Who is this Jesus?

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June 15, 2013 at 1:52 am#347650

mikeboll64

Blocked

Hope you have a great weekend, and a happy father's day. May each of your kids get you a tie!

June 15, 2013 at 1:56 am#370473

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2013,11:07)

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2013,05:49)

Quote (kerwin @ June 13 2013,23:27)

Quote (terraricca @ June 13 2013,16:51)

Quote (kerwin @ June 13 2013,11:37)

Quote (terraricca @ June 13 2013,07:51)

Quote (kerwin @ June 13 2013,06:47)

Quote (terraricca @ June 13 2013,03:56)

Kerwin

Quote

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

why do you quote this verse to what we discussing

You asked how animals can be frustrated by bondage and I pointed out how the heavens, mountains, and the like can rejoice over freedom.

Kerwin

your lack of scriptures understanding is so great that I will try to help you ;

first that verse is talking in an ALLEGORY WAY

they mountains are not real mountains but THE POWERFUL LIKE KINGS , people ,THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH ARE SAID FOR THE COMMON PEOPLE ,

the FOREST ARE NOT A REAL FOREST THOSE ARE REPRESENTING THE WEALTHY ONES ,

THE TREES ARE A REPRESENTATION OF THE LEADERS ,

EZE 6

That is not in the context though those you speak of will also rejoice. Here is another one.

Psalm 19:1-6
King James Version (KJV)

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Kerwin

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world

Pr 8:32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pr 8:33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
Pr 8:34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
Pr 8:35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
Pr 8:36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”

Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

this is the way of God ;look for it ,find it quickly and so be saved .

Wisdom is given the attributes of a person in those verses of Proverbs just as creation is later.

Kerwin

you do not have wisdom ,and so you cannot find what gives life ,according to the ;
Pr 8:35 For whoever finds me (is it wisdom??) finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
Pr 8:36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”

You are just providing more evidence to support my conclusions that all creation means all creation and not just those that have ears to hear in it.

All those who persevere in their belief are sons of God and all of God's creation waits for them to be revealed.

kerwin

your conclusion is wrong ,because you do not believe in scriptures but only in what KERWIN thinks what is good for himself to believe ,

this is why you believe untruth ,and say things that you have no clue what it means ,this is the result and side effects of the rejection of scriptures ,

June 15, 2013 at 2:34 am#370474

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2013,07:47)

What do you say, Kerwin? Was the gospel preached to angels? How about the four creatures before the throne of Jehovah? Was it preached to cockroaches? Whales? Venomous snakes?

Or do you think it is more likely that sometimes the words “all creatures” refers to only human beings – depending on context?

Mike,

I understand that “all creation” means “all nations” in the context of Mark but also understand “all creation” can in other contexts mean “all creation”.

June 15, 2013 at 2:57 am#370475

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2013,08:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2013,07:47)

What do you say, Kerwin? Was the gospel preached to angels? How about the four creatures before the throne of Jehovah? Was it preached to cockroaches? Whales? Venomous snakes?

Or do you think it is more likely that sometimes the words “all creatures” refers to only human beings – depending on context?

Mike,

I understand that “all creation” means “all nations” in the context of Mark but also understand “all creation” can in other contexts mean “all creation”.

like all things created

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

June 15, 2013 at 7:12 pm#370476

kerwin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 15 2013,08:57)

Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2013,08:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2013,07:47)

What do you say, Kerwin? Was the gospel preached to angels? How about the four creatures before the throne of Jehovah? Was it preached to cockroaches? Whales? Venomous snakes?

Or do you think it is more likely that sometimes the words “all creatures” refers to only human beings – depending on context?

Mike,

I understand that “all creation” means “all nations” in the context of Mark but also understand “all creation” can in other contexts mean “all creation”.

like all things created

Yes, it is basically the same discussion we have had before.

June 15, 2013 at 7:37 pm#370477

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2013,20:34)

Mike,

I understand that “all creation” means “all nations” in the context of Mark but also understand “all creation” can in other contexts mean “all creation”.

Fair enough.

June 17, 2013 at 1:09 am#347856

4Thomas

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2013,12:52)

Hope you have a great weekend, and a happy father's day.

