Who is this Jesus?

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,00:40)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2013,13:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,00:00)

Mike,
Do you believe that the theos of John 1:1b sent the theos of John 1:1c to earth to die at the hands of men?

Yes or No

Yes.

Mike,
Thanks for your answer.
So you do believe that a mighty theos who existed before creation, died at the hands of men, right?

I believe a mighty god existed at the right hand of the Most High God AFTER his God created him, and before his God created all other things through him.

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,00:40)

You just don't understand that the 'Lord of all' who has all things that the Father has would be all-mighty but I do believe He would be all-mighty.

I believe there can be only ONE “All-Mighty”. There can be only ONE “Most High god”.

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,00:40)

I also believe that together they are mightier than alone which I don't believe they ever are alone.

I disagree, Kathi. If God GAVE me the power to pick up a mountain, I don't believe God Himself LOST any power in that process. So just because God GAVE me that power is not to say the God and I together are now more powerful than God is alone.

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,00:40)

The theos of John 1:1b was with theos of John 1:1c in the beginning.

Agreed.

May 22, 2013 at 1:00 am#370322

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,01:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2013,00:02)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:22)

T8,

The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God, the Messenger kind. It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.

Show me, Kerwin.

Mike,

I am of the opinion you should already know as it is laid out clearly in the first chapter of Hebrews. Still I feel obliged to call out what I see.

* About the angels: Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
* About Jesus:Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus is not included in the group but placed in a separate group called Son.

Then it it is written “But to which of the angels…”

It is not a member of the group angels to whom he said “Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Kerwin,

You said:

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,01:23)

Jesus is not included in the group but placed in a separate group called Son.

But that group, if translated literally, is “messengers”, right? Does that mean Jesus is NOT a messenger of God?

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,01:23)

Then it it is written “But to which of the angels…”

To which the answer very well could be: Jesus.

For example, if the question was: To which of the kings of Israel did God say, “Go, strike down the Philistines and deliver Keilah”, the answer would be: To David. (1 Samuel 23:2)

See what I mean? The question doesn't distinguish David as something OTHER THAN a king of Israel. Instead, it distinguishes him AS one of the kings of Israel.

Jesus is the ONLY angel of God to whom God said, “You are my Son. Today I have begotten you.” Get it? The answer to the question is “Jesus”.

May 22, 2013 at 1:07 am#370323

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,13:34)

Mike,
Regarding Acts 20: 28, why do you have a problem with the verse as I posted it? You agree that the only begotten theos is the head of the church and He obtained it with His own blood, right?

Because Kathi, when it is called “the Church of Christ”, it is referring to God's anointed servant, Jesus Christ.

When it is called “the Church of God”, it is referring to God Almighty – not Jesus. And since Paul was referring to the Church as “the Church of God” in this case, the “God” is “God Almighty”, IMO.

And God Almighty does not have blood. He has never been a man, has never had blood, and has never died.

So let me ask YOU why you don't like it the way the NET Bible translates it. If the Greek words are “the blood of his own”, and it COULD refer to God Almighty's own blood (which He doesn't have), or it COULD refer to the blood of someone who BELONGS TO God Almighty – then which is the most obvious meaning?

To me, it's a no-brainer. Apparently the 25 Trinitarian scholars of NET Bible agree.

May 22, 2013 at 1:12 am#370324

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2013,05:46)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2013,05:42)

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2013,00:13)

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,06:07)

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,05:40)

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38)

Malachi 3:1-2

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I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me.

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the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming

kerwin

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Both are from the throne of God.

I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2

The center of God's power is God's throne.
John Immerser is send from God who sits on his throne.
Jesus Anointed comes from God who sits on his throne.

Allegorically God sits on his throne.
Allegorically John Immerser was to be sent from God.
Allegorically Jesus Anointed was coming from God.

