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Quote Sorry david, I have kind of lost track of what you are saying. Are you arguing with yourself, or someone else. Who is someone else BTW? Hey T8. Since there is no hope of unoquivically proving John 1:1 either way in peoples minds right now, I was having a conversation with myself (someone else), but based on a much clearer scripture.
david
Well David, you will be ok, as long as you don't hear that someone of yourself speak back to you with an audible voice.
However, how about dis-proving my post number Posted: Feb. 04 2006,00:24 with scriptures in this same thread ?
Or, will we both be banned from the forum for getting off the subject topic here, as I was told once ?
Or, will T8 be banned from the forum too?
Quote Sorry david, I have kind of lost track of what you are saying. Are you arguing with yourself, or someone else. Who is someone else BTW? Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2006,03:09) Quote Sorry david, I have kind of lost track of what you are saying. Are you arguing with yourself, or someone else. Who is someone else BTW? Hey T8. Since there is no hope of unoquivically proving John 1:1 either way in peoples minds right now, I was having a conversation with myself (someone else), but based on a much clearer scripture.
david
Oh Ok.Yes I agree with you that we could be talking about the clear and obvious stuff. But in my experience Is 1:18 prefers not to. He likes to get into big words and ontology etc.
I would much prefer to talk about scriptures and let it teach us, rather than creeds and philosophy. Maybe we can ignore Is 1:18 for a while and get going with the scriptures?
John 1:1 is speaking about who and what the Son was and is,BEFORE He became flesh( John 1:14), however, ( John 1:1) does not use the word SON in the( John 1:1) verse, as IS 1:18 is meaning.
John 1:1 does not use the word “” SON “” in the verse.
Show me where it does use the word “” SON “” in the verse? This is what IS 1:18 is saying.
IS 1:18 is not meaning that Yahushua Messiah is not the SON of YHWH the Father as you are assumimg.
Quote (Eliyah @ Feb. 05 2006,08:31) Or, will T8 be banned from the forum too? Quote Sorry david, I have kind of lost track of what you are saying. Are you arguing with yourself, or someone else. Who is someone else BTW?
Eliyah,We can talk about other stuff and even joke about things. But I ask that you not change the direction of the subject at hand. You are free to start up other discussions if you are going to diverge or you can even diverge if to prove a point related to the discussion. You do have a number of discussions that cover what you are saying anyway, so let's not get greedy aye!.
Let me make this clear. This Forum is not here for spam, denominational promotion, or pushing a doctrine in every discussion and at every chance. Google for example penalises websites from their search results for this kind of activity in order to keep their search results clean. This site may not be Google, but it is about searching the truth and quality discussion. It is not a platform for pushing pills, denominations, penis enhancers, cheap software, or the same doctrine in every discussion.
My job is to keep things balanced and clean so that we can all have a fair go. I have only banned 2 or 3 people who posted in the Forum in the last 5 years. I am not a Nazi. I do regularly ban spammers however. But they never make posts, they are only interested in a link to their website in the Personal Info part.
But these are written that you may believe that Yahushua is the Messiah, the Son of YHWH the Father.
I think IS 1:18 is well aware of that verse and many others like it, in Matt., Mark, Luke, and John.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2006,08:39) Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2006,03:09) Quote Sorry david, I have kind of lost track of what you are saying. Are you arguing with yourself, or someone else. Who is someone else BTW? Hey T8. Since there is no hope of unoquivically proving John 1:1 either way in peoples minds right now, I was having a conversation with myself (someone else), but based on a much clearer scripture.
david
Oh Ok.Yes I agree with you that we could be talking about the clear and obvious stuff. But in my experience Is 1:18 prefers not to. He likes to get into big words and ontology etc.
I would much prefer to talk about scriptures and let it teach us, rather than creeds and philosophy. Maybe we can ignore Is 1:18 for a while and get going with the scriptures?
Now now t8, no need to be like that….if you feel persecuted by me because I actually challenge some of your unscriptural teachings then I think you just need to harden up a bit. It's not persecution, its called debating. Anyhow, I'm trying to be nicer to you this time around.Also, for what seems like the 50th time I refer to creeds almost never, and when I do its to point out that I put no stock in them, never have. As for Greek philosophy I have never studied it, nor do I incorporate it into anything I write. I would appreciate it if you would conduct yourself with some honesty and stop misrepresenting me this way.
Quote (Eliyah @ Feb. 05 2006,08:56) But these are written that you may believe that Yahushua is the Messiah, the Son of YHWH the Father. I think IS 1:18 is well aware of that verse and many others like it, in Matt., Mark, Luke, and John.
True enough Eliyah. Thanks buddy.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2006,03:27) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 05 2006,15:34) I'll look at the other posts later on – i'm off to my church soon. To Is 1:18,
You said 'my' church. But the real Church is the body and that is Christ's Church, not yours or my church. This is the whole point Is 1:18, you are more interested in your interpretation, your church and your version of God who is made up of 3 persons.