May each of your kids get you a tie!

Thanks Mike, its not Fathers day here in NZ at the moment unless i'm missing something? Ah, just checked the wiki and its celebrated in different countries at different times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father%27s_Day#New_Zealand

Mike, I hope you had a nice time with your Son and all are well and happy. Hope you got a good pressie too

I will reply soon to your question, quick summary is –

I only believe Jesus is “the one and only” Son eternally because he is THE “one and only” expressed substance e.g THE WORD this is truly what he is, THE Word of the Father, BY and IN and THROUGH all things are made.
The Father is the source and eternal Father of the word, the Father is FROM whom all things come.
The Father doesn't need a testiment to show his power because his Son displays his Glory. The Father doesn't need to create an ocean or mountain or star as he generates his Son, his Word. Stars and mounatins and galaxies and oceans and universes mean ALBOLUTELY NOTHING in comparism to his beautiful and glorious perfect Word and Son. Praise be to the Father for allowing him to come to earth for our sake to show the Fathers love, how awesome is our God, from glory to glory and mercy to mercy.

Mike, this debate is not if Jesus is the Son of God but if he is true God or an arch angel or michael.
I can't show you how weak your arguement and assumptions are regarding Jesus being an arch angel until you start giving me at least some scripture, so as soon as we finish with what it means to be “the one and only true Son” we need to address this.

At the moment all the testing it totally one sided and thats unfair and if you want to compare the evidence you need something to make a comparism against.

What (i think) i believe is common sense to its fulness, I truly believe this.
I believe, if something doesn't make sense then there is usually a very good reason for that. I test myself and what i believe as much as possible, especially regarding reading the scriptures for what they explicitly teach and not trying to reword or twist them to my own beliefs. I try and find arguements for everything I believe to combat myself.

I like talking with you mike as you are very emmotionly stable and I feel like I can talk the truth in love without you going off the handle. Lets pray for each other and remember everthing we do is out of love, one of us has been blinded by very powerful deception of lucifier (the fallen archangel) and only truth can set us free.

Hope you have a good night and fathers day.
Daniel

June 17, 2013 at 2:18 am#347867

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ June 16 2013,19:09)

Mike, this debate is not if Jesus is the Son of God but if he is true God or an arch angel or michael.

I don't think Jesus is Michael, the archangel…. although I am aware of the scriptures that lead the JWs and others to believe that. And I must say that those scriptures could easily be understood that way. I just don't personally believe it at this time.

Daniel, YOU are the one who started this thread and titled it like a debate about whether or not Jesus was an angel. But from the time I met you, my intention has always been to show you from scriptures that Jesus is not God Almighty. And that is what I still intend to do. To me, this “angel” thing is a tiny little sidebar that has already been decided by your own words. If we both agree that an “angel” is a spirit son of God, and “Jesus” is a spirit son of God, then what is left to discuss about it?

Is it your claim that Jesus is such a DIFFERENT kind of spirit son of God that he cannot be an angel like all the other spirit sons of God?

Is it your claim that Jesus cannot be an angel because he created all things?

Quote (4Thomas @ June 16 2013,19:09)

I can't show you how weak your arguement and assumptions are regarding Jesus being an arch angel until you start giving me at least some scripture, so as soon as we finish with what it means to be “the one and only true Son” we need to address this.

I don't really NEED an argument at all, since you've already agreed that an angel (I never said “archangel”) is a spirit son of God, and Jesus is one of those.

But here goes a couple anyway:

Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John…….

There is a clear “chain of command” being followed here, Daniel. God Almighty uses angels (spirit messengers) to convey His thoughts and instructions to others. In this case, Jesus was the immediate messenger OF God, who in turn conveyed God's message to a messenger of his own, who in turn conveyed God's message to John, who in turn conveyed God's message to elders/messengers of the churches, with the intent that those elders would in turn convey God's message to the members of those churches.

Can you see how it was GOD'S message all along, and how GOD'S message was first conveyed to His servant Jesus, and then on down the line all the way to the members of those churches?

It was not Jesus' message – but God's. Jesus was just the first spirit messenger in the “chain of command”. And a “spirit messenger of God” is, by very definition, an “angel of God”.

