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Hello, t8,
Well, when you are willing to sell you daughter into slavery and refuse to eat ham, then I will assume you are living Scripture to the letter, no cherry picking. But then again, both Christ and Paul seem to have done some real cherry picking on these laws. Paul dropped all the dietary laws, and eventually Peter as well.
Getting back to the Trinity. Your hypothesis is that the Trinity is not to be found in Scripture. Day one, no scholar is about to buy that, as it is an absurd claim, period, end of it. The reason is that the Trinity became such a central Christian dogma precisely because it is about as biblical as you can get. I have pointed several times several key biblical passages that definitely do support it. Not even Arius and company went way off base and claimed it wasn’t biblical. What they claimed was that Christ could not be God, because the Bible said Christ changes and suffers, and God cannot change or suffer, which, incidentally, is in itself contra-Scripture. But that is another story. Now you can call all us scholars and thinkers or the fathers biased or whatever, that won’t alter the fact you claim is bogus to begin with. In your previous post, again, you offered no evidence to back your claim, just a personal attack on me, saying that I am biased. Sorry, pal. You’ll need way bigger guns here than just taking cheap shots at me or other scholars or the fathers, as I just said.
Dear Kerwin,
You say “I believe everyone is homosexual to some point because it is a desire of the flesh but they find it so objectionable that they overcome without being consciously aware”
What kind of goofy statement is that? people overcome it without even being consciously aware of it? is that your convoluted excuse for not consciously overcoming it? How does someone “overcome” what they don’t even realize? You want to accuse everyone of having gay tendencies somehow? I’ll tell you point blank that you are are plain wrong and self deceiving ! It’s a small percentage of people who are homosexual and I guarantee you in spite of what may be your political correctness,or your faulty religious excuse,that I have never had a homosexual urge in my life. Oh so I overcame that when? before I was born? maybe in heaven? or in the womb? As David said in this thread,most of us could not become gay/homo if we tried.
I was nearly sexually molested when I was ten years old by a sixteen year old in the neighborhood,luckily I was able to get away from him;a seven year old did not . Is that maybe when I “overcame” it? but the smaller child did not?
If you’ve read my posts on this subject you should know I don’t hate/condemn homo’s in spite of that,and have even been accused of being one because of my kindness to them,and that when I was a fundamentalist.
Hoghead,
You can call yourself a scholar or theologian in your boastful pride because you went to a big ten school,ivy league or whatever but you should realize that as students of scripture we are all theologians which simply means knowing God.We are all on our own journey and all of us influenced differently.And that’s what I really like about this site;in that it gives room for some various thinking unlike many other fundie sites.
Hello, Andrew,
Look, you are getting into a personal attack on me here, which is inappropriate in any serious discussion. I mentioned about my educational background, so that you could see where I am coming from. Am I proud of it? You bet. Why shouldn’t I be? Do I think I know the material better than other members here? I know I do. That’s not being boastful, that’s just being honest. While we all may be equal in the eyes of God in one sense, that does not mean we are all equal in knowledge or capabilities. God doesn’t intend everyone to be a professor or a minister or a choir director, etc. So, no, we are not all on the same wavelength. Those of us with more are expected to share and teach. When it comes to pride and humility, maybe you should take a long, hard look at yourself. You are a lay person, you have not had the advantage of any really advanced education in theology, biblical studies, church history, or related areas. You skimmed over some Scripture , skimmed over some material on the Trinity. You came to the conclusion that since the Trinity does not make sense to you, that you can’t se how it fits with the Bible, it must not be there, and anyone who tells you it is, no matter if they are a historic church father or scholar, is entirely wrong and biased. So your whole basic premise is illogical, to start with, and essentially a boastful claim that you are far smarter and wiser and spiritually close to God than any and all of these saints, scholars, and major leaders.
hoghead1….It is simply amazing how highely you esteem yourself in your own eyes, pride has caused you not to listen to anyone who disagrees with you,nor any scripture that does also. Amazing i have not ever seen anyone that has come here in the past ten years with so high exultation of self as you do. You are preaching yourself and your accomplishment as somehow more supior then the actual bible text we all have, not to even mention the gift of the spirit of truth we have recieved from GOD theough JESUS the CHRIST, that enables us to see through you and YOUR “MODERN” religious garbage you spue out here. Return to the simplicity of GOD’S WORDS, before you elevate yourself so highely you lose site of complete reality of truth. “GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, AND GIVES “GRACE” TO THE HUMBLE”, we are told.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
AndrewAd,
What kind of goofy statement is that? people overcome it without even being consciously aware of it? is that your convoluted excuse for not consciously overcoming it?
You are letting your lack of knowledge show though I should have said think as opposed to the more vague believe.
My wording is to some point based on confidence that the unconscious thought theory is correct. It also uses evidence from Galatians 5. In addition I have used alcoholism and other things of the flesh and information about their causes as a type.
Scriptural confirmation is in Romans which explicitly describes homosexuality and speaks of God handing people over to their “gods” and saying let them save you. It also mention a sample of other sins that the same principle applies.
I am so confident of it that I believe that researchers have already reached the same conclusion. They are cautious and so might not voice that yet. So no, I am not state something goofy.
Hoghead and T8,
Hello, t8,
Well, then the question becomes: Why find them so objectionable? Also, are you saying you have deep-seated homosexual impulses you are continually struggling to keep repressed? If so , better see a therapist. Bad for your psychical economy to have to expend so much energy in your defense system. Also, if you don’t mind me asking, how much experience have you had in dealing with homosexuals?
