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Hi TT,
Do you think that if you keep saying God is His own messenger angel it will become true?How many angels are GOD?
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,03:02) Job 16:19-21 says: 19 Even NOW my witness is in heaven;
my Advocate is on high.20 My Intercessor IS my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;21 on behalf of a man He pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend. NIVHeaven Net friends,
Jesus Christ pre-existed His birth. Note that Job said that his Advocate is in heaven “even NOW.” Job knew his Advocate for he said, “He IS my friend.” He said that his Advocate “pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend.”The apostle John said that our Advocate is Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). And Paul said that there is ony ONE mediator between God and man, “Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Okay Jodi Lee and Gene, if Christ was not pre-existent then who was Job's advocate? There is only ONE advocate or would you say two? If you say two then show it.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Job is saying that his testimony (the life that he has lived) testifies in his behalf in heaven and says nothing about Jesus pre-existing his birth into this world by the virgin Mary.
Love in Christ,
MartySo Jack,
Let me get this strait our Creator, YHWH you say is TWO people. When YHWH says that He ALONE, THYSELF, created heaven and earth, you mean that to represent both the Father and Jesus? I am just rather confused, and I have asked this before, and it applies to both how the word ‘God’ is used and how ‘YHWH’ is used…..when we see the word God, does it always represent to you all three, or can it be used for just one of the three? When we see the word YHWH does it always represent both or can it represent just one member, and why is not the Holy Spirit part of your understanding of YHWH? For you there is One God made up of all three, but YHWH is NOT that one God but is a division of God together as two?
You believe that the messenger of YHWH IS YHWH, you believe that Jesus is YHWH, so therefore you believe that YHWH SENT himself to be his own messenger, so why does it say that just the Father sent Jesus, wouldn’t Jesus have sent himself? Why does Jesus say that he does not speak his own words but the words of the Father? Why does Jesus say that he does not follow his own will, but the will of the person who sent him?
Why does Jesus make every effort to explain that he is the Christ, the man the God of Abraham promised to send, but never makes any attempt to explain that he is that God? Why does Jesus go to great effort to explain that the God of Abraham who promised to send him is his Father, and never once says that it is also himself?
Jack, you say that YHWH is God right, made up of the Father and a pre-existent Jesus god. You say that part of YHWH is not all knowing, but the Father is all knowing, therefore the God that makes up the two, is all knowing but not all knowing?
Jack you said, “Then there is the problem in Colossians 1:16. Paul said that “all things were created through Him and for Him.”
If “through” meant “for” as you say then Paul said this: “All things were created for Him and for Him.” This makes no sense! It is clear that Paul meant that all things were created by agency of Him and for Him. To say that Paul meant that all things were created “for” Him and “for” Him is ludicrous.”Take a look at the originally text, the SAME word is used,
Col 1:16 Dias him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created dias him, and dias him:
First OF ALL, the identity of the PERSON of whom all things were created DIAS is the CHRIST, not some god son, the text is speaking of the man who died on the cross!
You cannot take the word Christ and turn it to mean a pre-existent god son, could you seriously be anymore antichrist?
Clossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.……12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
It pleased the Father that in WHOM ALL the FULLNESS should DWELL, his god son, or the MAN who redeemed us through his blood? The CHRIST, the MAN born of the seed of David is the IMAGE of the invisible God! BY the CHRIST, the man born of the seed of David who DIED on the cross, were all things created! We are specifically told that before time began, the CHRIST was promised to come. We are never told that he would come from a pre-existent immortal god. YHWH made the world dias and dias the MAN JESUS THE CHRIST, not for some immortal god. YHWH created heaven and earth THROUGH his knowledge of CHRIST, and FOR CHRIST. Jesus is the BEGINNING of the first HUMAN born of the dead. Somehow we are supose to tie in that he is ALSO the immortal God YHWH? Pure ANTICHRIST preaching!
Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Does this make sense to you Jack,
In the past the pre-existent god Jesus our Heavenly Father, spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of the pre-existent god Jesus our Heavenly Father’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the pre-existent god Jesus our Heavenly Father.
Do not TWIST scripture, what is directly shown in Hebrews is that the SON of whom the FATHER created all things THROUGH, is the MAN Jesus CHRIST. Once again, knowing that in the beginning YHWH had planned for a man to come into the world and bring salvation, there is NO room to create our own understanding and TURN the Christ into a pre-existing god who made the heavens and earth. That is PURE ANTICHRIST preaching!
Let’s clarify a few things,
My discussion of Proverbs 8 from my previous post is separate from my understanding of Isaiah 48:16
Isaiah shows several times that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, he even shows us that YHWH did it thyself alone.
Isa 37:16 `Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, inhabiting the cherubs, Thou [art] God Himself — Thyself alone — to all kingdoms of the earth, Thou hast made the heavens and the earth.
What do we see in Isaiah 48:11,
For My sake, for Mine own sake, I do it, For how is it polluted? And Mine honour to another I give not. 12 Hearken to me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called one, I am He, I am first, and I am last; 13 Also, My hand hath founded earth, And My right hand stretched out the heavens, I am calling unto them, they stand together. 14 Be gathered all of you, and hear, Who among them did declare these things? Jehovah hath loved him, He doth His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm is on the Chaldeans. 15 I — I have spoken, yea, I have called him, I have brought him in, And he hath made prosperous his way.
YHWH our Heavenly Father is speaking and the he of whom He is speaking of is the man Jesus. The Father is calling the people that they stand together and He has chosen to call the people through the man Jesus our Christ. The people shall be gathered together and listen to the Christ DECLARE the works of his Father. YHWH the Father hath love Jesus, and Jesus doth the Father’s pleasure! YHWH our heavenly Father has spoken and has called Jesus and brought him forth and has caused Jesus to prosper in his ways.
Jesus says,
16 Come ye near unto me, hear this, Not from the beginning in secret spake I, From the time of its being, there am I, And now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and His Spirit.
Isaiah is quoting Jesus, the man born of the seed of David, by a VISION, not through a pre-existent immortal god Jesus. Notice how it shows Jesus is speaking FROM the time that he was sent, obviously Jesus was not yet born during the time of Isaiah, this is EXACTLY why Isaiah is KNOWN as being YHWH’s PROPHET!
There exists NO pre-existing Jesus in the above, only a perfect example of Isaiah truly being a prophet!However, Jack teaches that Jesus pre-existed as YHWH, and he wants us to believe that as it says YHWH sent, that means that He was actually sending part of himself. He wants us to believe that the person who was sent, was sent by himself.
Does Jesus say that he sent himself?
Does he say that he spoke his own words?
Does he say that he came to do his own will?
What we are to truly understand is that in the beginning YHWH, our heavenly Father, made a promise before He even created heaven and earth that He would produce heavenly men to live for an eternity on it. So before He even created heaven and earth He formed a plan that by one man, sin would enter the world, but by another, sin would be removed! He then created heaven and earth through this man and for this man, who would become the beginning, the first human raised from the dead to receive the promise. The WORD of YHWH’s promise became flesh when Jesus was born, the WORD of YHWH was fulfilled when Jesus died and was raised with eternal life. If we believe that Jesus is in fact the MAN of the promise, then we should be ECSTATIC, for we know that YHWH fulfills His promises, and as He raised Jesus from the dead it is His promise that He will give eternal life to us as well.
Hi Jodi,
Jesus was a man by the definition and proclamation of scripture.
You should not think this must also relate to his unique origins.Truly Jack, I really wouldn't expect you to understand, even the simplest truths in the bible you manage to completely misinterpret, twist and in some cases deny all together.