So now we can add “spirit messenger of God” to “spirit son of God” as definitions of “angel”. And so far, Jesus is BOTH of these things, right?

Then there's the fact that you believe it was Jesus who went before the Israelites in the wilderness, when it is clear from scripture that God sent one of His angels to go before the Israelites. (You have made the claim that Jesus AND an angel of Jehovah went with them, but have shown no evidence that TWO entities went before the Israelites in the wilderness.)

And finally:
Galatians 4:14
…..you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

The only way a comparison like this works is if the individual mentioned is a part of the group mentioned. So Paul was clearly calling Jesus an “angel of God”.

So things aren't really as “one-sided” as you thought, are they?

June 17, 2013 at 6:48 am#347910

4Thomas

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2013,13:18)

Quote (4Thomas @ June 16 2013,19:09)

Mike, this debate is not if Jesus is the Son of God but if he is true God or an arch angel or michael.

Is it your claim that Jesus is such a DIFFERENT kind of spirit son of God that he cannot be an angel like all the other spirit sons of God?

Is it your claim that Jesus cannot be an angel because he created all things?

Quote (4Thomas @ June 16 2013,19:09)

I don't really NEED an argument at all, since you've already agreed that an angel (I never said “archangel”) is a spirit son of God, and Jesus is one of those.

But here goes a couple anyway:

Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John…….

Can you see how it was GOD'S message all along, and how GOD'S message was first conveyed to His servant Jesus, and then on down the line all the way to the members of those churches?

It was not Jesus' message – but God's. Jesus was just the first spirit messenger in the “chain of command”. And a “spirit messenger of God” is, by very definition, an “angel of God”.

So now we can add “spirit messenger of God” to “spirit son of God” as definitions of “angel”. And so far, Jesus is BOTH of these things, right?

And finally:
Galatians 4:14
…..you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

The only way a comparison like this works is if the individual mentioned is a part of the group mentioned. So Paul was clearly calling Jesus an “angel of God”.

So things aren't really as “one-sided” as you thought, are they?

Quote

I don't think Jesus is Michael, the archangel…. although I am aware of the scriptures that lead the JWs and others to believe that. And I must say that those scriptures could easily be understood that way. I just don't personally believe it at this time.

Mike, I really appreciate your explaination. We need to believe Jesus is something either 1)true God 2)archangel, Seraphim or Cherubim
c)man alone. [praise God we dont believe this!!!]

If you dont believe Jesus is true God then that only leaves two very powerful named archangels in the old testament, Gabriel and Michael.

See the JW's understand that Jesus has to be something in the Old Testament otherwise they are left looking silly so I appreciate their honestly. Otherwise you are left with a unnamed archangel, Seraphim or Cherubim in the old testment.

So mike, what is Jesus, this is my question, we can't just say hes a angel because I could say that humans are angels also because we know to be wholly human and to be wholly sancified you have a body, a spirit and a soul. The body and soul are mortal but the spirit is created immortal, if we eat from the tree of life our physical body then also becomes immortal. So we need to understand what and who jesus and be sure that what we are teaching that he is “is the true Jesus” becuase otherwise we could lead people away from eternal salavation and we are no different then to the fallen spirit angels who try and lead people away from the true Jesus.
So mike, the JW's have been around 100 years now so they have developed what they believe is the best alternative to jesus being true God and that is him being Michael the archangel so if you dont believe jesus is true God i wouldn't blame you for believeing this.

I need something to test scripture against, something to make a direct comaprism.

Quote

Is it your claim that Jesus is such a DIFFERENT kind of spirit son of God that he cannot be an angel like all the other spirit sons of God?

Yes. Jesus is one and only Son because he is the EXPRESSED Substance of the Father, the WORD that the Father expresses to create the heavens and the earth and the smallest details on our earth, whether they are water falls or mighty gallaxies. His word does this, the father doesn't need to lift a single finger because it is by the Sons hands that the heavens are made.