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Allegorically John Immerser was to be sent from God.

this is not allegoric but real,

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Allegorically Jesus Anointed was coming from God.

this also is not allegorical ,it is real

To me many things others deem allegorical I do not. I was trying to look at it from the the point of view of such people. I might well have failed to do so properly.

if you can not be truthful to the truth all of the time,disregarding anyone else but God ,then what truth do you have

we all should live our lives like it is the last day we live ,AND SO BE LIVING A TRUTHFUL LIVE BEFORE OUR GOD,;not men

May 22, 2013 at 1:25 am#370325

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,02:25)

DANIEL

Quote

Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

I do believe what Mike told you ,Christ his as describe in Col;1 15-21,and so in Prov 8;22-31 now if you start reading in proverb 1;8

Pr 1:8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

this letter his addressed to Christ ;the FATHER BEING HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER BEING THE WRITTEN LAW WITH THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM ,

Hi,
Colossians, Jesus is the eternal expression of how wonderful the Father is, the Father's glory radiates from the Father as unapproachable light, this Glory is never dissipated as its Almighty in nature instead this glory is the expressed image of the Father which scripture reveals is THE Son, who is indeed the Lord of Glory.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

He’s not the angel of glory

Yes i understand that most people believe that proverbs speaks of Jesus and I originally thought so but strongly believe it talking about wisdom, its also revealed that God created the world by his wisdom among many other attributes, Jesus possesses these attributes he is not the attributes themself.

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

<>
English Standard Version
The Light of the Gospel
1Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Don’t forsake the Son and he won’t forsake you.

Please show me why you believe Jesus is a angel

Life in THE Son and life is his name
Daniel

May 22, 2013 at 2:32 am#370326

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2013,07:00)

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,01:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2013,00:02)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:22)

T8,

The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God, the Messenger kind. It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.

Show me, Kerwin.

Mike,

I am of the opinion you should already know as it is laid out clearly in the first chapter of Hebrews. Still I feel obliged to call out what I see.

* About the angels: Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
* About Jesus:Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus is not included in the group but placed in a separate group called Son.

Then it it is written “But to which of the angels…”

It is not a member of the group angels to whom he said “Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

Kerwin,

You said:

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,01:23)

Jesus is not included in the group but placed in a separate group called Son.

But that group, if translated literally, is “messengers”, right? Does that mean Jesus is NOT a messenger of God?

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,01:23)

Then it it is written “But to which of the angels…”

To which the answer very well could be: Jesus.

For example, if the question was: To which of the kings of Israel did God say, “Go, strike down the Philistines and deliver Keilah”, the answer would be: To David. (1 Samuel 23:2)

See what I mean? The question doesn't distinguish David as something OTHER THAN a king of Israel. Instead, it distinguishes him AS one of the kings of Israel.

Jesus is the ONLY angel of God to whom God said, “You are my Son. Today I have begotten you.” Get it? The answer to the question is “Jesus”.

Mike,

Jesus is not placed into the group of messenger kind. Human beings, dogs, cats, and many more are not messenger kind even if they are messengers.

The answer to which member of the messenger kind is none because Jesus is not a member in the group messenger kind according to the proceeding.

He is made better than the messenger kind.

Hebrews 1:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

May 22, 2013 at 2:46 am#370327

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ May 22 2013,07:25)

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,02:25)

DANIEL

Quote

Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

I do believe what Mike told you ,Christ his as describe in Col;1 15-21,and so in Prov 8;22-31 now if you start reading in proverb 1;8

Pr 1:8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

this letter his addressed to Christ ;the FATHER BEING HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER BEING THE WRITTEN LAW WITH THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM ,

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

He’s not the angel of glory

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

Don’t forsake the Son and he won’t forsake you.

Please show me why you believe Jesus is a angel

Life in THE Son and life is his name
Daniel

Daniel

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

here is what Paul describe to be Christ

Christ being an angel ,? on two accounts 1) he his the messenger (angel)of God 2) he his the son of God and so he his an spirit being like all the other angels that God created .

now going back to Col 1 ;you did not present anything in your comment except paraphrase many different scriptures in different books,
and by doing so try to bring forth your miss concept explanation,

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

Col 1:16 For by him(THROUGH) all things were created:

SO WHO IS THE PROPHET IN PROVERB TALKS ABOUT
AND WHO DOES PAUL TALKS ABOUT

Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

IS THE DESCRIPTION IN VERSE 30 AND 31 CAN BE APPLIED TO YOUR ATTRIBUTE

YOU SEEM TO QUOTE SCRIPTURES LIKE THEY ARE PLACING YOU IN THE TRUE ADVANTAGE OF BEING TRUTHFUL IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING ;

Quote

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

now let talk about the glory of God and the glory of Christ ;it seems to me that the glory of God is his word spoken or written that declare his will;HOW MORE THEY GET FULFILLED HOW GREATER HIS GLORY;