In the beginning YHWH had a PLAN because He KNEW ahead of time the sins of man, and in the beginning He knew that He would be displeased and saddened with how they would behave without His working Spirit. In the beginning YHWH rejoiced over His foreknowledge of the coming Christ, and He rejoiced knowing His plan that would bring righteousness and eternal life.
Ge 6:6 and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself — unto His heart.
This is not written so that we think that YHWH CHANGED HIS MIND about man, as if He did NOT KNOW that man would become exceedingly sinful. We know FROM scripture that in fact YHWH knew from the beginning that man would be exceedingly sinful. This is written so we understand that YHWH does not like nor accepts sinful behavior, and that there is a purpose for everything done under the sun, and eventually sin will not have a place to exist.
YHWH KNOWS what is going to happen before it happens. how else would we have PROPHETS! Prophets speak of the future, for YHWH has TOLD them the future. You teach that YHWH makes up TWO people, one person that is all knowing and another that is not?
Your doctrine just becomes more and more confusing and absurd by the minute. “Isa 48:8 Surely you did not hear, Surely you did not know; Surely from long ago your ear was not opened. For I knew that you would deal very treacherously, And were called a transgressor from the womb.
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
Psalms 139:1 To the Overseer. — A Psalm by David. Jehovah, Thou hast searched me, and knowest. 2 Thou — Thou hast known my sitting down, And my rising up, Thou hast attended to my thoughts from afar. 3 My path and my couch Thou hast fanned, And with all my ways hast been acquainted. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, Lo, O Jehovah, Thou hast known it all! 5 Behind and before Thou hast besieged me, And Thou dost place on me Thy hand. 6 Knowledge too wonderful for me, It hath been set on high, I am not able for it.
YHWH is ONE person, He is not two. YHWH is OMNIPRESENT, all of Him.
Hi Jodi,
When man rebelled and submitted to the devil, Satan, the god of this world as the serpent in Genesis then his fruit could only come from the father of lies, the murderer from the beginning.
Forgiveness and rescue from the consequent inevitable condemnation was offered through rebirth of His Spirit by His obedient son, Jesus Christ, and his brothers.
Truly we are taken from the dominion of darkness into the wonderful kingdom of light of God by his grace.Jodi………..You have correctly explained it from Scripture and with Sound understanding. Continue to let the SPIRIT OF GOD Guide you and lean on Him and speak what He gives you, it is solid and encouraging, to those who truly have ears to hear and eyes to see. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene
Jodi Lee said:
Quote You believe that the messenger of YHWH IS YHWH, you believe that Jesus is YHWH, so therefore you believe that YHWH SENT himself to be his own messenger, so why does it say that just the Father sent Jesus, wouldn’t Jesus have sent himself?
I said that the Messenger of YHWH was Jesus who SHARED the name YHWH. I said that the name YHWH is used interchangeably of the Father and of Jesus. I believe what is written. The Messenger of YHWH appeared to Moses as a fire in the midst of a bush and said of Himself, “I am the God of your fathers.” This Messenger was Jesus.Jodi Lee:
Quote You say that part of YHWH is not all knowing, but the Father is all knowing, therefore the God that makes up the two, is all knowing but not all knowing?
How will you prove your theory that YHWH was just play acting for Abraham's sake? YHWH was contemplating with in HimselfNew English Bible:
Quote The LORD thought to himself, “Shall I conceal from Abraham what I intend to do….” Contemporary English version:
Quote The LORD said to himself, “I should tell Abraham what I am going to do….”
YHWH did not address Abraham. All that YHWH said from verses 17-22 is inward contemplation. YHWH was speaking within Himself when He said “I will go down and see …I will know.” Explain how YHWH's contemplations could have been play acting for Abraham's benefit when Abraham could not have known YHWH's thoughts?It is clear that YHWH did not know and His own inward contemplations prove it beyond any doubt. Therefore, YHWH here cannot be the Father because the Father knew all things at once and did not need to contemplate a matter. Therefore, YHWH in this narrative is clearly Jesus.