How many people really say Jesus Church or his body, and let scripture speak for itself. Are we greater than Christ? Are we greater than God? So many seem to think so
I suppose I could have said ” Im off to a building where I will be worshipping Almightly God in fellowship with other Judeo-Christian believers” but since thats a real mouthful and the term “church” neatly encapsulates this concept, and in general people know what I mean when I use it, I choose to use it. Of course I know that the real “church” is the body/bride of Christ.Quote I wonder while you were at YOUR church this morning, if you apologised for yesterdays comments, when you called Christ (and Paul) a polytheist and your statement about them joining the Mormons?
Please re-read what I actually wrote. I do however stand by both comments for reasons i'll explain tomorrow (if I have time).Heaven T8,
You said
Quote Eliyah, We can talk about other stuff and even joke about things. But I ask that you not change the direction of the subject at hand. You are free to start up other discussions if you are going to diverge or you can even diverge if to prove a point related to the discussion. You do have a number of discussions that cover what you are saying anyway, so let's not get greedy aye!.
Let me make this clear. This Forum is not here for spam, denominational promotion, or pushing a doctrine in every discussion and at every chance. Google for example penalises websites from their search results for this kind of activity in order to keep their search results clean. This site may not be Google, but it is about searching the truth and quality discussion. It is not a platform for pushing pills, denominations, penis enhancers, cheap software, or the same doctrine in every discussion.
My job is to keep things balanced and clean so that we can all have a fair go. I have only banned 2 or 3 people who posted in the Forum in the last 5 years. I am not a Nazi. I do regularly ban spammers however. But they never make posts, they are only interested in a link to their website in the Personal Info part.
Where have i done these things that you accuse me of, or are you even accusing me of doing these things?
I only post a url for people to click on and read an article related to the subject topic as to not completely clutter up this forum's space as you asked me to do, and the urls in the last posts in the baal topic is NOT my websites or spam either.
Quote You are free to start up other discussions if you are going to diverge or you can even diverge if to prove a point related to the discussion. You do have a number of discussions that cover what you are saying anyway, so let's not get greedy aye!. I've only posted this one subject topic below for months now on this forum.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….1;t=465
Is that being greedy-A ? Or is it, you really don't want me to post at all in any of these subject topics?
As I already told you, if you or anyone else important don't want me here, then they can ask me to leave, and i will leave, or is this forum going to be like the rest of the modern christian traditional claiming forums that have banned me merely because they cannot or will disprove the scriptural posts of discussion?
I do not belong to any religious orginazation on the face of this earth, and i certainly do not belong to google or hoogle or doodle either to promote.
All i have posted are the scriptures on here and sometimes as it relates to history also, and i ask anyone on here to either prove or dis-prove them with scriptures also.
So why don't people discuss them or disprove them instead of complaining? Or, have i mis-understood in some way? If so, then i'm sorry.
Eliyah C.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 06 2006,04:15) Now now t8, no need to be like that….if you feel persecuted by me because I actually challenge some of your unscriptural teachings then I think you just need to harden up a bit. It's not persecution, its called debating. Anyhow, I'm trying to be nicer to you this time around. Also, for what seems like the 50th time I refer to creeds almost never, and when I do its to point out that I put no stock in them, never have. As for Greek philosophy I have never studied it, nor do I incorporate it into anything I write. I would appreciate it if you would conduct yourself with some honesty and stop misrepresenting me this way.
Yeah right
You never refer to Creeds maybe, but you just teach them. You haven't studied Greek philosophy, but yet you teach it. The Trinity doctrine's foundation is creedal, not scriptural. That is the honest truth. But the honest truth cannot be seen by dishonest men. The Trinity is not the foundation of Christianity, nor is the Trinity God (YHWH). YHWH is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your teachings are mere speculations of men that has been collated in the creeds. Probably the church that you say you go to, has a creed as it's foundation. You may have even signed up for membership and agreed to the creed/statement of faith.
Is 1:18, everytime you promote the Trinity you are teaching creeds. Then you tell me to be honest, yet that is what I am doing. I am speking the truth of the matter. The Trinity is a based on creeds. Creeds that men have died for because they refused to partake. Creeds that have been written in mens blood.
You should be a fisher of men, not a follower of men. For if you follow man you will fall into a ditch. Perhaps even worse, you will counted among the judgement of false religion when God judges her.
I am sure that God has given you something that you can give. But you choose to follow the doctrines of men. You are ripping yourself off. Why bury your coin in the ground. Invest it somewhere. Love the truth. Challenge the world. Don't go with the flow of the world.