CHRIST ON THE OTHER HAND IS GOD'S EXECUTOR OF HIS FATHER AND GOD WILL OR WORD ,SPOKEN OR WRITTEN ;BY DOING SO HE HAS ENHANCED THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER AND GOD ,IN RETURN HIS FATHER AND GOD AS MADE HIM THE SECOND IN POWER AND RESURRECTED HIM SO THAT HE COULD GO TO HIS DISCIPLES AND SHOW THEM THAT ALL WHAT HIS FATHER TOLD HIM AND THAT HE TOLD HIS DISCIPLES PRIOR TO HIS DEAD WAS TRUE ,WHAT ALSO BRINGS MORE GLORY TO THE FATHER AND TO THE SON FOR BOTH BEING TOTALLY TRUE ,

WE DO NOT SEE GOD ,BUT WE CAN UNDERSTAND HIS TRUTH ,PROVIDING WE LET THE TRUTH OF GOD INSIDE OF OUR HEARTS ,AND WITHOUT A DOUBT BELIEVE IT.

NO MAN CAN TAKE OUT OF MY HEART WHAT I HAVE RECEIVED FROM GOD THROUGH CHRIST ,MEN DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A POWER

May 22, 2013 at 6:16 am#370328

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2013,13:46)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 22 2013,07:25)

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,02:25)

DANIEL

Quote

Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

I do believe what Mike told you ,Christ his as describe in Col;1 15-21,and so in Prov 8;22-31 now if you start reading in proverb 1;8

Pr 1:8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

this letter his addressed to Christ ;the FATHER BEING HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER BEING THE WRITTEN LAW WITH THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM ,

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

He’s not the angel of glory

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

Don’t forsake the Son and he won’t forsake you.

Please show me why you believe Jesus is a angel

Life in THE Son and life is his name
Daniel

Daniel

here is what Paul describe to be Christ

Christ being an angel ,? on two accounts 1) he his the messenger (angel)of God 2) he his the son of God and so he his an spirit being like all the other angels that God created .

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

Col 1:16 For by him(THROUGH) all things were created:

SO WHO IS THE PROPHET IN PROVERB TALKS ABOUT
AND WHO DOES PAUL TALKS ABOUT

Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

IS THE DESCRIPTION IN VERSE 30 AND 31 CAN BE APPLIED TO YOUR ATTRIBUTE

YOU SEEM TO QUOTE SCRIPTURES LIKE THEY ARE PLACING YOU IN THE TRUE ADVANTAGE OF BEING TRUTHFUL IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING ;

Quote

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

WE DO NOT SEE GOD ,BUT WE CAN UNDERSTAND HIS TRUTH ,PROVIDING WE LET THE TRUTH OF GOD INSIDE OF OUR HEARTS ,AND WITHOUT A DOUBT BELIEVE IT.

NO MAN CAN TAKE OUT OF MY HEART WHAT I HAVE RECEIVED FROM GOD THROUGH CHRIST ,MEN DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A POWER

Hi,
I'm not asking you to believe that the Son is the Father,
all I'm wanting is for you to realise that the Son is true God hes not a idol or a false god he is one with his father in unity of substance because the Son is the exact same substance and the expressed image of the Father.

I honestly care I wouldn't watse my time otherwise, i truly believe Jes
us is not a angel but true God.

But we not only need to believe in one true God we must also realise that the Son (who is true God, the Lord of Glory) became man to die for our sins.

Its no good just believe in that the father and Son are true God if you don't believe that the Son took on flesh and died for our sins.

If you still think Jesus is an angel
Please show me why you believe Jesus is a angel

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

May 22, 2013 at 11:58 am#370329

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ May 22 2013,12:16)

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2013,13:46)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 22 2013,07:25)

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,02:25)

DANIEL

Quote

Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

I do believe what Mike told you ,Christ his as describe in Col;1 15-21,and so in Prov 8;22-31 now if you start reading in proverb 1;8

Pr 1:8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

this letter his addressed to Christ ;the FATHER BEING HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER BEING THE WRITTEN LAW WITH THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM ,

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

He’s not the angel of glory

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

Don’t forsake the Son and he won’t forsake you.

Please show me why you believe Jesus is a angel

Life in THE Son and life is his name
Daniel

Daniel

here is what Paul describe to be Christ

Christ being an angel ,? on two accounts 1) he his the messenger (angel)of God 2) he his the son of God and so he his an spirit being like all the other angels that God created .