To explain this I need you to visualise yourself as being powerful, not static and fleshly, visualise being able to radiate power. Now if you were all powerful you would need something to express your glory of who and what you are.
Now visualise being able to generate your Son from your substance alone, or visualise you as “father” being able to generate FROM *your* substance alone a perfect Son in your exact image, at the same time remember there is no help from a women, the Son derives his nature directly from you ALONE.

Before anything was created, the Son was the one and only Son because he was and is the eternal testament of the eternal creation of the Father. But as he comes FROM the Fath
er alone he shares the exact same substance as the FATHER.

Think of Adam and eve, eve comes from the flesh of adam, they are seperate but eve is OF and FROM adam.
How do they bring children into the world it is from Adam substance that enters eve and it is by eves substance egg being united as one essence that IN and THROUGH eve a child is Born.
So the Father just speaks and his WORD and his Breath are sent forth and NOTHING can stop them because they are of the Fathers very substance expressed and communicated they are one with the Father and the Father is in them and they in him.

Sorry about the drawen out explanation just trying to show you how I see it.

Life in the Son, he will not condemn you for worship or calling him God as he never condemned anyone for these actions, because he is “the Word”, “the one and only Son”.

Daniel

June 17, 2013 at 8:53 pm#370478

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2013,21:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2013,11:15)

I don't need to force anything Mike. He who has the eyes to see, can see it.

In this case, he who has vivid imagination can see it.

Jesus has the title “Jehovah is our Righteousness”, just like Israel does. To read anything else into it is simply wishful thinking.

Jeremiah 23:6 NET ©
Under his rule Judah will enjoy safety and Israel will live in security. This is the name he will go by: ‘The Lord has provided us with justice.’ 4

Footnote #4:
The Hebrew word translated “justice” here is very broad in its usage………..

Here it probably sums up the justice that the LORD provides through raising up this ruler, as well as the safety, security, and well-being that result……..

Why do you suppose the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes very rarely support your “Jesus is God proof texts”? After all, these people also believe Jesus is God Almighty, yet they often go as far as to say, Any claim that these words somehow prove the Trinity Godhead is simply wishful thinking.

And that IS what you've been doing for years, right? Painstakingly searching the scriptures for any words you can “wishful think” into saying Jesus is God Almighty, right?

You should stop, Kathi. It's well founded in scripture that Jesus is the Son OF the Most High God. Oh, he's also the servant, lamb, prophet, priest and angel OF the Most High God.

Just stick with that, okay?

It is funny to me that you admit that the translators believe Jesus to be God Almighty and you know that the 'G' in God is capitalized in their translation. Yet you use them to try to prove that Jesus is not God Almighty. The truth that Jesus is YHVH the Son does not depend only on this one verse obviously. However, the Hebrew in this verse is similar to many compound names for YHVH. It would be interesting to see the NET notes on those others.

Do you admit that Jesus is a theos and that He is our righteousness? Yes or No?

June 18, 2013 at 1:08 am#347993

4Thomas

Participant

Hi Mike,
Let me be clearer.
Imagine you could multiply yourself by expressing your substance – now imagine that generation of your true Son in front of you. As he comes from your substance alone you have direct unbroken communication.
Now wouldn’t THIS be awesome!!
your Son testifies who and what you are and is sent forth to do all your work – you don’t have to left a finger – nothing is impossible for him –
you trust him fully as you have always known him and he has always known you – he is pure Truth – you are pure truth – he wants nothing more than be pleasing to you and you want nothing more than to give him all things.

See your multiplication of yourself, the generation of your Son would NOT mean a separate nature but a separate person in that one single nature.

An expressed image of one’s substance is a multiplication and NOT another substance.

1×1 = 1

I think it would be great to have the power to do this.
You could sit back and relax and watch your eternal testiment defeat all things, even humbling himself to take flesh and defeat destroy death, hell and the grave in the his flesh. Wouldn't you exalt him back to the glory you always had with him?

I believe the one true God expresses himself, he radiates his Glory. The Lord of Glory, “the Word”, the one and only true Son, perfect in every way, the Fathers [expressed substance] has taken flesh. Light from light– true God from true God. He is here and he loves us and he wants us to reveal him and have faith in him – if we trust in him he will not forsake us. If we deny him he will deny us.