Jodi Lee:
Quote you said, “Then there is the problem in Colossians 1:16. Paul said that “all things were created through Him and for Him.”
If “through” meant “for” as you say then Paul said this: “All things were created for Him and for Him.” This makes no sense! It is clear that Paul meant that all things were created by agency of Him and for Him. To say that Paul meant that all things were created “for” Him and “for” Him is ludicrous.”Take a look at the originally text, the SAME word is used,
Col 1:16 Dias him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created dias him, and dias him:
This is the height of your deceit Jodi. The words are NOT “dias” and “dias” but “dia” and “eis.”Quote …all things were created di' him, and eis him: I wish you would not have done this. I am forced now to seriously doubt that you are honest. Giving you the benefit of the doubt from here on will be quite difficult for me. Paul said “dia” and “eis.” Be advised that I took two years of Greek in college so don't do this again.
Paul did not say that “all things were created for Him and for Him.” This is total nonsense. He said that all things were created THROUGH (dia) Him and FOR (eis) Him.
Jodi lee:
Quote You cannot take the word Christ and turn it to mean a pre-existent god son, could you seriously be anymore antichrist?
Take it up with the apostle Paul and God the Father (Hebrews 1).You have just called most anti-trinitarians here antichrist. You need to take the beam out of your own eye. You have been manipulating language to fit your Gnostic presuppositions. Now you have gone so far as to deceitfully substitute a word in the Greek text.
thinker
p.s. I accidentally deleted my original reply and so this one is much shorter. I was not going to do it all again.
thinker
Hi TT,
Gnostic teaching is that Jesus is God.
You should believe what he said -that he is the Son of that God.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,05:09) I said that the Messenger of YHWH was Jesus who SHARED the name YHWH. I said that the name YHWH is used interchangeably of the Father and of Jesus. I believe what is written. The Messenger of YHWH appeared to Moses as a fire in the midst of a bush and said of Himself, “I am the God of your fathers.” This Messenger was Jesus.
Exodus 3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father–the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.A MESSENGER OF God came to speak the words of God, everything the messenger said therefore was God's words. Your argument to PROVE Jesus existed in the Old Testament as YHWH is truly and utterly pathetic IMO, I'm not sure why I even bother responding at this point, because your argument I find embarrassing for you.
The messenger speaking, IS NOT the God of Abraham, the person using the messenger to speak His words IS!
Mark 12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
The messenger did not say HIMSELF, that he was the God of Abraham, the messenger was speaking for YHWH, and YHWH IS the God of Abraham. This could not be more OBVIOUS given the fact that the person who appears before Moses is said TO BE a messenger OF the Lord.
Jesus in Mark and Luke, as well as much of the NT, shows that he is NOT the God of Abraham.
Luke 20:37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
Jesus is NOT the God of the Living, the God of the Living is the Father, and as The Spirit of the Father raised Jesus from the dead giving him eternal life He will do the same for us.
Ac 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
Hebrews 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
Jesus IS NOT the God of Abraham, the Father is the God of Abraham. Jesus is the SERVANT and High Priest FOR the God of Abraham, and of course ………he is His SON! Jesus is the MAN the firstborn of the dead, and the BROTHER to Abraham and the King over Abraham.
Jodi………Good post, our problem here is that we are dealing with deluded and confusion impressed for years on the minds and LOGIC and understanding without the Spirit of Truths guidance has taken it's toll on their thinking. Almost nothing they say makes any since and has no soundness. Every affirmation they make is contradicted by others scriptures , but yet they continue trusting in these lies they have learned to except. Unless GOD grants them understanding and soundness, his words they will remain deluded and confused. May GOD the FATHER Help us all to come unto the (UNITY) of the FAITH.
peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,05:09) Jodi Lee: Quote You say that part of YHWH is not all knowing, but the Father is all knowing, therefore the God that makes up the two, is all knowing but not all knowing?
