Who is this Jesus?

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,19:01)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,05:52) Pierre, 1 John 1 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. yes but you forgot to incorporate Colossian1;16,17 and eternel does not mean that he ad no beginning ,only God almighty ad NO beginning

Pierre,
How does Colossians 1 change anything. Colossians 1 doesn't call Jesus the first created.

Also, the context of 1 John 1 is referring to the beginning and that WHICH WAS with the Father. The Eternal Life was with the Father from the beginning.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,18:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,18:25) Also, what is Jesus' NEW name? Mike, …….he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

So if that is his NEW name, then he HASN'T been “Jehovah our Righteousness” from eternity, has he?

Of course, we already knew from John 17:11-12 that IF your claim that Jesus is also named Jehovah was true, then Jesus didn't already HAVE that name from eternity, since your interpretation of the aforementioned passage says this name was GIVEN to him.

In order to GIVE someone a name, there must be a time when they didn't have that name. This is just common sense.

So which is it, Kathi? Has Jesus ALWAYS been “YHWH the Son” – from eternity? Or was the name “YHWH/YHWH our Righteousness” GIVEN to him at some point during his existence?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,18:05)

Pierre, How does Colossians 1 change anything. Colossians 1 doesn't call Jesus the first created.

Then what DOES “firstborn of every creature” mean, Kathi?

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,05:12)

Kerwin, Quote It appears you are applying different meanings to words associated with Jesus than those same words associated with believers.   How so? Quote So according to this the whole family is named of the Father.  Why doesn't that mean each member is named Jehovah That would be pretty confusing don't you think? We will have His name on our foreheads. I understand this to mean that we will be identified as belonging to Him. For some reason a herd of cattle comes to mind that have all been branded by the ranch symbol to indicate that they belong to the specific ranch. I don't know if that relates to the same idea of having His name on our forehead or not.

LU,

If Jesus siting on Jehovah's throne makes him Jehovah then Believers sitting on Jesus' throne make them Jesus.

I am just applying the same reasoning to believers that you apply to Jesus. But if you want to then instead of claiming Jesus is Jehovah claim he became Jehovah's when Jehovah placed his name in him then it sounds reasonable. He is after all called the Son of God.

[Lightenup]

But Kerwin, I never said that Jesus sitting on YHVH's throne makes Him YHVH. I said it was His eternal self-existent nature that He shares with His Father that makes them both YHVH.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,20:22)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,18:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,18:25) Also, what is Jesus' NEW name? Mike, …….he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. So if that is his NEW name, then he HASN'T been “Jehovah our Righteousness” from eternity, has he? Of course, we already knew from John 17:11-12 that IF your claim that Jesus is also named Jehovah was true, then Jesus didn't already HAVE that name from eternity, since your interpretation of the aforementioned passage says this name was GIVEN to him. In order to GIVE someone a name, there must be a time when they didn't have that name.  This is just common sense. So which is it, Kathi?  Has Jesus ALWAYS been “YHWH the Son” – from eternity?  Or was the name “YHWH/YHWH our Righteousness” GIVEN to him at some point during his existence?

Mike,
Remember that John the Baptist was given his name by the angel to his father before he was even conceived. Yet, he wasn't actually given his name till he was born. So therefore, if John can be named before he was conceived but not yet receive his name till after he was born, then why couldn't the Son be named before He was given His name after He was begotten?

The verse tells us that He WILL BE called YHVH our Righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name by which he shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.

Before Judah being saved and Israel dwelling safely, He is YHVH but not yet YHVH our Righteousness.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,06:05)

Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2013,19:01) Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,05:52) Pierre, 1 John 1 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. yes but you forgot to incorporate Colossian1;16,17 and eternel does not mean that he ad no beginning ,only God almighty ad NO beginning Pierre, How does Colossians 1 change anything. Colossians 1 doesn't call Jesus the first created. Also, the context of 1 John 1 is referring to the beginning and that WHICH WAS with the Father. The Eternal Life was with the Father from the beginning.

kathy

Mike is taken the words out of my mouth , first = beginning

it seems that you like your version more than the scriptures

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,11:28)

But Kerwin, I never said that Jesus sitting on YHVH's throne makes Him YHVH. I said it was His eternal self-existent nature that He shares with His Father that makes them both YHVH.