Love and Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

June 18, 2013 at 1:16 am#370479

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,02:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2013,21:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2013,11:15)

I don't need to force anything Mike. He who has the eyes to see, can see it.

In this case, he who has vivid imagination can see it.

Jesus has the title “Jehovah is our Righteousness”, just like Israel does. To read anything else into it is simply wishful thinking.

Jeremiah 23:6 NET ©
Under his rule Judah will enjoy safety and Israel will live in security. This is the name he will go by: ‘The Lord has provided us with justice.’ 4

Footnote #4:
The Hebrew word translated “justice” here is very broad in its usage………..

Here it probably sums up the justice that the LORD provides through raising up this ruler, as well as the safety, security, and well-being that result……..

And that IS what you've been doing for years, right? Painstakingly searching the scriptures for any words you can “wishful think” into saying Jesus is God Almighty, right?

You should stop, Kathi. It's well founded in scripture that Jesus is the Son OF the Most High God. Oh, he's also the servant, lamb, prophet, priest and angel OF the Most High God.

Just stick with that, okay?

Do you admit that Jesus is a theos and that He is our righteousness? Yes or No?

LU,

Joshua and Jesus are the same name in different languages. Is Joshua salvation. Yes as he led the conquest of Canaan. Never the less though his name is God is salvation, he is not Jehovah.

June 18, 2013 at 1:23 am#347996

4Thomas

Participant

Hi Mike

And here is the greatest revelation to who and what he is in the Old Testament. And Jesus makes it because the Pharisees understand what he is saying.

John 5
18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
30“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
31“If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.32“There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Jesus teaches the Pharisees it is in the Old Testament that bears witnesses about “who and what” – Jesus the Word is. So we need to search the scripture to see what they say.

From Old testament Jesus should be either revealed as a
1)true God
2) archangel, Seraphim or Cherubim

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice NOR SEEN HIS FORM,
Numbers 12:8
With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; HE SEES THE FORM of the LORD [Yahweh]. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Numbers 12:6-10
New International Version (©2011)
6he [Yahweh] said, “Listen to my words:

>> Yahweh says listen to my words he has something important to tell us, we really need to open our hearts and ears
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
>>>Yahweh teaches that many times he has spoken to prophets in visions, e.g the fire in a dream etc.

7But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
>>>Yahweh says this is not the case with Moses, this means he didn’t speak to him in a vision or a dream. Now if he didn’t speak to Moses in a dream or vision how did he speak with him???

8With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord [Yahweh].
>>>Yahweh says he spoke with Moses Face to Face, mouth to mouth. This becomes even more compounding evidence, compounding upon compounding. Not in visions, but face to face AND he sees my form.
he sees the form of the Lord [Yahweh].
HE SEEN THE FORM OF YAHWEH, ***Not in a vision***

This is exactly what Jesus the eternal Son says. No-one has ever seen the Father or seen his form

Mike, to make sure i'm clear please read the following about Exodus 33 as exodus 33 also teaches that moses seen Yahweh [the Word] face to face, and it compounds this further by just saying as a man speaks to his friend. Yahweh is revealing that he talked with Moses face to face as men speak to each other.

Exodus 33: 19-21
18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19And the Lord said, “I will cause ALL my goodness to pass in front of you, ….. 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
22 When my GLORY passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
So Yahweh CLEARLY mentions that he couldn’t see his face because Yahweh was revealing **ALL** his Goodness. AND Moses had to wait until his GLORY passed by!

Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent.
11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp….
>>Yahweh [the Word] came down and stood there with Moses and passed in front of Moses. It’s absolutely impossible and dishonest for Moses to say this unless it happened.
5Then the Lord [Yahweh] came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord [Yahweh]. 6And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”
8Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.

AND this is further compounded yet again as it says that Moses also worshiped because YAHWEH stood there with him.

Now the MOST important question you will ever have to ask yourself is why on earth would, “God the Word” in flesh say to the Pharisees for the sake of their salvation.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice NOR SEEN HIS FORM,

Jesus is either true god or no God at all which doesn't say much for his Father, considering he is the “one and only” true Son.

Love and life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

June 18, 2013 at 1:37 am#347997

mikeboll64

Blocked