Who is this Jesus?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,01:25)

By taking on human flesh, its simple. Jesus spirit didn't change, Jesus received a human body, his human body grew but his spirit is the same yesterday today and forever.

Hi Daniel,

You and I both believe there exists only ONE Almighty God.  This is good, because this is correct.  Question:  Can the persons within your Godhead be separate?  In other words, when Jesus took sin upon himself, did the entire being of God Almighty take sin upon Themselves?

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,01:25)

6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

There are two things worth noting in that NIV translation:

1.  The 1984 version says, “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped“.  Why do you suppose the 100+ TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NIV later completely reversed that first understanding?

2.  The word “theos”, in part a, is written in the Greek genitive form.  That means we must translate as “OF God” – not just “God”.  So they can faithfully translate it as “who was existing in the form OF God”, or “who was existing in the nature OF God”.  But the translation, as you quoted it, is flawed.  It is a fake, as “being in very nature God” cannot be derived from the Greek words of Phil 2:6.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,01:25)

you believe Jesus is an angel so what angel is he?

He is the angel of God who is named Jesus.  I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,01:25)

Matthew 11:27 New International Version (NIV) 27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

And what do you aim to prove with this scripture?  To me it says that our one and only Almighty God revealed Himself to His firstborn Son, Jesus Christ, and Jesus reveals Him to some of us.

What is your point?  That the some of us to whom Jesus reveals his Father are also God Almighty?

Daniel, I hate doing these discussion in such large measure.  You post 100 “Jesus is God proof text” in one post, I scripturally refute every one of them, and then nothing is ever concluded.

For example, have you now realized that the NIV translation of Phil 2:6 is flawed?  Do you now realize that Paul's words actually distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the God he was existing in the form OF?  Will I have closure on this one “proof text” so that I never have to see you use it again?

Or how about Matthew 11:27?  Do you realize how is doesn't even come CLOSE to saying Jesus is the Almighty God who has revealed things to him?  Do I have closure on this “proof text” so that I never have to see you use it again?

These are the things I want to accomplish with our one-on-one debate, Daniel.  I want you to post your “proof texts” – one at a time – so they can either be scripturally substantiated, or scripturally refuted.

I already know from many discussions in the past that they ALL will be refuted.  And that's what I want to teach you.  I want you to know that you are believing in a doctrine that is only supported IF you take a very SMALL amount of scriptures that can be understood two different ways, and insist upon understanding them only one way.  And not only do you have to do the above, but along with that, you must also COMPLETELY IGNORE the VAST AMOUNT of remaining scriptures.

So when are we going to get to this?  For right now, I'll be happy to have your acknowledgement about that NIV Phil 2:6 translation, and your acknowledgment that Matthew 11:27 doesn't say one thing about Jesus being the God he is the Son of.

Will you acknowledge those two things for me?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,06:46)

I disagree with wisdom being referred to as a “he” as nowhere does it say this.

Daniel,

Most people, many of them Trinitarians, believe the wisdom in Prov 8:22 is Christ.  You apparently don't, and that's fine.

The two points we were making are:

1.  If the wisdom IS Christ, then it is clear that Christ had a beginning, and that he was created.

2.  You can't possibly refute our belief that the wisdom is Christ simply by pointing out that the word “wisdom” is feminine.

It doesn't matter that the wisdom isn't called a “he” in the OT, because neither is the feminine word “Spirit” called a “he” in the OT.

Does the fact that the feminine word “spirit” isn't called a “he” in the OT mean that the Holy Spirit MUST BE a female?

Of course not.  So neither do these things prohibit the wisdom in Prov 8 from being Christ.

Some of us believe it DOES refer to Christ.  And while you don't have to believe like we do, you can't refute our belief using the facts you've so far used.  

That's all we're saying.

peace,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2013,13:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,00:00) Mike, Do you believe that the theos of John 1:1b sent the theos of John 1:1c to earth to die at the hands of men? Yes or No Yes.

Mike,
Thanks for your answer.
So you do believe that a mighty theos who existed before creation, died at the hands of men, right?

You just don't understand that the 'Lord of all' who has all things that the Father has would be all-mighty but I do believe He would be all-mighty. I also believe that together they are mightier than alone which I don't believe they ever are alone. The theos of John 1:1b was with theos of John 1:1c in the beginning.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2013,00:02)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:22) T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them. Show me, Kerwin.

Mike,

I am of the opinion you should already know as it is laid out clearly in the first chapter of Hebrews.  Still I feel obliged to call out what I see.

* About the angels: Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
* About Jesus:Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus is not included in the group but placed in a separate group called Son.

Then it it is written “But to which of the angels…”  

It is not a member of the group angels to whom he said “Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

[kerwin]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:33)

Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him , Yes I agree, its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord. 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now.

