual behavior is a taught and learned behavior produced by explicit exposures at an early age, like many sin are.”
But in the case of homosexuality this is not always the case.It’s not always “learned or taught” at an early age. Many adults choose to become that way after experimenting/engaging in homo sex; some become bisexual and some go all the other way. I know this because I’ve met them and talked to them or just heard them talk.
I’ve gone to gay Christian internet sites and been to a Metropolitan church which is a gay Christian church;I have a cousin who is a member at one.They like to teach that they were all born that way,so in a sense it can be blamed on nature or God so to speak:it’s like part of their doctrine. But it’s certainly not always true.I do believe that some people are born that way due to hormones/dna/genetic abnormalities etc., but many become that way for various external reasons also.
With more social acceptance of homosexuality more people are willing to experiment/ engage in it,especially young people.
I’ve heard it taught about how Rome fell to too many men in particular engaging in homosexuality and I do think that may very well be true even though their thinking about it then was different than ours; in that it was based on misogyny,but was nevertheless just bestial lust like it is now imo.
AndrewAD,
But it’s certainly not always true.I do believe that some people are born that way due to hormones/dna/genetic abnormalities etc., but many become that way for various external reasons also.
Are you talking about being tempted by homosexuality or performing homosexual acts?
AndrewAD,
If we are born slaves to sin then how are our wills free?
We are not born with the Spirit and therefore we cannot choose to walk according to its ways. In other words we are have no choice but to walk according to the flesh which is imperfect at best. We may struggle to do what is right and even succeed at times but without the Spirit we have neither the knowledge or the power to to win those struggles every time. In conclusion those without the Spirit but who hunger and thirst for righteousness are wretches before they are given the Spirit and the way to walk according to its teachings. Jesus is that way.
I’m talking about it’s in their nature so of course they are naturally tempted and so most will go that way when the opportunity arises.
And no it’s not like St Hoghead or maybe you say that all are tempted by homosexuality.
AndrewAD,
It is best to think of the words “God handed them over to their sins” as an addiction. In a case of homosexuality it would be a lust addiction. In the case of homosexual God hands the individual which they put before him which is the sin of homosexual actions. Not every homosexual is handed over and I do not know why one is and another is not except to say it is part of his plan.
Note: Everyone that does not have the Spirit has been handed over to sin in general and so has a corrupted mind. I think the degree of that corruption varies from individual to individual.
Ok but even those with the Spirit struggle and fail sometimes too Amen? do you recall ” oh please take not thy spirit from me” or something to that effect? saints sin too and you know it,unless you want to be one of those who say they were never”saved” to begin with. Whichever,it’s all just more religious wrangling.
AndrewAD,
I believe that each temptation is common to all human beings but that some find certain ones so unclean that they simply resist the temptation before they are even aware of it. At that point I am not sure that is can even be called temptation.
AndrewAD,
Saints fail because they are not yet mature so so lack a portion of faith. The goal is to walk by the Spirit at all times and so stumbling is part of the process of achieving that goal. I will not say everyone stumbles but I will say if one then there is a way to regain one feet and walk once more by the Spirit.
If the walking is correlated to actual learning to walk then an infant in Christ may not yet have matured to the point where they can even take a first step but instead need to be fed and encouraged until they mature to take it and then continuously fed to the point they have matured and even beyond.
.” Not every homosexual is handed over and I do not know why one is and another is not except to say it is part of his plan.”
So now you’re saying God is in control and sin is a part of his plan? How gracious of you to agree with your Bible! God bless you!
AndrewAD,
You are seeing what is not in my writing.
God is not a fool so he considers sin in his plan; after all he allows us to choose whether to sin or not and so his plans include our actions.
He does not hand them over to sin that they sin but rather that they consider their actions and perhaps choose to repent and return to him.
kerwin….WHAT do you do with the scriptures that say “because when they know God they glorified him not as God, therefore he turned them over in their “minds” to do those unseemly things” . If we are not being kept by GOD we would all turn to those sinful things imo.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
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