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Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 10 2005,01:40) Can a man have 2 masters?
Can a man follow Jesus and YHWH?
To WhiteMateria,To follow Jesus is to follow his God. To follow Moses was to follow God. If your reasoning were true then the children of Israel shouldn't have followed Moses because they can't serve 2 masters.
But your thinking doesn't take into account that God instates people to represent him. So who are we to reject those whom he has sent?
John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.John 8:16-19
Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”Jhn 5:23 KJV NIV
That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Isa 42:8 KJV NIV
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.To accept and believe what Jesus says as truth one cannot see Jesus as 'another' or else it goes against what YHWH has said. In the first passage Jesus is saying that we should honor him just like we honor the father. Granted that the father has already exclaimed such glory belongs only to himself. If you truely believe in your heart what Jesus said then listen to what else he has to say.
John 12:44 KJV NIV
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.Jhn 8:19 KJV NIV
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.Critical Thinking:
If Moses had given the children of Isreal a new commandment himself would he have such authority?
If Jesus had given us a new commandment himself would he have such authority?To find out lets see what God has to say about his own commandments!
Jesus gives us a new commandment!
Deu 4:2 KJV NIV
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Jhn 13:34 KJV NIV
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.Jesus has the nerve to call himself 'Lord over the Sabbeth' when God has already addressed that 'the sabbath' is 'of the LORD thy God'!
Exodus 20:8-10 KJV NIV
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:Luke 6:1-5 KJV NIV
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.Jesus has the nerve to add to God's law concerning adultry!
Exd 20:14 KJV NIV
Thou shalt not commit adultery.Matthew 5:27-28 KJV NIV
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.Critical Thinking:
How many of the other commandments did Jesus Christ have the nerve to add to?Jesus made it clear who he was by what he did. You can call him ethier insane for going against that which was reserved for God or you can open your mind. He did not leave room open for middle ground. He did not intend to.
To WhiteMateria,
I use these verses because they are the truth. That God has a son and he expects us to obey and serve him, for in doing so, we do it to God.
The son is the image of God and the first-born of/over all creation. He is like him and God has exhalted his son to sit with him on his throne to rule his creation. The son is visible and his God is invisible.
The Father is God and the son is the son of God.
There is no reference here that the son is actually God himself is there? I use these verses in the correct context.
All who have the son have God and all who have God have the son too. It talks of two. God and his son. Not this man-made God with 3 heads.
Time and time again I see people bunch things together that have the same qualities. This is done because they have a pre-determined belief that not even scripture will talk them out of.
Quote Paul Younan: For anyone still unsure of whether or not the Peshitta boldly proclaims that Yeshua IS Jehovah, here is the entry from Avraham's dictionary:
The above quote is posted at this link at the bottom of the page:
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 09 2005,07:02) Jhn 5:23 KJV NIV
That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Isa 42:8 KJV NIV
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.To accept and believe what Jesus says as truth one cannot see Jesus as 'another' or else it goes against what YHWH has said. In the first passage Jesus is saying that we should honor him just like we honor the father. Granted that the father has already exclaimed such glory belongs only to himself. If you truely believe in your heart what Jesus said then listen to what else he has to say.
John 12:44 KJV NIV
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.Jhn 8:19 KJV NIV
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.Critical Thinking:
If Moses had given the children of Isreal a new commandment himself would he have such authority?
If Jesus had given us a new commandment himself would he have such authority?To find out lets see what God has to say about his own commandments!
Jesus gives us a new commandment!
Deu 4:2 KJV NIV
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Jhn 13:34 KJV NIV
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.Jesus has the nerve to call himself 'Lord over the Sabbeth' when God has already addressed that 'the sabbath' is 'of the LORD thy God'!
Exodus 20:8-10 KJV NIV
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:Luke 6:1-5 KJV NIV
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.Jesus has the nerve to add to God's law concerning adultry!
Exd 20:14 KJV NIV
Thou shalt not commit adultery.Matthew 5:27-28 KJV NIV
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.Critical Thinking:
How many of the other commandments did Jesus Christ have the nerve to add to?Jesus made it clear who he was by what he did. You can call him ethier insane for going against that which was reserved for God or you can open your mind. He did not leave room open for middle ground. He did not intend to.