BTW, persecution is what you are doing. I quote scriptures and you tell me I am a polytheist or should join the mormons. You say all manner of things against the truth. But here's the thing, you are really saying them to Christ himself. Christ said we are gods. You say that is polytheism. This is but 1 example of your conduct. I quote it because it was recent, i.e., 1 day ago.
Jesus suffered the same kind of things by the Pharisees, and Jesus knew their hearts. So he was very firm with them and even once called them a bunch of blood suckers. But if you choose to be a pharisee of old, Is 1:18, then Christ is against you.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 06 2006,04:42) I suppose I could have said ” Im off to a building where I will be worshipping Almightly God in fellowship with other Judeo-Christian believers” but since thats a real mouthful and the term “church” neatly encapsulates this concept, and in general people know what I mean when I use it, I choose to use it. Of course I know that the real “church” is the body/bride of Christ.
Christianity today, is full of false teaching and traditions of men. If you know the truth, then you should preserve it instead of perpetuating false meaning. If you know that the body is the Church then speak that way. If the truth is inconvenient, then is convenience greater than truth?Quote (Eliyah @ Feb. 05 2006,09:44) So why don't people discuss them or disprove them instead of complaining? Or, have i mis-understood in some way? If so, then i'm sorry.
To Eliyah,Their silence probably shows that they do not believe you, or that they are busy with other truth searching. If they do not come, then I only ask that you do not hijack another discussion and coax them over to your one. Each discussion has the same method of being accessed. That should be enough.
Please remember that many come here seeking truth. There is a lot to seek and they may not always come to your discussion. You have to respect that. Also people cannot challenge or post in every discussion. They pick a few usually out of the many. It just so happens that the Trinity discussion, the nature of Christ, and others get most of the attention. If that is the case then so be it.
thx.
Quote To Eliyah, Their silence probably shows that they do not believe you, or that they are busy with other truth searching. If they do not come, then I only ask that you do not hijack another discussion and coax them over to your one. Each discussion has the same method of being accessed. That should be enough.
Please remember that many come here seeking truth. There is a lot to seek and they may not always come to your discussion. You have to respect that. Also people cannot challenge or post in every discussion. They pick a few usually out of the many. It just so happens that the Trinity discussion, the nature of Christ, and others get most of the attention. If that is the case then so be it.
thx.
Quote Their silence probably shows that they do not believe you, or that they are busy with other truth searching. If they do not come, then I only ask that you do not hijack another discussion and coax them over to your one. I tend to believe that since when i do make MANY a scriptural responce such as postsPosted: Feb. 04 2006,00:24 and responce post Posted: Feb. 04 2006,04:43, postPosted: Feb. 05 2006,08:05, postPosted: Feb. 05 2006,08:48 in this same thread, then, those who are here discussing it that oppose it, cannot dis-prove them, or else they would refute them with scriptures don't ye think ?
Since when was thee above mentioned posts trying to hijack the discussion ? Those who don't answer to the responce posts can't answer, because they can't refute them.
Oh well, at least i posted them the truth of scriptures on the subject, however, whether they choose to agree or dis-agree is up to them, but i think the dis-agreers are in so much shock or amazement that they cannot answer.
So, then when the topics are finished being discussed , then i will just post only scriptures that prove or dis-prove them then, since no one wants me to respond in their discussions. So be it, since my responces are called hijacking.
thats enough
Quote (Eliyah @ Feb. 06 2006,07:26) Those who don't answer to the responce posts can't answer, because they can't refute them.
Remember I promised you a smiley face if you behaved yourself.Quote You never refer to Creeds maybe, but you just teach them.
Show me where I have taught “a creed”?Quote You haven't studied Greek philosophy, but yet you teach it.
Show me where I have taught “Greek philosophy”, as opposed to something biblical.If you cannot produce the evidence then yes you have been dishonest in misrepresenting me because the intimation of your comments is that i'm constantly doing these things. Anyone reading these comments, who has not read many of my previous posts, will likely draw this erroneous conclusion. That's simple deception on your part.
Quote The Trinity doctrine's foundation is creedal, not scriptural. That is the honest truth. But the honest truth cannot be seen by dishonest men. The Trinity is not the foundation of Christianity, nor is the Trinity God (YHWH). YHWH is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your teachings are mere speculations of men that has been collated in the creeds.
The creeds were not the starting point for my conclusion that YHWH is a triune God. I don't think i'd even read any until you started quoting them. Similarly, I don't think I have derived any of my christology from a church preacher or layman while at a church. I came to my conclusions via my own Bible study and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I believe “plurality within unity” is a logical deduction and tri-unity model (for lack of a better word) best accounts for all the biblical data we have on Jesus, The Father and the Holy Spirit.Quote Probably the church that you say you go to, has a creed as it's foundation.
I thought you disapproved of someone using the term “church” to denote anything other than the body of Christ. You do it yourself.I have no idea if it has a “a creed as it's foundation”, I just started going to it last week. And no we don't stand there are recite them.