How will you prove your theory that YHWH was just play acting for Abraham's sake? YHWH was contemplating with in HimselfNew English Bible:
Quote The LORD thought to himself, “Shall I conceal from Abraham what I intend to do….” Contemporary English version:
Quote The LORD said to himself, “I should tell Abraham what I am going to do….”
YHWH did not address Abraham. All that YHWH said from verses 17-22 is inward contemplation. YHWH was speaking within Himself when He said “I will go down and see …I will know.” Explain how YHWH's contemplations could have been play acting for Abraham's benefit when Abraham could not have known YHWH's thoughts?It is clear that YHWH did not know and His own inward contemplations prove it beyond any doubt. Therefore, YHWH here cannot be the Father because the Father knew all things at once and did not need to contemplate a matter. Therefore, YHWH in this narrative is clearly Jesus.
I think we should look at the entire chapter,YLT
Genesis 18:1 And Jehovah appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day; 2 and he lifteth up his eyes and looketh, and lo, three men standing by him, and he seeth, and runneth to meet them from the opening of the tent, and boweth himself towards the earth, 3 And he saith, `My Lord, if, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, do not, I pray thee, pass on from thy servant;Surely these THREE MEN are not Jesus! Surely they are not themselves YHWH! They are Messengers of YHWH, and as Abraham knows that they speak to him from YHWH, he in turn speaks to them AS YHWH.
4 let, I pray thee, a little water be accepted, and wash your feet, and recline under the tree; 5 and I bring a piece of bread, and support ye your heart; afterwards pass on, for therefore have ye passed over unto your servant;' and they say, `So mayest thou do as thou has spoken.' 6 And Abraham hasteth towards the tent, unto Sarah, and saith, `Hasten three measures of flour-meal, knead, and make cakes;' 7 and Abraham ran unto the herd, and taketh a son of the herd, tender and good, and giveth unto the young man, and he hasteth to prepare it; 8 and he taketh butter and milk, and the son of the herd which he hath prepared, and setteth before them; and he is standing by them under the tree, and they do eat.
9 And they say unto him, `Where is Sarah thy wife?' and he saith, `Lo — in the tent;' 10 and he saith, `returning I return unto thee, about the time of life, and lo, to Sarah thy wife a son.' 11 And Sarah is hearkening at the opening of the tent, which is behind him; 12 and Abraham and Sarah are aged, entering into days — the way of women hath ceased to be to Sarah; 13 and Sarah laugheth in her heart, saying, `After I have waxed old I have had pleasure! — my lord also is old!' 14 And Jehovah saith unto Abraham, `Why is this? Sarah hath laughed, saying, Is it true really — I bear — and I am aged? Is any thing too wonderful for Jehovah? at the appointed time I return unto thee, about the time of life, and Sarah hath a son.' 15 And Sarah denieth, saying, `I did not laugh;' for she hath been afraid; and He saith, `Nay, but thou didst laugh.'Jack, are you going to tell me that these THREE MEN, are actually Jesus and are actually YHWH themselves? The messenger of YHWH is NEVER YHWH, but is the messenger OF YHWH!
16 And the men rise from thence, and look on the face of Sodom, and Abraham is going with them to send them away; 17 and Jehovah said, `Am I concealing from Abraham that which I am doing, 18 and Abraham certainly becometh a nation great and mighty, and blessed in him have been all nations of the earth? 19 for I have known him, that he commandeth his children, and his house after him (and they have kept the way of Jehovah), to do righteousness and judgment, that Jehovah may bring on Abraham that which He hath spoken concerning him.'
YHWH is speaking here to the messengers. NOTICE how YHWH KNOWS the FUTURE! YHWH is concealing from Abraham that which YHWH is doing, which is making the descendants of Abraham a great and mighty nation. Sarah is yet to have any children, yet YHWH is speaking about knowing that Abraham will be a righteous leader unto his children.