LU,

I am confused. How does Jesus' eternal self-existent nature differ from Jesus? What is a “eternal self-existent nature”?

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Col 1 calls Jesus the Firstborn, not the first conceived or the first created. A birth simply brings out someone who has already existed.

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2013,11:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,11:28) But Kerwin, I never said that Jesus sitting on YHVH's throne makes Him YHVH. I said it was His eternal self-existent nature that He shares with His Father that makes them both YHVH. LU, I am confused.  How does Jesus' eternal self-existent nature differ from Jesus? What is a “eternal self-existent nature”?

Kerwin,
If I said that the Father was eternal and self-existent would you understand what that meant? Would you agree with that statement?

If so, then apply the same to the Son who I believe was within the Father before begotten from Him before creation.

You ask how does the self-existent eternal nature differ from Jesus, I assume that you mean how does it differ from Jesus according to His flesh. Jesus' flesh nature had a beginning and a creator and His pre-existent nature did not have a beginning or a creator. His pre-existent nature had a begetter but not a creator. I believe that He was always existent and was brought forth from within the Father. I do not believe that at one point He did not exist and had to be created.

Created things did not exist before they were created.
Eternal things always existed.

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,00:25)

Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2013,11:13) Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,11:28) But Kerwin, I never said that Jesus sitting on YHVH's throne makes Him YHVH. I said it was His eternal self-existent nature that He shares with His Father that makes them both YHVH. LU, I am confused.  How does Jesus' eternal self-existent nature differ from Jesus? What is a “eternal self-existent nature”? Kerwin, If I said that the Father was eternal and self-existent would you understand what that meant? Would you agree with that statement? If so, then apply the same to the Son who I believe was within the Father before begotten from Him before creation. You ask how does the self-existent eternal nature differ from Jesus, I assume that you mean how does it differ from Jesus according to His flesh. Jesus' flesh nature had a beginning and a creator and His pre-existent nature did not have a beginning or a creator. His pre-existent nature had a begetter but not a creator. I believe that He was always existent and was brought forth from within the Father. I do not believe that at one point He did not exist and had to be created. Created things did not exist before they were created. Eternal things always existed.

LU,

self-existent means existing without being created.
eternal means without beginning or end.

Both are true of the Spirit and of God.

I am trying to discover if you are speaking of the Spirit or of something else.

[Lightenup]

Kerwin,
I'm speaking of the eternal offspring of God.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,00:17)

Pierre, Col 1 calls Jesus the Firstborn, not the first conceived or the first created. A birth simply brings out someone who has already existed.

Kathy

that is your interpretation,not the truth in scriptures,

my first born his a boy ,but he cannot be replaced by any of his sisters ,who are second born and third born ,

first or beginning have the same meaning just like last and the end

alpha and omega = means beginning and end but in reality they are the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet is it not

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,01:41)

Kerwin, I'm speaking of the eternal offspring of God.

LU,

That is the Spirit and Jehovah has only children as of the spirit.

[Lightenup]

kerwin,
Is Jehovah a spirit?
Is the Spirit of Jehovah a spirit?
Is the Spirit of Christ a spirit?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,23:37)

…….why couldn't the Son be named before He was given His name after He was begotten?

My point is that at some point, Jesus DIDN'T have that name, since it was at some point GIVEN to him.

You cannot GIVE the name “Jim” to someone who has already eternally BEEN “Jim”.

Are you seeing my point?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,03:55)

kerwin, Is Jehovah a spirit? Is the Spirit of Jehovah a spirit? Is the Spirit of Christ a spirit?

kathy

you asking is men a human

then you ask his the will of men a human being

then you ask is the spirit of Christ a spirit ;;;;how could he be his own spirit and be his own will (because the spirit of Christ refers to the actions Jesus took and applied )one can only belong to the other ,NO

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
Hope all is well.
I looked at this and asked the Lord to reveal what he wants you to know. I know it’s of the Lord because the scriptures became more and more compounding aligning together perfectly.