Quote You may have even signed up for membership and agreed to the creed/statement of faith.
*smirk*
You really don't know me well at all!
Quote Is 1:18, everytime you promote the Trinity you are teaching creeds. Then you tell me to be honest, yet that is what I am doing. I am speking the truth of the matter. The Trinity is a based on creeds. Creeds that men have died for because they refused to partake. Creeds that have been written in mens blood.
I may have arrived at some of the same conclusions that the creed writers did, but so what?? We both have the same data to work with, and interpreted it similarly. BTW t8, you do not default to a 'more honest' or 'superior' theological plateau because you have arrived at different conclusions and have consequently disassociated yourself from this mainstream doctrine.Quote You should be a fisher of men, not a follower of men.
Are unitarians like yourself the only “fishers of men”?Quote For if you follow man you will fall into a ditch.
I do not blindly follow men. I do my exegetical homework and the conclusions I have forged are my own.Quote Perhaps even worse, you will counted among the judgement of false religion when God judges her.
Since I don't consider myself “religious” (man's attempt to absolve himself before God) at all I think i'm on safe ground. I wonder if you can show me a verse that states that those that don't hold to a belief that God is one person will incur judgement.Quote I am sure that God has given you something that you can give. But you choose to follow the doctrines of men. You are ripping yourself off. Why bury your coin in the ground. Invest it somewhere. Love the truth. Challenge the world. Don't go with the flow of the world.
Every now and again you write me this quasi-paternalistic nonsense, as if you consider yourself some sort of fatherly mentor to me!? If ever i'm in the market for a spiritual 'life coach' i'll be sure to let you know, in the mean time can we just stick to debating theology. Thanks.Quote BTW, persecution is what you are doing. I quote scriptures and you tell me I am a polytheist or should join the mormons. You say all manner of things against the truth. But here's the thing, you are really saying them to Christ himself. Christ said we are gods. You say that is polytheism. This is but 1 example of your conduct. I quote it because it was recent, i.e., 1 day ago.
BTW, if you feel persecuted by me than i'm sorry you feel that way but really all we're doing is having a theological debate (albeit one with colossal eternal repucussions for one of us, unless we change our minds that is).Here are the comments I made in context (please note emphasis):
“God has God’s nature also. You make a big deal of nature and identity as if these are mutually exclusive terms. I think most sound thinking people recognise the fact that only humans have human nature, and only God has divine nature. And while we might one day partake in the divine nature I dont think Peter was alluding to us becoming Gods/gods. If you think this then why not join the Mormons”
If you are proposing that these Lords and gods are also “divine” then (sic) you are truly a polytheist.
BTW, it is polytheism to believe in more than one god.
From Dictionary.com
pol·y·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m)
n.
The worship of or belief in more than one god.I'm going to giv
e you my reasons for writing these comments in my next post.Quote Jesus suffered the same kind of things by the Pharisees, and Jesus knew their hearts. So he was very firm with them and even once called them a bunch of blood suckers. But if you choose to be a pharisee of old, Is 1:18, then Christ is against you.
Funny how people, regardless of theological affiliation, always see the pharisee in their detractors and Jesus in themselves.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 07 2006,01:42) Show me where I have taught “a creed”? Show me where I have taught “Greek philosophy”, as opposed to something biblical.
When you teach the Trinity.You teach the Trinity do you not. Or was that someone else with the same name and avatar?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 07 2006,01:42) BTW, it is polytheism to believe in more than one god. From Dictionary.com
pol·y·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m)
n.
The worship of or belief in more than one god.I'm going to give you my reasons for writing these comments in my next post.
So when Jesus said we are gods, what was he saying?When Paul said we shall partake of the divine nature what was he saying?
When Paul said that we don't know what we will become except to say that we shall be like him, what did he mean?
I teach all 3 of these scriptures yet you brand me with all manner of accusations. Yet I am only repeating scripture. So your problem is not really me, it is scripture.
You remind me of a Trinitarian who use to come here called global. I flatly quoted him scripture once without referencing it as scripture and he pretty much reacted in similar way to yourself and called me a polytheist. When I showed him it was actually scripture that he had a problem with and not me, he still persecuted me because of those scriptures.
Well in the end I had to consider myself blessed. Jesus said blessed are you when they persecute you and say all manner of things against you because of me.
Amen to that.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 06 2006,06:49) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 07 2006,01:42) Show me where I have taught “a creed”? Show me where I have taught “Greek philosophy”, as opposed to something biblical.
When you teach the Trinity.You teach the Trinity do you not. Or was that someone else with the same name and avatar?
I asked you to show me a post I wrote (or a portion thereof) where I have:1. taught “a creed”
2. taught “Greek philosophy”, as opposed to something biblical.
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