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

Col 1:16 For by him(THROUGH) all things were created:

SO WHO IS THE PROPHET IN PROVERB TALKS ABOUT
AND WHO DOES PAUL TALKS ABOUT

Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

IS THE DESCRIPTION IN VERSE 30 AND 31 CAN BE APPLIED TO YOUR ATTRIBUTE

YOU SEEM TO QUOTE SCRIPTURES LIKE THEY ARE PLACING YOU IN THE TRUE ADVANTAGE OF BEING TRUTHFUL IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING ;

Quote

Don’t let man ever rob you of the knowledge of God and the knowledge of his glory.

WE DO NOT SEE GOD ,BUT WE CAN UNDERSTAND HIS TRUTH ,PROVIDING WE LET THE TRUTH OF GOD INSIDE OF OUR HEARTS ,AND WITHOUT A DOUBT BELIEVE IT.

NO MAN CAN TAKE OUT OF MY HEART WHAT I HAVE RECEIVED FROM GOD THROUGH CHRIST ,MEN DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A POWER

Hi,
I'm not asking you to believe that the Son is the Father,
all I'm wanting is for you to realise that the Son is true God hes not a idol or a false god he is one with his fathe
r in unity of substance because the Son is the exact same substance and the expressed image of the Father.

I honestly care I wouldn't watse my time otherwise, i truly believe Jesus is not a angel but true God.

But we not only need to believe in one true God we must also realise that the Son (who is true God, the Lord of Glory) became man to die for our sins.

Its no good just believe in that the father and Son are true God if you don't believe that the Son took on flesh and died for our sins.

If you still think Jesus is an angel
Please show me why you believe Jesus is a angel

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

daniel

Christ his the only begotten son that God CREATED AS HIS FIRST CREATION ;IN THE BEGINNING ,AND THROUGH WHICH GOD CREATED ALL OTHER THINGS;

WHAT WOULD YOU THING ,CHRIST IS IS THEIR ANYONE ELSE THAN CHRIST THAT CAN CLAIM TO BE THE ONLY ONE THAT GOD CREATED DIRECTLY FROM HIS OWN NATURE

BUT THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM GOD ALMIGHTY ,BUT IT MAKES HIM DIFFIDENTLY “A GOD ” AND THERE I WILL NOT GO AGAINST THAT,BUT AGREE WITH IT ,

YOU ALSO DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS ;

May 23, 2013 at 1:35 am#370173

Participant

Quote

SO WHO IS THE PROPHET IN PROVERB TALKS ABOUT
AND WHO DOES PAUL TALKS ABOUT

Hi T,
I asked you questions about wisdom before which you didn’t answer, that’s fine but I have already answered every verse that has been tried to be applied to show that wisdom is Jesus. Wisdom is never defined as a prophet. Nowhere does it ever refer to wisdom as a he. Wisdom is always referred to as a “she” even in the greek, people get confused when they see the single word that is sometimes translated as craftmans.
THIS DOES *NOT* MEAN THAT ITS NOW A “HE” and its now not wisdom but Jesus

The word for craftsman in the Hebrew is amon which means “one brought up” architect, or skilled. Its translated to craftman not to specify wisdom as a he but to show its by wisdom the skilled architecture which crafted,
Craftsman can refer to a female [even in the modern age we live in]

H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): – one brought up.

AND when you continue to read proverbs following directly you see the words. Blessed is the man that heareth me. NOTE: Man refers to both male and female, ofcourse this is what the Hebrew teaches and if it didn’t it would be only males that could be blessed by hearing wisdom.

Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Just because God used wisdom to create the world it doesn’t mean Wisdom is Jesus.

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

To be honest it doesn’t really bother me if Jesus was revealed to be wisdom as he and the father possess the fullness of wisdom. But wisdom is truly revealed as a female and scripture teaches it’s a gift of the holy spirit.

Please can we stop going over and over the wisdom stuff I have answered that many questions regarding it.

Regarding Pauls teaching yes I believe all scripture and I interperate scripture with scripture.

Quote

Daniel

Jesus is a Son in a two fold fashion
1: In his nature as God he is the eternal Son of God that is the Fathers expressed glory and substance
2: As a Son of man, who is also a Son of God in his human nature also!
WE CAN ONLY *NOW* BE *ADOPTED* SONS and daughters of God because Jesus.
NOW we are called *adopted* Sons of God, we had no access to the father without the Son coming to earth and dying for our sins.