To WhiteMateria,You substantially changed your post which rendered any replying posts as unintelligible or hard to follow. This type of practice disrupts the discussion and wastes the time of those who spend their time replying to you. Another member had also done this a while back. So to curb this practice, I have no choice but to take this editing priviledge away. It will remain intact for the 'Admins' and 'Dedicated Members' groups only.
I have posted a general message about this in the 'Notices' read only forum.
I must say this is something that we are looking at currently. To determine, if possible, that YHWH refers to Yeshua in the OT and not necessarily the Father. If anyone has any information or has studied this, please share. GBU – Happy Jesus Day!
Hi Dianalevich,
I think that YHWH refers to the Father, but he deligates and send others to represent him. No one can see God, the only begotten son is the only one who can declare him. Let me know if you have anything to say or add here.
Thanks for your post. Hopefully we will all discover truths together and be of one mind.
T8 = Heaven = T8 = Heaven
Weird! I guess it makes your view “appear” more popular even though it is not.
t8,
You wrote:
How many saviors are there? How many gods are there?
How many lords are there?
Is there 1 God, yet it says: “there are many “gods”
and many “lords”.Then you refer to 1 corinthians 8:5-6 pointing out
“For even if there are so-called gods”
Paul is not teaching there are many gods, surely you
realize that “so called” does not mean real true gods,
but rather to false gods.Then you go on to say:
“6 yet for us there is but one God, the
Father,….there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,…”So my question for you is if the term “ONE God” means
that Jesus is “a lesser god” then wouldn't that mean
that the term “one Lord”, here clearly identified as
Jesus, would make the Father “a lesser Lord” than
Jesus?If Jesus being referred to as the one Lord, does not
make the Father a lesser Lord than Jesus, then why
would the term one God, referring to the Father, make
Jesus a lesser god than the Father?Also, if the Father is the TRUE god, than all other
gods must be false.Even you agree Jesus is referred to as “a Mighty God”
So is Jesus as “a Mighty God”, a false god or the True
God?You also wrote:
John 5:23
that all may honor the Son “just as” they honor the
Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor
the Father, who sent him.What does “just as” mean to you?
How do you honor the Father? Do you Honor Jesus “JUST
AS you honor the Father. Or do you honor Jesus
“differently.You honor the Father by Prayer?
You honor the Father by worship?
Etc.
Do you honor the Son “JUST AS” you honor the Father?
Do you honor the Son by praying to HIM, “just as” you
do the Father?Do you honor the Son by worship, “just as” you worship
the Father?Very good post stroshow. I agree 100%.
I also would like t8, Nick Hassan and Cubes to answer this question:Quote If Jesus being referred to as the one Lord, does not
make the Father a lesser Lord than Jesus, then why
would the term one God, referring to the Father, make
Jesus a lesser god than the Father?Also, if the Father is the TRUE god, than all other
gods must be false.Even you agree Jesus is referred to as “a Mighty God”
So is Jesus as “a Mighty God”, a false god or the True
God?
True God or false God/god, which is it?Hi Laurreaus:
I haven't read stroshow's post yet but hope to in the near future:
If you consider the entirety of scripture, you would realize that Jesus is made Lord by the Father, whereas the Father is not made God by any other. Also all things have their origin in the Father. He is:
The Father of Lights, as opposed to Jesus being the Light or Light of the world of which thing we are called similarly.
The Father is “only thou art holy” and “Holy Father” and Holy, Holy, Holy and the Holy One, and The Holy One of Israel.
Jesus is the Holy one of God.The Father is the Only True God, whereas Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
The Way to where? He is not the destination.
An indepth understanding of the True God in relation to his son and to us, can perhaps be best understood in the epistles of John.Jesus is the Life but he is given us by God (John 4: If you knew the gift of God and who it is that stands before you… he was referring to the Father's gift which is himself).
Moreover Jesus has life in himself but he received it from His Father.The Father is the True God because and the only one who is holy and good because everybody else, including Jesus, derive these attributes from him.
Jesus is A true God/god, after the Father who is The True God and Almighty God and Most High God.
Because all things derive from him and by his will, that is what makes him the God above all.
Hope that satisfies your question, Laurreaus.
Hi L,
What does “a god” mean to you?Is it a godlike being of divine nature
or
A being to be worshipped?Clarification:
Jesus is the Life but he is given us by God (John 4: If you knew the gift of God and who it is that stands before you… he was referring to the Father's gift which is himself [Jesus]).
