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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,21:15)
Can a Boll talk to a Boll?
Let's say I named my son “Mike Boll” and we shared the same glory. I would not say, “MY name is Mike Boll and I will share MY glory with no other”. I would say “OUR name is Mike Boll and WE will share OUR glory with no other”.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,21:15) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Is there more than ONE Savior of the earth named Jesus?
No.
What is your point?
My point is that there is only ONE Jesus. So if Jesus is the Servant OF God Almighty, then Jesus cannot also BE God Almighty – as if there are TWO of him. I'm glad you concede the point that there is but ONE Jesus.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,21:15)
This is about Jesus as Jehovah and to say it isn't you have to be very stubborn or confused…look at all the 'you's' in the verses surrounding it……..
Kathi, you are better at the intricacies of the English language than I am, so you should be able to see this:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son………….
God is the subject, and Jesus the object, right?
6 And when God again brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels do obeisance to him………..
God is the subject, and Jesus is the object again, right?7 In speaking of the angels he says……….
Again, God is the subject.8 But about the Son he says…………
God is again the subject.10 And in the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
God is STILL the subject.13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand…………
And once again, God is the subject.Kathi, God is the subject of all of the writer's statements. Why would you assume He is not in verse 10?
But you can solve this by showing me another scripture that lists Jesus as the subject in the act of creation. How many list God as the subject…………75? How many scriptures speak of our SINGULAR Creator? In fact, how many scriptures speak of our ONE God?
But for you, we don't have a Creator – we have Creators. For you, we don't have a God, we have Gods. This is in your mind and not of scriptures, Kathi. And that is why we differ in our understandings – you believe whatever it is you want to believe while I conform my beliefs to what the scriptures actually teach.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,21:15)
You can show me plenty of verses that show God as the subject of creation…obviously!! Jehovah is the creator. Jehovah is the name of the Father and the Son and their unity together with their Spirit. The Father and the Son together with their Spirit created all things.
See? This is an example of what I just said. There is NO scripture that says God's Son is named “Jehovah”. What scripture DOES say is that the Father's Name is Jehovah, and His Son is named “Jesus”.There is NO scripture that speaks of any being that is a unity of Father, Son and Spirit. What scripture DOES say is that the Being of our ONE God has a Son.
Can you not see the difference between what scriptures teach and what YOU teach?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,21:24) Mike, you wrote:
Quote If Jesus is not the One who made all these things, then he must be one of the things that One made. That's false teaching.
If Jesus is not the one being addressed, that doesn't mean that He wasn't with the one being addressed and that the one being addressed didn't make all things by Jesus. Of course when He is spoken of as the 'man' then we know the 'man' wasn't the maker of creation but the God as the Son who became man was with the One who made all things by His Son.
Kathi
It is YOU who is a false teacher. If the 24 elders say to God, “YOU created all things”, then it is clear that they are NOT the God they are addressing, and therefore have no choice but to be part of the creation BY the One they are addressing.Likewise, since the 24 elders said to ONE Being, “YOU created all things”, we can conclude that Michael the archangel is NOT that One, and is therefore a part OF the creation BY that One.
Kathi, do you agree with both of these FACTS?
If so, then it is only your “Exception for Jesus” rule that would make you try to exclude Jesus from the same parameters.
In Acts 4, they prayed TO the ONE who created all things, and they prayed to Him THROUGH His Holy SERVANT Jesus Christ. If Jesus is not the One they prayed TO, then he cannot be the ONE who created all things. And if he is not the ONE who created all things, then he must be one of the creations BY that ONE. Just like he himself tells us in Rev 3:14. He is the beginning OF the creation…………BY……….whom Kathi? WHO is the creation BY again?
You really need to put your personal wishes aside and let the scriptures teach you.
Mike,
Within the quote, the Son is the subject:8But of the Son He says,
“ YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“ YOU , LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Kathi,
I see it like this:
………therefore God, YOUR God, has anointed you……………
And ………[SPEAKING OF GOD]…………..you O Lord, laid the foundations………………..
