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Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2013,19:57) Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,03:55) kerwin,
Is Jehovah a spirit?
Is the Spirit of Jehovah a spirit?
Is the Spirit of Christ a spirit?
kathyyou asking is men a human
then you ask his the will of men a human being
then you ask is the spirit of Christ a spirit ;;;;how could he be his own spirit and be his own will (because the spirit of Christ refers to the actions Jesus took and applied )one can only belong to the other ,NO
Pierre,
You lost me. I do not know what you are saying. Can you clarify?Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2013,18:13) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,23:37) …….why couldn't the Son be named before He was given His name after He was begotten?
My point is that at some point, Jesus DIDN'T have that name, since it was at some point GIVEN to him.You cannot GIVE the name “Jim” to someone who has already eternally BEEN “Jim”.
Are you seeing my point?
Mike,
The best comparison that I can give is John the Baptist.He was given the name by the angel before he was conceived and then given to him in another sense after he was begotten/born. So, what you say about a name cannot be given to someone who already existed as that person, is not true.
John the Baptist always had ready for him, his name 'John,' and was given the name 'John' after he was begotten/born.
This is not hard.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:43) Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2013,19:57) Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,03:55) kerwin,
Is Jehovah a spirit?
Is the Spirit of Jehovah a spirit?
Is the Spirit of Christ a spirit?
kathyyou asking is men a human
then you ask his the will of men a human being
then you ask is the spirit of Christ a spirit ;;;;how could he be his own spirit and be his own will (because the spirit of Christ refers to the actions Jesus took and applied )one can only belong to the other ,NO
Pierre,
You lost me. I do not know what you are saying. Can you clarify?
KathyIs Jehovah a spirit?THIS IS GOD'S BEING AS HIS OWN NATURE
Is the Spirit of Jehovah a spirit? THIS IS, HIS SOUL ,MIND AND HEART
Is the Spirit of Christ a spirit?THIS IS, HIS SOUL ,MIND AND HEART ,HE ALSO IS BY NATURE A SPIRIT BEING,IT SEEMS YOU ARE MIXING TWO BEINGS WITH THE SAME NATURE BUT WHO ARE VERY TWO DIFFERENT BEINGS.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition.
I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.
LU,Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be. There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,13:57) John the Baptist always had ready for him, his name 'John,'………. This is not hard.
If there is a point in time when John DID NOT have that name, then there is a point in time where “John” was NOT YET “John”.Having a name “ready for” someone, and then at some point GIVING that name to them, is not the same as that person HAVING that name from eternity, is it?
That is why Luke 1:13 says, “you WILL call him John” – FUTURE tense.
And why Luke 1:60 says, “he WILL BE called John” – again, FUTURE tense.
See? He wasn't ALREADY John at that time – which is why it didn't say, “call him John right now – before he even exists as a sentient being”.
This is not hard, Kathi.
Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2013,14:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.
LU,Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be. There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes.
Nor is the Son “self-existent”, as is evident from John 6:57…….. “I live BECAUSE OF the Father”.Nor does the Son have a “FROM eternity” nature, as is evident from words like “son”, “born”, “begotten”, “origins”, “beginning of God's creation”, etc.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 26 2013,19:47) Now as far as satan being a true god or The god as scripture teaches identifies him as The false god.
Which scripture identifies Satan as a “false god”, Daniel? Surely none of those you listed do such a thing.Quote (4Thomas @ June 26 2013,19:47) And every other translation I could find identifies these heavenly beings as angels.
Absolutely – which is exactly my point. King David, speaking by Holy Spirit, said Jehovah made mankind a little lower than the elohim, Daniel. And who exactly were these ones that David himself called gods? They were angels – like Michael and Gabriel. They were Jehovah's own much beloved spirit sons that He made BEFORE us and HIGHER THAN us.Do you get it? David identified these spirit sons of Jehovah as gods in Psalm 8:5. Will you call Michael, Gabriel, and all the other RIGHTEOUS and FAITHFUL spirit sons of Jehovah “false gods” – just to suit your doctrine?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 26 2013,19:47) Paul explains Explicitly There is NO God but ONE and all the others are SO-CALLED Gods.
FALSE Gods are so-called gods here is the proof!
1 Corinthians 8
4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1. The words “so-called” are added by men who try to teach the lie that there LITERALLY exists only ONE elohim – when in fact there exist many.2. The ADDED quotation marks are also not present in Paul's original Greek words, meaning that Paul really said, “as indeed there ARE many gods and many lords – both IN HEAVEN, and ON EARTH”.
3. If you take, “for us there is but one God” in a LITERAL sense, then you must also take “and there is but ONE lord” in an EQUALLY literal sense.
So………. is Jesus Christ LITERALLY the ONLY lord the Christians of Paul's day had? Was the Father not ALSO their lord? How about the Holy Spirit? Your early Trinitarian church fathers say that the Holy Spirit is also our lord. And how about these other teachings from Paul:
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly lords with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly lords in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.But wait…….. how can Paul tell us to obey our “earthly lords” if he already told us that Jesus was LITERALLY our ONLY lord? I'll tell you how: Paul was speaking EMPHATICALLY in 1 Cor 8:6. He clearly, and without mincing words told us that indeed there ARE many gods, both IN HEAVEN as well as on earth, and then EMPHATICALLY placed the Father ABOVE them with his statement.