Now I have been asking and asking do you believe Jesus is an angel and if so please show me the scriptures to prove this.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

May 23, 2013 at 2:12 am#370172

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ May 23 2013,07:35)

Quote

SO WHO IS THE PROPHET IN PROVERB TALKS ABOUT
AND WHO DOES PAUL TALKS ABOUT

H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): – one brought up.

Just because God used wisdom to create the world it doesn’t mean Wisdom is Jesus.

Please can we stop going over and over the wisdom stuff I have answered that many questions regarding it.

Regarding Pauls teaching yes I believe all scripture and I interperate scripture with scripture.

Quote

Daniel

Now I have been asking and asking do you believe Jesus is an angel and if so please show me the scriptures to prove this.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

Daniel

I have answered your question ,in the previous posts,also your question is vague for angel means :heavenly being but also Messenger,so what do you mean ANGEL means in your question

May 23, 2013 at 2:47 am#370170

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,20:32)

Mike,

Jesus is not placed into the group of messenger kind.

Hi Kerwin,

Where in the scriptures can I read about this “messenger KIND”? As far as I know, all the angels are spirit sons of God. Jesus is also one of those. In fact, he was the firstborn.

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,20:32)

The answer to which member of the messenger kind is none because Jesus is not a member in the group messenger kind according to the proceeding.

Well, since the preceding cannot be scripturally shown to me, your answer of “none” is null and void.

What about my example about King David, Kerwin? Could the answer to the question be the name of a particular king of Israel, even though the question started with, “To which of the kings of Israel did God ever say………..” ? Of course it can – and you know it.

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,20:32)

He is made better than the messenger kind.

Hebrews 1:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

But could the word “other” be implied? Let's compare a similar instance:

2 Kings 25:28
He spoke kindly to him, and gave him a more prominent seat than those of the kings who were with him in Babylon.

The above words were written about King Jehoiachin, who was exiled to Babylon. And from the wording, one could conclude that Jehoiachin was NOT a king at all, since he seems to be listed separately from “the KINGS who were with him”. In fact, many translations ADD the word “other” before kings in that verse, because they know Jehoiachin WAS a king, and was being distinguished from OTHER kings. Here are a few of them:

New International Version (©2011)
………the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

New Living Translation (©2007)
……the other exiled kings in Babylon.

NET Bible (©2006)
…………the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
……..the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

MSG ©
…..the other political prisoners held in Babylon.

BBE ©
……..the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

What this tells us is that phrases such as the one you quoted are ambiguous. The phrase you quoted COULD BE distinguishing Jesus FROM the angels……… or the word “other” COULD BE implied – like it is in the verse I quoted.

A similar thing also happens in Luke 11:42,
NIV ©
“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs……..

Again, the word “other” is not actually in the text, but is implied, and so ADDED by certain translators.

At any rate, now you can at least see that your “proofs” in Hebrews 1, about which you said to me, “I am of the opinion you should already know as it is laid out clearly in the first chapter of Hebrews”, aren't really laid out as clearly as you claimed them to be.

And for my support that Jesus IS an angel, I offer you:

Galatians 4:14
Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

This kind of comparison statement ONLY works if the INDIVIDUAL mentioned is part of the GROUP mentioned. I've shown you this before, right?

And finally, I offer you this fact:

The ENGLISH (not Greek, nor Hebrew) word “angel” refers to a spirit messenger of God. Not only is Jesus a spirit messenger of God, but he is so predominant in that role that he has as one of his titles, “The Word of God”.

May 23, 2013 at 3:06 am#370169

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ May 21 2013,19:25)

Yes i understand that most people believe that proverbs speaks of Jesus and I originally thought so………

I wonder what changed your mind from your original instinct about that passage, Daniel. Surely it wasn't the thought that IF the wisdom in that passage WAS Jesus, then the passage clearly speaks about the ORIGINS of Jesus………….. or was it?

Quote (4Thomas @ May 21 2013,19:25)

…the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you suppose the Father is “the image OF God”? I don't understand why you can't see these easy things. For anyone to be “the image OF someone”, they must first be someone OTHER THAN that “someone”. One is not said to be “in the image OF” themselves, Daniel.