This should have been addressed to me.
I did not say I found homosexuals objectionable but instead spoke of a third party that found homosexual desires objectionable. I may or may not belong to that party but that is irrelevant to my argument.
Therapist are experts (?) of the flesh and not the Spirit. Just seeing one is admitting you are living by the flesh and not by the Spirit. In addition they practice squishy science though some have some amazing insight and certain pharmaceuticals they prescribe can aid in keeping the demons at bay.
Of course you do not consider the words I am addressing with my last paragraph a flame attack. 🙂
Hello again, Kerwin,
You say that researchers have reached the same conclusion? What same conclusion? What researchers? As I mentioned n an earlier post, modern psychiatry no longer stigmatizes gays and lesbians as having mental-health disorders.
Hoghead,
Modern psychology is hogwash as science is not a democratic process. Any time I see suppose practitioners voting on something or having a board decide it I winch. In short certain psychologists chose not to label homosexuality a mental disease because they voted on it and played political games with it. No self respecting scientist would accept such an unscientific method.
Mind that agree that it is not but only because I am convinced it is a desire of the flesh. Is there a psychological element. Probability as there often is reasons a human makes the choices they do. Sometimes it is pretty obvious such as when the homosexual has issues with a religious parent. Of course such individuals may take another path such as converting to Atheism or another religion they believe their hated parent will object to.
Sans the democratic and corporate means of reaching a conclusion there are other flaws in their methods as they use unreliable evidence such as that based on statistics and at times too small of a sample size.
Hoghead,
Psychologists still study it though not as a mental illness. It is under sexual orientation and according to them has nothing to do with actual sexual activity as for example a gay man could have sex with a woman and self identify as gay if only to himself. I am not even sure they have to engage in sex with a partner of the same sex. It is fairly convoluted stuff based on some esoteric thought.
To all, the word “GAY” is a misnomer, they are just SEXUAL PERVERTS, who according to scripture have not worshiped GOD AS A GOD when they knew him, and as a result he turned them over in their “minds”, to do those unseenly things” . NOW did that start with the sin of Adam or is it an individual thing, would be the question. If it started with Adam and spread, then the problem would effect everyone whose mind is not being kept by God. IMO
peace and love to you all and yours. ……..gene
Hello Hoghead,
I apologize for using the term “boastful pride” and I suppose it does sound like a personal attack. I was just pointing out how we are all theologians.And I do appreciate your comments here.
And as far as trinity goes I’ve been thought of as one here since I do see how it is inferred from the bible and as i’ve said I don’t have much problem with it anymore.I’m not as many others here constantly hating or disparaging on it. You should know that if you paid attention to my posts.
And no I never claimed to be smarter or above “the fathers”. In case you don’t recall it was who have brought up Augustine,Calvin,Luther and did I hate and despise on them? I don’t think so. You are being rather hateful in accusing me of such.
I
Hoghead,
Furthermore how do I claim to be closer to God than you or the”fathers” just because I accuse you of being boastful and being a modalist? I pointed out the fact that you are a modalist and not a trin and then you accuse me of calling you a heretic.Which I did not. You make assumptions about me in an accusatory spirit. We are talking bible or theology here are we not? Did I intimate about salvation or our personal relationship with a god or gods?
In rereading your last post to me here you accuse me of all kinds of stuff that I am not guilty of and if you didn’t come off as boastful I wouldn’t have said what i did.That’s great that you have more schooling than any of the rest of us here but when it comes to religion and the bible you know it’s not like mathematics,certainly no exact science. You claim to be a trin and a modalist and a universalist and I suppose the biblical authors and the church fathers all thought the same as you? You know they did not and they all disagreed with each other on many other points as well.
Kerwin,
I don’t pretend to have all knowledge or know all mysteries so it is still a mystery to me how one overcomes what they are not aware of or have never even been tempted by.
Hello, Kerwin,
My goodness, do tell. Here I majored in the subject and even earned a graduate degree and had absolutely no idea. Well, it’s just too bad I didn’t have you for an instructor.
HI, Kerwin,
Well, I guess those of us who have worked as psychotherapists won’t be on your Chrisman cared list. What a shame.
He, Andrew,
I think you have kind of gone way off the deep end, in your comments about my posts. In some matters, yes, I agree with the fathers; in others, no. Is that a problem for you or what?
Hoghead1,
Who knows what political correct garbage you were taught in your university as I have been taught some as well. They just want to make us elites.:) I expect you to know more about but why did you fail to know that they used an unscientific method to determine that homosexuality was not a mental disease. They could have done by tyrannical declaration and it would have been scientifically valid. “The emperor declare homosexuality is not a mental disease therefore it is not scientifically a mental disease.” 🙂 Don’t think it is only psychology that does that as astronomy determined Pluto was a dwarf planet by the majority decision of a small corporate entity and everyone else fell in line.
I do not know much about sexual orientation but it was a discovery I made that was new to me as I did not know they were the one that originated before it became political in nature. No doubt politics get it wrong. That is evidence that Psychologists figure that there is a mental element to it. So if you had read what I actually said then you would have known that they essentially agree with that part of what I said and not bring up the fact they no longer consider homosexuality a mental illness. That brings up my grievance caused by so called experts mixing politics with science and calling it science.
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