He clearly, and without mincing words, told us that there are MANY lords, both IN HEAVEN as well as on earth, and then EMPATICALLY placed Jesus ABOVE them with his statement.
See, Paul clearly knew that God's spirit sons are also gods – since the word “elohim” simply means “mighty one”. We know that he knew this because he translated King David's word “elohim” as “angels” when he quoted Psalm 8:5. He KNEW that by “gods”, David was speaking of the heavenly beings that we often call “angels”.
Now, before you post ANOTHER million scriptures that are mostly emphatic as well, please DIRECTLY address the fact that Paul CLEARLY spoke of the MANY gods who INDEED exist IN HEAVEN and on earth.
And then tell me who exactly ARE these gods that live IN HEAVEN.
(In other words, I will address EVERY scripture that you EVER bring up in this thread – but right now we need closure on 1 Cor 8:6 – the scripture YOU brought up. And we need closure on the FACT that David referred to the angels in heaven as gods in Psalm 8:5. THEN we can discuss any scripture you like – ONE AT A TIME.)
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2013,20:24) Quote (4Thomas @ June 20 2013,01:35) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
Is it your intention to say that Jesus is a “YHWH” that CAN BE seen by human eyes, while the Father is a “YHWH” that CANNOT be seen by human eyes? YES or NO?
Yes, I believe we can't access the Father directly.
Okay. So now we both agree that Jesus, the servant OF the Father, is a lesser god than the Father is, right? Because no man can see the MOST HIGH God, the Father……. but men CAN see the less high god, Jesus, right?Are we in agreement?
Also, at some point I'd like you to address the point in the quote box above.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2013,12:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2013,20:24) Quote (4Thomas @ June 20 2013,01:35) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
Is it your intention to say that Jesus is a “YHWH” that CAN BE seen by human eyes, while the Father is a “YHWH” that CANNOT be seen by human eyes? YES or NO?
Yes, I believe we can't access the Father directly.
Okay. So now we both agree that Jesus, the servant OF the Father, is a lesser god than the Father is, right? Because no man can see the MOST HIGH God, the Father……. but men CAN see the less high god, Jesus, right?Are we in agreement?
Also, at some point I'd like you to address the point in the quote box above.
Hi Mike,
I already answered this in my post [June 25 2013,12:21] where I talk about Adam and Eve.
Mike all Fathers have greater authority than their Sons.
Jesus derives his true nature from his Father so he is no different. The president or even a boss of a employee at a local supermarket has higher authority than the employee.
It doesn't change the nature of the employee though does it. Adam is like the Father and Eve is like the Son, both are truly different but still human, eve take her human nature from Adam alone… I believe Adam would have been very happy with what he seen too
Thank the Lord it wasn't another Adam:) Jesus is not another Father, he is true God by nature but like Eve is different. We don't need scripture to look at this as God clearly made this so we could see this doctrine of the image of God for all without referring to what scriptures are correct or not.
If you do not believe that Women are in the image of God also please let me know.Lets stick to the subject of how many true Gods there are for now, Mike I also have some questions you haven't answered me yet but I don't want to get side tracked and want to look at one single aspect at a time.
Hope you have a good weekend.
Life in the Son and in his name.
DanielMike
it is amazing what we can learn in scriptures if we only are truthful to what is written ,and believe it ,but many do not really believe God's word only in principal as a title not by content ,
and yes good comment
Mike,
If a father is self-existing, there needs to be a self-existing offspring as well whether begotten or yet to be begotten.Also, the 'origin' was referring to the Son of man. The plan that there would be an incarnation had its origin in ancient times, before creation. The beginning of that plan was the begettal of the self-existent offspring within which already existed. The begettal of the Son of God was necessary before creation in order for Him to be the agent of creation, and much later in order for Him to become flesh at the incarnation.
Also, John 6:57 refers to the life of the flesh. The context is about the Son of Man.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,19:52) Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,13:57) John the Baptist always had ready for him, his name 'John,'………. This is not hard.
If there is a point in time when John DID NOT have that name, then there is a point in time where “John” was NOT YET “John”.Having a name “ready for” someone, and then at some point GIVING that name to them, is not the same as that person HAVING that name from eternity, is it?
That is why Luke 1:13 says, “you WILL call him John” – FUTURE tense.
And why Luke 1:60 says, “he WILL BE called John” – again, FUTURE tense.
See? He wasn't ALREADY John at that time – which is why it didn't say, “call him John right now – before he even exists as a sentient being”.
This is not hard, Kathi.