Quote

First of all, Satan is NEVER in ANY scripture EVER called a “false god”.  He IS called a god, both by Paul in 2 Cor 4:4, and by Jehovah Himself in the following:

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The light of the gospel displays the Glory of Christ, who when we see the Son we see the Father and true knowledge of God in the face of Jesus, the Word.
Now as far as satan being a true god or The god as scripture teaches identifies him as The false god. Satan the Father of all False Gods has always been the god of this fallen age and have the nations [or a nation] ever changed?

Jeremiah 2:11
Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at all.) But my people have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols.

Psalm 8
4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honour.

So Paul translates Psalm 8:5 “heavenly beings” into the word angels, not Gods.
New International Version (©2011)
You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

And every other translation I could find identifies these heavenly beings as angels.
Paul explains Explicitly There is NO God but ONE and all the others are SO-CALLED Gods.
FALSE Gods are so-called gods here is the proof!
1 Corinthians 8
4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8

Since they have weak faith and conscience they make the food defiled because it would be a sin to eat it – even though it’s not really a sin. Also we don’t exclude the Father from being Lord just as we don’t exclude the Son from being God. Same applies with the ONE Spirit scripture.  

Quote

You have to ask yourself what IS a god?  The Hebrew word “el” simply means “mighty one”.  Is Satan a REAL mighty one who has REAL power?  Or is he a FALSE mighty one whose powers are non-existent because they are FALSE?

Paul was concerned for the Galatians so taught about their false gods
Galatians 4:8
New International Version (©2011)
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.

THOSE WHO BY NATURE ARE NOT GODS.
Who by NATURE/ESSENCE are NOT Gods, this is REAL interesting because Paul makes it clear that God is God by nature/essence. Note this is right before the only real scripture you quote from trying to prove that Jesus is an angel, this single scripture was also refuted in the opening post in this forum/thread. It is by our nature we are human and by the Father and Word/breath [Son/Spirit] they are one God.  
Isaiah 37:19
They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands.

We all know that Jeremiah taught all other Gods will perish
Jeremiah 2:11
Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at all.) But my people have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols.

Jeremiah 5:7
“Why should I forgive you? Your children have forsaken me and sworn by gods that are not gods. I supplied all their needs, yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of prostitutes.

Jeremiah 16:20
Do people make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!”

Act 19
26And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. 27And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship.”

One of the best descriptions of the false gods coupled with Yahweh teaching that he is ALONE is found in Isaiah 44:6-25 PLEASE Note this description of the false gods is after Yahweh say he is the first and the last and apart from him there is NO God and there is none like him.

Isaiah 44:6 onwards
This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me?
AND also says You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
>>>Then Yahweh teaches about false Gods verse 13 onwards and then says he spreads out the earth by himself.

24“This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

See it’s crystal clear that Yahweh spread out the earth by myself, he laid the foundation of the earth my himself.

Isaiah 51:13
English Standard Version (©2001)
and have forgotten the LORD [Yahweh], your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, and you fear continually all the day because of the wrath of the oppressor, when he sets himself to destroy? And where is the wrath of the oppressor?

Isaiah 51:13 and Hebrews 1:10 are identical that the Lord – laid the foundations of the earth.
YET Yahweh said he did it ALONE… and the heavens are the WORKS of the Sons hands.

Hebrews 1
10And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,

Only the false gods will perish the Son will not perish because he is true God by nature
Jeremiah 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Notice in Jeremiah, Isaiah and Hebrews how they all align perfectly to prove that God is alone and only he the maker and creator will not perish but all other false gods will
It makes perfect sense JUST like it makes perfect sense for God ALONE to be Saviour. The Father doesn’t and didn’t need to lift a single finger to save the whole of mankind from there sin. Why because his eternal testament, his beautiful and Almighty Son derives his nature directly FROM the Father so it is FROM the Father that all things are done. It is BY and IN the Son that
we are saved and FROM the Father the one nature/essence that the Son comes.