T and Thomas,

How can the Christ come if he is already there?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,13:29)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him , Yes I agree, its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord. 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now. T and Thomas, How can the Christ come if he is already there?

kerwin

Christ first coming was announced through the prophets ,and Micah
was one of them ,but it was Christ himself that said that he would come back,and this is his second coming not yet fulfilled ,

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,19:59)

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,13:29) Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him , Yes I agree, its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord. 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now. T and Thomas, How can the Christ come if he is already there? kerwin Christ first coming was announced through the prophets ,and Micah was one of them ,but it was Christ himself that said that he would come back,and this is his second coming not yet fulfilled ,

T,

My question was how could Christ come into existence since he already was.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2013,13:01)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2013,23:58) Mike, Quote I'll await her scripture that says such a thing.  From what I'VE read in the scriptures, the Lord God Almighty SENT His Son into the earth where that Son died at the hands of men. Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. The Only Begotten God is the Almighty Lord of all. He wasn't always flesh but became flesh and His flesh died at the hands of men. Kathi, I don't read “Lord God Almighty” in that verse – so why post it? Also: Acts 20:28 NET © Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 6 Footnote #6 says: Or “with his own blood”; Grk “with the blood of his own.” The genitive construction could be taken in two ways: (1) as an attributive genitive (second attributive position) meaning “his own blood”; or (2) as a possessive genitive, “with the blood of his own.” In this case the referent is the Son, and the referent has been specified in the translation for clarity. This targets what jb has been trying to tell you in your debate thread – the same thing others of us have been trying to tell you for years here:  You can't just pick one or two ambiguous scriptures out of the Bible and base your entire understanding on them. Even these 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET Bible understand the sensible meaning of the words, and translate accordingly. Use your brain here, Kathi.  Is God a man of flesh and blood?  What do the scriptures say?  Did God Almighty Himself come to die at the hands of men?  Or did God Almighty SEND His SON to do this deed?  What do the scriptures say? You can't even sensibly tell me if Jesus was God Almighty on earth – or someone LESSER THAN God Almighty when on earth.  You have instead come up with TWO Almighty Gods, (which the word “Almighty” would prohibit in the first place) one of whom was lesser than the other…….. one of whom prayed to and worshiped the other. The only question is:  Was Jesus the Most High God?  Or the Son OF the Most High God?   He cannot be both.  Luke 1:32-35, and 8:38 tell us clearly which one Jesus was.   It is not up to you to WANT Jesus to ALSO be the Most High God, and then make it so.  You're either going to read the scriptures and believe them, or you're going to make up your own scriptures that teach what you WANT them to teach. So far, you have been doing the latter.  I'm urging you to do the former. I still await a scripture that calls Jesus “the Lord God Almighty”.

Mike,
Regarding Acts 20: 28, why do you have a problem with the verse as I posted it? You agree that the only begotten theos is the head of the church and He obtained it with His own blood, right?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,21:52)

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,19:59) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,13:29) Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him , Yes I agree, its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord. 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now. T and Thomas, How can the Christ come if he is already there? kerwin Christ first coming was announced through the prophets ,and Micah was one of them ,but it was Christ himself that said that he would come back,and this is his second coming not yet fulfilled , T, My question was how could Christ come into existence since he already was.

Kerwin

yes he was existing as the son of God in heaven as the future lamb to be send from God to die for us ,and the time came wen he appeared as foretold by God's prophets Micah be one of them

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,02:49)

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,21:52) Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,19:59) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,13:29) Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him , Yes I agree, its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord. 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now. T and Thomas, How can the Christ come if he is already there? kerwin Christ first coming was announced through the prophets ,and Micah was one of them ,but it was Christ himself that said that he would come back,and this is his second coming not yet fulfilled , T, My question was how could Christ come into existence since he already was. Kerwin yes he was existing as the son of God in heaven as the future lamb to be send from God to die for us ,and the time came wen he appeared as foretold  by God's prophets Micah be one of them

T,

John Immerser was to be sent by Jehovah and Jesus was coming from him.  Both are from the throne of God.

Note: Corrected spellin of Immerser.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,04:18)

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,02:49) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,21:52) Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2013,19:59) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,13:29) Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him , Yes I agree, its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord. 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now. T and Thomas, How can the Christ come if he is already there? kerwin Christ first coming was announced through the prophets ,and Micah was one of them ,but it was Christ himself that said that he would come back,and this is his second coming not yet fulfilled , T, My question was how could Christ come into existence since he already was. Kerwin yes he was existing as the son of God in heaven as the future lamb to be send from God to die for us ,and the time came wen he appeared as foretold  by God's prophets Micah be one of them T, John Immenser was to be sent by Jehovah and Jesus was coming from him.  Both are from the throne of God.

kerwin

interesting ,news to me ,you have any scriptures

[kerwin]

T,

Malachi 3:1-2

Quote

I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me.