Moreover Jesus has life in himself but he received it from His Father.
The Father is the True God, the only one who is holy and good — because everybody else, including Jesus, derive these attributes/qualities from him.
Hi L,
John 1.1 calls Jesus the Word, God who was with God. Phil 2.6 tells us he had divine nature but did not seek equality with that God,his Father.
Jesus said “the Father is greater than I” so his status was never equal with God though he was above all other beings who were created through him.
Jesus is godly by nature but not worshipped as another deity.A false god is made so by false worship and false worshippers. If you worship a stone that stone becomes for you “a god”, a false god. It is a god though it has no life in itself. It cannot hear or act but you can create it as a god.
Quote (Cubes @ July 11 2005,03:49) The Father is the True God, the only one who is holy and good — because everybody else, including Jesus, derive these attributes/qualities from him.
Hi Cubes,
Then Jesus must be a false God/god.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2005,03:55) Jesus said “the Father is greater than I” so his status was never equal with God
Nick Hassan,
Epistemaniac has already put you straight on this one. Go back and read his post to you again.HiL,
E has put no one straight. I listen to his views too but do not hear the voice of the Spirit in them very much. I love the Word of God and the reflections of men have to be assimilated according to that truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2005,21:38) HiM,
You quote Jesus as saying he is the saviour. When did he say that exactly?
When exactly did I quote Jesus Christ?Once again you have put things out of perspective.
Titus 3:6 (KJV) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
This should tell you that someone else called Jesus Christ our Savior. Who were these someone elses? The early Christians – many of whom were Jews before converting to Christian.
So if they had been Jews they would have followed Jewish Law and the OT scrolls.
To abandon what YHWH said about himself being the ONLY savior would be a most grevious error. If indeed what you believe to be true today then you are showing that…
These Jews abandoned…
> YHWH
> their religion
> what the scrolls say
> what God himself had saidwhen they became Christian and exclaimed with readiness of mind that….
some other being…
some other entity…
someone seperate from YHWH…could possably be…
their savior as well.
For this to happen these men would be in error going against the Word of God.
A firefighter can save your life for only a short while but you will still die. Who can save people after they have died from hell? God has already established grounds for that claim alone. If Jesus Christ were to take away something most precious that God has alone then something is lost. Basically in a sense Jesus has stolen God's thunder, unless of course we open our minds to the possability that Jesus is God incarnete.
If you say that no man has seen God at any time in all of his glory… then I may argue that Jesus Christ is a manifestation of God since he is the image of the invisable God.
We compare it to the likes of Clark Kent and Superman. Jesus Christ while on this world had the means to use his powers for healing, raising the dead, and just enough for those around him to believe in him, but he remained most humble. Humble enough indeed not to send legions of angels to help him when he was arested in the Garden. Jesus showed only but a small show of his power but we never saw him in his full glory. But it tells of a next time when Jesus returns that we will see him in his full glory.
Are you really going to sit there and let your beliefs guide you to find the early Christians abandoning God and clinging to something else? Think carefully about what you are doing and you may open your mind and heart to the truth.
God left no room for middle ground. Jesus left no room for middle ground. He did not intend to!
And not in just reguards to being their Savior as well as YHWH but Jesus went around adding to God's law. Do you remember when Jesus said that its not what we eat that make us unclean but what comes out of a man's heart?
In that statement alone he must have taken away ALL that God said about what the Jews shall not eat. Unclean animals and the likes – And this was not even one of the 10 commandments. How well did Jesus understand what he was doing? Oh so very very well…
God just said you shall not add or take away a word from my commandments!
Jesus went even FURTHER to say that you shall not take away the smallest character until all was fullfilled and he said it before he died so all had NOT been fullfilled! – yea… even to teach anyone else to disobey the least of the commandments. The verses I speak of in these examples should come to mind and if not I can pull them up for you.
Jesus understand well what he was doing would be most blasphemous in the eyes of every single person around him had he been anyone other than He who came up with those laws to begin with. In otherwords that would be God himself. For the early Jews to convert to Christian and follow Jesus Christ would be following a diety who added to God's word and even took away from God's word and even came up with his own new commandment! God warned against this in his Word during the Old Testiment times… If Jesus Christ is not God then you are following someone else who has changed God's law. If that is the case then why are you even a Christian?
Jesus understand very very well the implications of God's Word.
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