Now in the following we see the three men speaking FOR YHWH unto Abraham.
20 And Jehovah saith, `The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah — because great; and their sin — because exceeding grievous: 21 I go down now, and see whether according to its cry which is coming unto Me they have done completely — and if not — I know;' 22 and the men turn from thence, and go towards Sodom; and Abraham is yet standing before Jehovah.
There is NO Jesus, there are three men, and they are speaking as YHWH, for they are His messenger. YHWH just spoke about KNOWING the future, He does not need to come down to see what is actually going on, as I said before He is speaking to provoke thought into Abraham as to move a conversation with Abraham into a certain direction.
23 And Abraham draweth nigh and saith, `Dost Thou also consume righteous with wicked? 24 peradventure there are fifty righteous in the midst of the city; dost Thou also consume, and not bear with the place for the sake of the fifty — the righteous who are in its midst? 25 Far be it from Thee to do according to this thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked; that it hath been — as the righteous so the wicked — far be it from Thee; doth the Judge of all the earth not do justice?' 26 And Jehovah saith, `If I find in Sodom fifty righteous in the midst of the city, then have I borne with all the place for their sake.' 27 And Abraham answereth and saith, `Lo, I pray thee, I have willed to speak unto the Lord, and I — dust and ashes; 28 peradventure there are lacking five of the fifty righteous — dost Thou destroy for five the whole of the city?' and He saith, `I destroy it not, if I find there forty and five.' 29 And he addeth again to speak unto Him and saith, `Peradventure there are found there forty?' and He saith, `I do [it] not, because of the forty.' 30 And he saith, `Let it not be, I Pray thee, displeasing to the Lord, and I speak: peradventure there are found there thirty?' and He saith, `I do it not, if I find there thirty.' 31 And he saith, `Lo, I pray thee, I have willed to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there are found there twenty?' and He saith, `I do not destroy it, because of the twenty.' 32 And he saith, `Let it not be, I pray Thee, displeasing to the Lord, and I speak only this time: peradventure there are found there ten?' and H
e saith, `I do not destroy [it], because of the ten.' 33 And Jehovah goeth on, when He hath finished speaking unto Abraham, and Abraham hath turned back to his place.The conversation was all for the instruction of Abraham. Just as YHWH knew before hand about Abraham’s descendants, He knew exactly what He was going to do with Sodom and Gomorrah before speaking with Abraham.
There exists ONE God over Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jesus declares that God to be His FATHER! Totally outrageous to teach that Jesus pre-existed as YHWH, and that YHWH exists as two separate people, one who is all knowing and one who is not.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,05:09) Jodi Lee: Quote you said, “Then there is the problem in Colossians 1:16. Paul said that “all things were created through Him and for Him.”
If “through” meant “for” as you say then Paul said this: “All things were created for Him and for Him.” This makes no sense! It is clear that Paul meant that all things were created by agency of Him and for Him. To say that Paul meant that all things were created “for” Him and “for” Him is ludicrous.”Take a look at the originally text, the SAME word is used,
Col 1:16 Dias him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created dias him, and dias him:
This is the height of your deceit Jodi. The words are NOT “dias” and “dias” but “dia” and “eis.”Quote …all things were created di' him, and eis him: I wish you would not have done this. I am forced now to seriously doubt that you are honest. Giving you the benefit of the doubt from here on will be quite difficult for me. Paul said “dia” and “eis.” Be advised that I took two years of Greek in college so don't do this again.
Paul did not say that “all things were created for Him and for Him.” This is total nonsense. He said that all things were created THROUGH (dia) Him and FOR (eis) Him.
Jodi lee:
Quote You cannot take the word Christ and turn it to mean a pre-existent god son, could you seriously be anymore antichrist?