Quote

the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38)

T, Malachi 3:1-2 Quote I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Quote the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming

kerwin

Quote

Both are from the throne of God.

I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,05:40)

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38) T, Malachi 3:1-2 Quote I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Quote the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming kerwin Quote Both are from the throne of God. I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2

T,

The center of God's power is God's throne.
John Immerser is send from God who sits on his throne.
Jesus Anointed comes from God who sits on his throne.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,06:07)

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,05:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38) T, Malachi 3:1-2 Quote I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Quote the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming kerwin Quote Both are from the throne of God. I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2 T, The center of God's power is God's throne. John Immerser is send from God who sits on his throne. Jesus Anointed comes from God who sits on his throne.

kerwin

all men are here by the will of God ,but not all are doing the will of God,and so are not use for providing the message that God wants all of us delivered to each other,

you are using strange words that you do not understand ,you mixing allegoric words to literal views,

have you grasp the truth

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,06:16)

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,06:07) Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,05:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38) T, Malachi 3:1-2 Quote I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Quote the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming kerwin Quote Both are from the throne of God. I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2 T, The center of God's power is God's throne. John Immerser is sent from God who sits on his throne. Jesus Anointed comes from God who sits on his throne. kerwin all men are here by the will of God ,but not all are doing the will of God,and so are not use for providing the message that God wants all of us delivered to each other, you are using strange words that you do not understand ,you mixing allegoric words to literal views, have you grasp the truth

T,

I am convinced I have a grasp on the message that is the way to seek God and his righteousness.  I am still seeking to understand the details.

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
I want this debate to be about comparing the evidence.

We can start with your scripture first that you use to try and prove that Jesus is an angel

Galatians 4-14
and that which was a temptation to you in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but ye received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Example:
I’m a newly adopted Son of a royal king and I visit the royal kings mother,
Now just because she welcomes me as a true royal Son or even as the royal king himself it doesn’t mean
A: that I have royal blood flowing through my vains
B: that I am the King himself
C: that another family member with royal blood is the king himself.

If we welcome someone who is a messenger of the Lord, [exact same word for angel] of the lord, then we welcome them like Jesus THE Son or even the Father. Jesus wants us to pay great respect to the people he sends

This is what scripture teaches.

Matthew 10:40
New International Version (©2011)
“Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.

So Jesus is teaching if we welcome one of his messenger’s we welcome him and even the Father. He is teaching us to show great respect to the messengers he sends.

New Living Translation (©2007)
“Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me.

Just to drive the message home so that scripture can’t be used to try and prove that Jesus is an angel here are some other examples.

Matthew 18:5
And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me

If I use your logic are all children “Jesus” until they grow up??? This is the silly stuff you get into when you try and teach Jesus is an angel.

Mark 9:37
“Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”

Luke 9:48
Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”

Galatians 4-14
and that which was a temptation to you in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but ye received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

The word messenger and angel are the exact same word. The word messenger is translated to angel when the words “of the Lord” follow it. Do some research if you don’t believe me.

When Jesus sends someone they are a messenger of the Lord, “angel of the Lord”.
John 13:20 Very truly I tell you, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me.”

Once we finish with your scripture I will give you one of my scriptures to test, is this ok?

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

[terraricca]

Kerwin

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I am still seeking to understand the details.

then believe what is written in scriptures;
those are, most of the details provided by God
like all of Micah 3 and John 1 to 2 th

[kerwin]

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,06:07)

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,05:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38) T, Malachi 3:1-2 Quote I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Quote the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming kerwin Quote Both are from the throne of God. I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2 T, The center of God's power is God's throne. John Immerser is send from God who sits on his throne. Jesus Anointed comes from God who sits on his throne.

T,

Allegorically God sits on his throne.
Allegorically John Immerser was to be sent from God.
Allegorically Jesus Anointed was coming from God.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2013,00:13)

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,06:07) Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2013,05:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2013,05:38) T, Malachi 3:1-2 Quote I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. Quote the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming kerwin Quote Both are from the throne of God. I do not see those words in Micah 3-1-2 T, The center of God's power is God's throne. John Immerser is send from God who sits on his throne. Jesus Anointed comes from God who sits on his throne. T, Allegorically God sits on his throne. Allegorically John Immerser was to be sent from God. Allegorically Jesus Anointed was coming from God.

K

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Allegorically John Immerser was to be sent from God.

this is not allegoric but real,

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Allegorically Jesus Anointed was coming from God.

this also is not allegorical ,it is real

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