Quote

2 Kings 1:6 Thus saith the LORD, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that thou sendest to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?

One of Baals names was Baalzebub, he is a false God, Yahweh teaches this and used Elijah to prove this [Elijah then slaughtered 450 of Baals prophets]. Note this is mentioned in Kings 1 so we know what kind of god Baal is. Now Baal is the lord of the flies and many people for good reason think he is Satan himself. What is scary the Jews who were so deaf to the Holy Spirit [blasphemy] thought it was by Baalzebub that Jesus was casting out demons but Jesus replied that Satan can’t cast out Satan. Satan is a fallen archangel he is not God by nature and had no involved in creating the magnificent galaxies, heavens and earth

Here is FALSE God Baal [Baalzebub] the devil.
1 Kings 18
24And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.” 25Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many, and call upon the name of your god, but put no fire to it.” 26And they took the bull that was given them, and they prepared it and called upon the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, “O Baal, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped around the altar that they had made.

27And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” 28And they cried aloud and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them. 29And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice. No one answered; no one paid attention.

Did the so-called god Baalzebub answer them? Did Elijah mock Baalzebub as being a real god? He is just a fallen angel who Gods allows to test and filter those to see and prove those who belong to truth.

Now did Yahweh, the one who is God by nature/essence answer Elijah and prove what it really means to be eternally Yahweh by nature? Note, it hadn’t rained as you know and Elijah uses much valuable water to saturate the wood to make sure that ALL the people would know it’s not a fire trick but a testament of the one and only true God.

36And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. 37Answer me, O Lord, answer me, that this people may know that you, O Lord, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.” 38Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.” 40And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.

Mike, are you feeling Yahweh calling you? I have VERY strong feelings he is calling someone. Mike the Holy Spirit keeps revealing scriptures in a more and more compounding way, he does this because he Loves you and everyone here! I pray he will use me his unworthy servant to raise up mighty men of God.

Mike there is only one true God in nature and this nature is expressed to do all his work, and that work is done by his one and only true Son our Lord Jesus, the expressed substance and the Lord of Glory, the Fathers eternal testament and revelation of his Glory.

All the works of God are done in tri-unity FROM and BY and IN the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
There are at least two explicit testaments the Father gives multiple times in scripture regarding his Son/Word. [1] NO ONE has ever seen Yahweh yet they have seen Yahweh the Almighty explicitly and [2] The Sons works reveal that he is the exact same nature and essence as his true Father. No angel can do the works of the one and only true Son.

Yahweh wants people like Saul/Paul and Moses to leave their former life’s to turn to him and to be used mighty to reveal to those very people who they have come from the revelation of the Son. Was there anyone better than Moses to reveal the truth about the Hebrews to Pharaoh and the Egyptains?
Common sense teaches that the Father wasn’t an Almighty Father of NOTHING but he is truely Almighty [Not just potentially Almighty]. The revelation of his Almighty and eternal power and glory can be clearly seen in the Lord of Glory his true Son, the one and only who alone derives his nature and substance directly from his true Father. 1×1 = 1

PLEASE understand you will never receive condemnation from the Son by calling him Lord and God or holding his FEET and WORSHIPPING him BECAUSE he is true God and not a false God by nature and NO ONE ever has been condemned but instead scripture teaches they are blessed and healed.

Mike, when you see the Son you see the Father so PLEASE don’t reject him. When you see the Son you certainly don’t see Michael or Gabriel or any other archangel or so-called god.

I sincerely want you and everyone to accept Jesus as their true lord and saviour. I want you and all to like Moses and Paul and work migthy miracles in the world that need the true light of Christ to shine in the darkness.

Receive life in the Son, the true Lord Jesus Christ who is the first and the last. Who ALONE is the one and only way to his true Father!
Blessed be his name and in his name be salvation to everyone.
Daniel

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,03:55)

kerwin, Is Jehovah a spirit? Is the Spirit of Jehovah a spirit? Is the Spirit of Christ a spirit?

LU,

They are all spirit but not the same definition of spirit.

[Lightenup]

Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition.
I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.

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