So if Jesus is the image OF “God”, it seems clear to me that he is someone OTHER THAN “God”. And there are MANY other scriptures that just as clearly distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN his and our God.

May 23, 2013 at 3:47 am#370167

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2013,08:47)

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,20:32)

Mike,

Jesus is not placed into the group of messenger kind.

Hi Kerwin,

Where in the scriptures can I read about this “messenger KIND”? As far as I know, all the angels are spirit sons of God. Jesus is also one of those. In fact, he was the firstborn.

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,20:32)

The answer to which member of the messenger kind is none because Jesus is not a member in the group messenger kind according to the proceeding.

Well, since the preceding cannot be scripturally shown to me, your answer of “none” is null and void.

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,20:32)

He is made better than the messenger kind.

Hebrews 1:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

But could the word “other” be implied? Let's compare a similar instance:

2 Kings 25:28
He spoke kindly to him, and gave him a more prominent seat than those of the kings who were with him in Babylon.

A similar thing also happens in Luke 11:42,
NIV ©
“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs……..

Again, the word “other” is not actually in the text, but is implied, and so ADDED by certain translators.

And for my support that Jesus IS an angel, I offer you:

Galatians 4:14
Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

This kind of comparison statement ONLY works if the INDIVIDUAL mentioned is part of the GROUP mentioned. I've shown you this before, right?

And finally, I offer you this fact:

Mike,

Just because you do not acknowledge a thing in Scripture does not mean it has not been shown to you.

When the account of creation states creatures reproduce after their own kind then you comprehend what kind means. So I don't see why trouble understanding what I mean when I say messenger kind.

Jesus is not one of those of whom God said “Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.”

Hebrews 1:7-8
An Interpretation.

7 And of the angels and the Son he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

It clearly ruins the comparison.

Note: bolded and italicized word added to display that there presence lacks sense.

May 23, 2013 at 6:32 am#370164

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2013,14:06)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 21 2013,19:25)

Yes i understand that most people believe that proverbs speaks of Jesus and I originally thought so………

Quote (4Thomas @ May 21 2013,19:25)

…the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

No Mike,
I wasn't raised or taught by a church or organisation. And for the record I even looked into the jws teachings as I had remebered some really nice people, i to this day pray for them.

Mike my salvation is more important to me than my pride or any man or manmade teaching.
My conscience is clear, crystal clear I don't struggle with what i teach, otherwise I would be to worried to teach that which i truly didn't believe.

Jesus is my TRUE Lord, he is the TRUE Son and I love him with all my heart soul and mind.

I'm trying to lead you to Jesus *not* what i personally believe is the right church or a doctrine or anything else that is not related to salvation. I hope you can see this.

I believe the Father is eternally Father – i don't forsake him as not being a Father and not being Eternally Almighty and his eternal testiment of his brillance. He is eternally perfect he doesn't later need to have a Son to enhance his abilitly to reveal himself and his glory to mere man.

Scripture teaches that Jesus as a *man* is the NEW ADAM the first among the true new creation I'm sure you agree with me regarding this…

So Jesus as a man is the First among the new creation just as he is the First to be raised from the dead. Jesus is also the first among all creation because he eternally comes from the Father. I believe this.

Mike any child understands a TRUE Son has the same nature as his Father, this is basic stuff, if you could see this. I'm sorry to sound smart but this is the truth and I care.
Imagine if you seen a debate of someone trying to prove that your TRUE Son wasn't really human like you.

Also wisdom is eternal I have already proven this, I just refuse to make a her a him and a gift of the holy spirit a person. Mike God used wisdom to create the world its an attribute.

I'm trying to leed you to jesus as true Son and true Lord
I honestly don't even understand what you are trying to teach me that “the Word” ” the great God and Saviour” is a unknown angel in the old testament.

Christ is the rock in the old testament.

I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let them foretell what will come.
8Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

What do you want me to believe? That Jesus is a false God a angel or a man alone?

lets forget our pride, who cares about that, God loves us, and yes he could have clicked his fingers and saved us but he didn't he wanted to show the greatest gift of his Love and there was no greater Love for him to take the form of a servant and to die at the hands of evil men for all who would only love him. Its all about truth and love.

Life and love in the Son and in his name
Daniel

May 23, 2013 at 6:38 am#345368

Participant

Mike, did you see my post?

I honestly think the key to understand Jesus is to understand that he is the true Son and the true Lord

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

May 23, 2013 at 6:51 am#370163