Who is this Jesus?

[kenrch]

Quote (soxan @ Jan. 19 2006,03:50)

Hey big mouth you never did answer my question; can u read Hebrew? and to what degree? what kind of magic marker do you use when u read the bible in Hebrew and English? You and your wacked out friends;” no it doesn`t mean that. No, it doesn`t say that. no in Hebrew it means a number “. You guys make me sick. Clouds with no rain.

Can't make you too sick you're still here!

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 19 2006,03:55)

Quote (soxan @ Jan. 19 2006,03:50) Hey big mouth you never did answer my question; can u read Hebrew? and to what degree? what kind of magic marker do you use when u read the bible in Hebrew and English? You and your wacked out friends;” no it doesn`t mean that. No, it doesn`t say that. no in Hebrew it means a number “. You guys make me sick. Clouds with no rain. Can't make you too sick you're still here!

Good night

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 18 2006,09:07)

Yes. But it is ONE Flesh not TWO Fleshes! The two become Numeral One Flesh ECHAD simply means NUMERAL ONE If you see how ECHAD is used throughout the Hebrew Bible, it simply means Numeral One. Yachid means alone, etc … it is not used as a numeral Therefore, there is ONE GOD … ECHAD GOD It is really that simple!!

Yes Adam, that's why I wrote: “two persons – one flesh” (not two fleshes – two persons) and why I also wrote plurality within unity (not plurality within plurality). I'm not trying to make a case for polytheism. I think we both agree that there is ONE true God. But, lexically speaking, the word a “echad” which indeed designates the Hebrew numeral one, can be used to denote compound unity – as is evidenced in Gen 2:24. Do you now understand?

[Adam Pastor]

Do you now understand that ONE flesh means exactly that!
ONE flesh. Do you now understand that ONE means ONE!

This whole thing about ECHAD meaning a compound unity is a myth, a farce.

Echad simply means ONE. GOD is ONE person … ONE Being … ONE personage.
Just browse a concordance/lexicon … and you should see that ECHAD simply means ONE, even in Gen 2.24.
Oh … and before one uses the cluster of grapes example … it is still ONE cluster.

GOD is not two … GOD is not a plurality … GOD is not a cluster … GOD is not a family … GOD is ONE.

(Mark 12:29-32)  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Neither Jesus nor the scribe were trinitarian.
The scribe did not perceive that Jesus was talking about a triune God.

They both understood Deut 6.4 to mean that there is ONE being who is GOD.
Not two or three become ONE. Simply ONE Being. …
for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

[Is 1:18]

Quote

Do you not understand that ONE flesh means exactly that? ONE flesh. Do you not understand that ONE means ONE?

Adam,
I think you need to reread my post, although for clarity I will again reiterate that I am unequivically NOT trying to infer that “echad” means more than one. Yes, it means the numeral one, I agree with you!! How many times do I have to write it? I honestly don't know how much clearer I can be on this point.

Quote

GOD is ONE person … ONE Being … ONE personage.

I wonder if you can produce one verse in the Bible that unambigiously states that God is one person.

Quote

(Mark 12:29-32)  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Who said “there is none other but he”? It was the scribe, Adam. This shouldn't come as a major surprise to you Adam, but Jesus was misunderstood, not just personally but ontologically (“Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?…….”). There were aspects of God that the Jews just didn't get Adam. Look at how much explaining Jesus had to do to the disciples – and they were practically with Jesus 24/7! So a flippant comment by an uninformed scribe is a very weak prooftext for the unitarian position.

[Anonymous]

i thought so big mouth! then shut up and stop decieving people! if you took the time to read in full , echad was clearly explained. u can`t understand Hebrew thats your fault, but u can`t resist, you have to show your ignorance. u ever read the your own bullshit in your own website? clown!

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 19 2006,07:21)

I wonder if you can produce one verse in the Bible that unambigiously states that God is one person.

You kidding right?  

Here is a few because you have got to be kidding me …

(1 Cor 8:4)  … and that there is none other God but one.

(1 Cor 8:6)  But to us there is but one God, the Father …

(Gal 3:20)  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

(1 Tim 2:5)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(Mal 2:10)  Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? …

(John 17:3)  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(2 Ki 19:15)  And Hezekiah prayed before YAHWEH, and said, O YAHWEH God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

If one doesn't know the meaning of the words one, only & alone; in these contexts to mean one person …
Then I don't know what more can be said, except check a dictionary!!

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 19 2006,07:21)

Who said “there is none other but he”? It was the scribe, Adam. This shouldn't come as a major surprise to you Adam, but Jesus was misunderstood, not just personally but ontologically (“Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?…….”). There were aspects of God that the Jews just didn't get Adam.

You believe the scribe misunderstood Jesus in regards to who GOD is!!! in these verses!!!  

Oh dear, you need to read on
You know what … how about I quote the whole thing

Quote

(Mark 12:28-34)  And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Now does this sound like Jesus commending someone who got him wrong, both personally & ontologically to coin your phrase!!
The scribe said Jesus spoke the truth. In this regard, are you saying the scribe was wrong!!!
The scribe understood from the very lips of the Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, the Prophet of Deut 18:15,18; who spoke the very words of GOD;
that GOD is ONE person!
Are you saying that the Messiah's, the SENT of GOD's confession of the Shema was misunderstood!!!

What!! Jesus commended the scribe.
Sure. Scribes get it wrong. Sure. They misunderstood him.