The future tense is because there is no need to call him a name until he is born because a name does not serve him any purpose until then.Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2013,12:33) Mike,
If a father is self-existing, there needs to be a self-existing offspring as well whether begotten or yet to be begotten.Also, the 'origin' was referring to the Son of man. The plan that there would be an incarnation had its origin in ancient times, before creation. The beginning of that plan was the begettal of the self-existent offspring within which already existed. The begettal of the Son of God was necessary before creation in order for Him to be the agent of creation, and much later in order for Him to become flesh at the incarnation.
Also, John 6:57 refers to the life of the flesh. The context is about the Son of Man.
Kathi,You can “explain away” these clear scriptural teachings that totally contradict your doctrine – if you wish to do so.
There is no indication in any scripture that Jesus was ever anything but a servant of his and our God – before he came to earth, while he was on earth, or after his God exalted him to an even higher position in heaven.
There is no “less than God nature of Jesus” that we must reconcile against the “exactly equal with God nature of Jesus”. This kind of thing is all in your mind.
So when Jesus himself says, “I live BECAUSE OF the Father”, you can take it upon yourself to “explain away” his words and claim that this refers only to his “Son of Man nature”, and not to his “Jehovah the Son” nature………. but you have no scriptural reason to do so, nor any scriptural support to prove such a thing.
I believe in ONE Jesus, who is both the Son of God AND the Son of Man. And it is that ONE Jesus who has always lived “BECAUSE OF his Father”. In fact, he now has eternal life BECAUSE OF his Father and God.
BTW, Jehovah BECAME a Father the day He begot His firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2013,12:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,19:52) Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,13:57) John the Baptist always had ready for him, his name 'John,'………. This is not hard.
If there is a point in time when John DID NOT have that name, then there is a point in time where “John” was NOT YET “John”.Having a name “ready for” someone, and then at some point GIVING that name to them, is not the same as that person HAVING that name from eternity, is it?
That is why Luke 1:13 says, “you WILL call him John” – FUTURE tense.
And why Luke 1:60 says, “he WILL BE called John” – again, FUTURE tense.
See? He wasn't ALREADY John at that time – which is why it didn't say, “call him John right now – before he even exists as a sentient being”.
This is not hard, Kathi.
The future tense is because there is no need to call him a name until he is born because a name does not serve him any purpose until then.
And what purpose was there to give Jesus the name Jehovah before God “brought him out from His insides”?Never mind, because the point will always remain that if anyone is ever GIVEN a name, it means there was a time when that person did NOT have that name. Therefore, Jesus could NOT have been “Jehovah the Son” from eternity, like you claim. End of story.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 28 2013,13:01) It doesn't change the nature of the employee though does it. Adam is like the Father and Eve is like the Son, both are truly different but still human………….
Hmmm………….But are we able to see Eve's face without dying, but cannot see Adam's or else we will die?
Is it said that, “no one has seen Adam at any time, but Eve has explained him to us”?
Of course not. So there is definitely a difference between God and His many spirit sons (Jesus included) if we CAN see the face of His spirit sons without dying, but CANNOT see the face of God without dying.
Agreed?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 28 2013,13:01) Lets stick to the subject of how many true Gods there are for now………
Fair enough. Please explain 1 Cor 8:6 to me WITHOUT using the added quotation marks and the added “so-called”.And then explain who the gods are in Psalm 8:5………… the ones mankind was created a little lower than.
I think we will be caught up then.
Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,02:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition.
I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.
LU,Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be. There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes.
LU,Respond please. Thank you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2013,14:42) Quote (4Thomas @ June 28 2013,13:01) It doesn't change the nature of the employee though does it. Adam is like the Father and Eve is like the Son, both are truly different but still human………….
Hmmm………….But are we able to see Eve's face without dying, but cannot see Adam's or else we will die?
Is it said that, “no one has seen Adam at any time, but Eve has explained him to us”?
Of course not. So there is definitely a difference between God and His many spirit sons (Jesus included) if we CAN see the face of His spirit sons without dying, but CANNOT see the face of God without dying.
Agreed?
Hi Mike,
Just deleted my post by mistake so will have to reply tomorrow.. will have to use word first next time.Please explain this.
Jeremiah 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.Psalm 8:5
English Revised Version
For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.the
greekHebrew doesn't mention angels so the translation that say angels are incorrect.there isn't a single bible revision that says gods, what revision are you using?
Take care,
DanielQuote (4Thomas @ June 30 2013,19:18) Please explain this. Jeremiah 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jeremiah 10:11 NET ©
You people of Israel should tell those nations this: ‘These gods did not make heaven and earth. They will disappear from the earth and from under the heavens.’NIV ©
“Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”First of all, read the entire chapter, Daniel. It is clearly referring to man-made idols, and not to any living being at all. He is saying that THESE man-made idols, who can't even move or talk, let alone create anything, will perish from the earth.
Jehovah is not talking about gods in general, but ONLY about these specific man-made idols that people worship as gods.
Also, just so you know – from NETNotes:
This verse is in Aramaic. It is the only Aramaic sentence in Jeremiah. Scholars debate the appropriateness of this verse to this context. Many see it as a gloss added by a postexilic scribe which was later incorporated into the text.But whether it is legit or not, it is still not referring to any living being…… only to inanimate objects.
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