Take it up with the apostle Paul and God the Father (Hebrews 1).You have just called most anti-trinitarians here antichrist. You need to take the beam out of your own eye. You have been manipulating language to fit your Gnostic presuppositions.Now you have gone so far as to deceitfully substitute a word in the Greek text.
thinker
When I quote scripture I use crosswalk. com. When I look up translations I use the Lexicon they have there.I AM NOT a DECEITFUL person.
However, I could care less if you think I am, you are under such delusion, that it would make complete sense that you would think I was.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicon….it=Find
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicon….ion=kjv
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicon….ion=kjv
KJV Verse Count
Greek Word: Diav
Transliterated Word: dia
Book to Display: Colossians
Verse Count: 14
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
Col 4:18 The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen.What I posted was based on the above, which is PROOF that I have done NO such deceitful thing as you accuse me of.
We should as well take a look at the following so there is NO confusion,
Concerning the word 'eis'
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicon….it=Find
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicon….ion=kjv
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicon….ion=kjv
KJV Verse Count
Greek Word: Eijß
Transliterated Word: eis
Book to Display: Colossians
Verse Count: 18
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 4:8 Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that he might know your estate, and comfort your hearts;
Col 4:11 And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.When I made my post, the one that Jack accused me of deceitfully substituting words, I had only looked up the word 'through'. I just found the following NOW, after looking up the word 'for'.
Strong's Number: 1223 Browse Lexicon
Original WordWord Origin
diava primary preposition denoting the channel of an act
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Dia2:65,149
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
dee-ah' Preposition
Definition1. through
1. of place
1. with
2. in
2. of time
1. throughout
2. during
3. of means
1. by
2. by the means of
2. through
1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1.by reason of
2. on account of
3. because of for this reason
4. therefore
5. on this accountKing James Word Usage – Total: 646
by 241, through 88, with 16, for 58, for … sake 47, therefore + (5124)&version=kjv 44, for this cause + (5124) 14, because 52, miscellaneous 86=========================================
Strong's Number: 1519 Browse Lexicon
Original WordWord Origin
eij?a primary preposition
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Eis2:420,211
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
ice Preposition
Definition1. into, unto, to, towards, for, among
“For” (as used in Acts 2:38 “for the forgiveness…”) could have twomeanings. If you saw a poster saying “Jesse James wanted forrobbery”, “for” could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit arobbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The latersense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word “for”signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate theentire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.
King James Word Usage – Total: 1774
into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, miscellaneous 322Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 2
BY REASON OF the comming CHRIST, the man born of the seed of David, were all things created! The above scripture mentions NOTHING of a god son creating heaven and earth himself for himself. YHWH created heaven and earth by/through, or rather BY REASON OF, the coming Christ, and YHWH created it FOR the coming Christ! It pleased the FATHER that in CHRIST, the man firstborn of the dead, THAT ALL THE FULLNESS SHOULD DWELL!
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 4:24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
The person who spoke to David was the Father, Jesus did not exist as YHWH speaking to the prophets. The Father spoke to us through the prophets and later spoke to us through a Son. The Father is said to have created heaven and earth, and the Father promised before time began that CHRIST WOULD come and through Christ the Father would save us.
Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Scripture DOES not show that the Father created heaven and earth through having some god son make it himself for His Father, but that is would be for himself. What scripture is clear about is that the Father YHWH did in fact create heaven and earth THYSELF ALONE, as scripture directly tells us! We can see clearly that He did it BECAUSE OF the coming Christ, Jesus, and that He did it FOR Jesus and his body.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,05:09) You have been manipulating language to fit your Gnostic presuppositions. Now you have gone so far as to deceitfully substitute a word in the Greek text.
I have defended myself already that I NEVER deceitfully substituted a word in the Greek text as you falsely accused me of.What I am having a hard time understanding is your other accusation of me being Gnostic. Could you be more specific in HOW it is that you think I am Gnostic? I looked up what Gnostics believe and I would NOT in a million years identify myself as being one.
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