But not in this regard. Not in this episode. Look again! Jesus commended him.
Told him he was NOT far from the Kingdom of GOD; are you saying that Jesus is telling a scribe who got him wrong both personally & ontologically to coin your phrase; that he is NOT far from the Kingdom of GOD!
PLEASSEEEEEE    

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 19 2006,07:21)

So a flippant comment by an uninformed scribe is a very weak prooftext for the unitarian position.

I see. According to you, Jesus commended an uninformed scribe, who made a flippant comment about his GOD; that he was not far from the Kingdom of GOD.

You know what. I'll leave it to others to judge your remarks.

[Is 1:18]

Hi,
I won't be able to post for the next few days as I am shifting house. In the mean time Adam you might want to take a prozac or something to calm yourself down….man!! You're a little up tight!

Be well

[Anonymous]

try zoloft.

[Anonymous]

get well Adam:O http://www.zoloft.com/zoloft….lt_home

[Adam Pastor]

Greetings All …
For more info, on Echad ( & Elohim)
I have added two articles that deal with this issue

See Mathematics Gone Mad: When One is Supposed to Mean Three

and

Elohim and Echad

Enjoy!

[Anonymous]

don`t waste your time! ask someone, anyone with a basic knowledge in Hebrew instead. don`t waste your time zoloft boy.

[Anonymous]

don`t waste your time! ask someone, anyone with a basic knowledge in Hebrew instead. don`t waste your time zoloft boy.:O

[Admin]

Soxan has been banned from the Heaven Net Forum.
He has nothing good to say and only pulls people down.

[berean2005]

Hi Bastian,

I had posted this question to you back on 1/10/06.

I checked but didn't happen to see your reply to the following:

Posted: Jan. 10 2006,22:36
———————————————————–
Bastian,

I'd be interested in hearing what you think Yahweh's titles mean. Yahweh's titles of Aleph and the Tav, First and the Last, Beginning and the End.

Thanks
———————————————————–

I appologize if I have not answered any specific questions you had asked. If you have any specific question for me I would be happy to answer it for you.

Thanks,

Berean

[Woutlaw]

My friends

The scriptures make it clear that there is but One God, The Father, and One Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 8:6. Also look at the first verses of every epistle written by Paul. Was he lying? He makes it crystal clear. I respect the views of you all who disagree.I think we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Blessing from The God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ

[Sultan]

Quote (Woutlaw @ Jan. 21 2006,11:11)

My friends The scriptures make it clear that there is but One God, The Father, and One Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 8:6. Also look at the first verses of every epistle written by Paul. Was he lying? He makes it crystal clear. I respect the views of you all who disagree.I think we can disagree without being disagreeable. Blessing from The God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Hey bro,
I'm in total agreement, but I think the issue is one of classification. The Bible says, “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself…” (2Cor.5:19). Also the Word was God (John 1:1). Well we know that Jesus was not Almighty God, but the scriptures say that Almighty God was in Christ. So when presented with these facts. Am I wrong to say that Christ was God in the flesh or better stated that Christ was divine in nature? The Virgin birth makes CHrist more than just a man because God Almighty was literally His Father.
My understanding from scripture is yes Jesus was divine, and yes God Almighty was in Christ, but Jesus was not God Almighty He is the Son of God, and His purpose was to reconcile us back to the Father through His death, burial, and ressurection.
The Trinity doctrine comes into error here because it makes Jesus God Almighty which no matter how you try to explain it equals Two Gods, One on the throne and one on the right hand of the throne. Also the scriptures do not support the Co-equality of Christ. He is equal now because He has been highly exalted by the Father, but in the beginning as the Word he was subject to the Father, and at the end after all is accomplished Jesus will be subject to the Father again.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[david]

Jesus’ Prehuman Existence

Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13)
Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51.

That Jesus was alive before coming to the earth is clear from his words: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (John 8:58)
Abraham lived from 2018 to 1843 B.C.E., whereas Jesus’ human life ran from 2 B.C.E. to 33 C.E.
Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5.

Jesus’ followers gave similar testimony. The apostle John wrote: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. . . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.” (John 1:1, 3, 14) Yes, “the Word became flesh” as the man Jesus Christ.

Alluding to Jesus’ prehuman existence, the apostle Paul wrote: “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:5-7) Paul called Jesus “the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created.”—Colossians 1:13-16.

Here is where I think there is some confusing and differing ideas about Jesus:
Was Jesus Divine on Earth?

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15.

As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

But do not Jesus’ miracles prove that he was a God-man? No, for Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the apostles Peter and Paul, and others performed miracles without being God-men. (Exodus 14:15-31; 1 Kings 18:18-40; 2 Kings 4:17-37; Acts 9:36-42; 19:11, 12) Like them, Jesus was a human who performed miracles with God-given power.—Luke 11:14-19.

Jesus’ True Position

Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than the Son of God. Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

For those who say “You aren't a Christian if you don't believe in the trinity,” I say to them what Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23) Indeed, even as Christians belong to their Master, Jesus Christ, so he belongs to his Head, Jehovah God.

These were just some interesting thoughts that for the most part I haven't really seen on here.

dave

[Woutlaw]

Brother Sultan,

All I can say is amen, I couldn't have stated it better. You took it to a whole new level. That's one reason why I love this forum. You can come here and teach and be taugh, Proverbs 27:17 says, “As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens one another”. May we continue to sharpen one another, and continue to encourage one another daily Hebrews 3:13.

May The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ bless you

[Woutlaw]

David,

You brought up many good points as well

[Author]

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