I see how Jesus HAVING a God of his own excludes him from BEING God Almighty. I see that since God ANOINTED him, then he is NOT the God he is the anointed one OF. I see how if the heavens and earth were the work of JESUS' hands, then they were NOT the work of God's hands.
And I also notice in verse 11 that this Lord will not perish, but Jesus did – for three days.
I notice that this Lord will not change, but Jesus changed from spirit to man back to spirit. From alive to dead, back to alive.
There is always more to the story than what's on the surface, Kathi.
But my challenge was for you to find a supporting scripture, where Jesus is listed as the subject in the act of creation. Are you able to do that? Or is Heb 1:10 all you have?
I'd settle for a scripture that speaks of our CREATORS.
Mike,
I came across some words of yours and think that you should ask them of yourself in regards to what you just did in the post above:Quote Don't you think that when you have to start adding parenthesis and words that explain to us how YOU understand the scripture, something is wrong?
From: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=17;t=3178;hl=echad;st=330
My challenge was for you to find a supporting scripture, where Jesus is listed as the subject in the act of creation. Are you able to do that? Or is Heb 1:10 all you have?
I'd settle for a scripture that speaks of our CREATORS.
And Kathi, my brackets were to explain to you how I read Paul's words. Here is perhaps a better explanation:
God did this…………. And God said this about His angels……………..but about His Son, God said this……………and God also said this………..and, since we're on the subject of what GOD did and said, You Lord, laid the foundations…………..
That's how I read it. I don't read it as if Paul is crediting Jesus with the creation of the heavens and the earth.
That's why I'm asking you for a SUPPORTING scripture that lists Jesus as the subject in the act of creation. Then we would know for sure, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,19:25) And Kathi, my brackets were to explain to you how I read Paul's words. Here is perhaps a better explanation: God did this…………. And God said this about His angels……………..but about His Son, God said this……………and God also said this………..and, since we're on the subject of what GOD did and said, You Lord, laid the foundations…………..
That's how I read it. I don't read it as if Paul is crediting Jesus with the creation of the heavens and the earth.
That's why I'm asking you for a SUPPORTING scripture that lists Jesus as the subject in the act of creation. Then we would know for sure, right?
MikeYes that is the way to read it,
Mike you are breaking context with that approach and forcing a bias. You have to account for the 'and' which is connecting the phrases having to do with the Son. There is nothing said to indicate a change in the speaker or person spoken about.
Kathi
Pierre:
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,
“ YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“ YOU , LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 04 2011,11:59) Mike you are breaking context with that approach and forcing a bias. You have to account for the 'and' which is connecting the phrases having to do with the Son. There is nothing said to indicate a change in the speaker or person spoken about. Kathi
Dear Heavenly Father,You have made all things beautifully. Our salvation is in Your hands, for you have said about your Son, “He will shepherd my flock with the strength of Jehovah, his God”. And, about your Messiah you've said, “My servant David will rule in righteousness because the zeal of Jehovah will make this happen.” And you, O Lord, are faithful forever, and so we can believe in you and the shepherd you will set over us.
I praise you through the name of the Mediator you've placed between us, God………..Amen
Kathi, in my prayer above, why does the bolded word “and” mean I'm still speaking of things said about Jesus? I wasn't, you know. But you could put quotation marks in there, and make it seem like I was.
My point is that the word “kai” that you mention doesn't insist the following were things said by God about Jesus. They could just as easily be words said by Paul about God the Father.
That's why I keep asking for a supporting scripture, Kathi. If there are none, then chances are that the MANY scriptures that speak of God creating TO THE EXCLUSION of Jesus are valid.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 05 2011,18:36) Pierre: Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,
“ YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“ YOU , LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
Kathi9“ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”what is it you do not understand in this verse ??
Pierre
Mike,
In your example all the 'you's and your's' are pointing to one person, the Father. In Hebrews all the you's are pointing to one person, the Son. The 'and' is just a part of the reason this is further talking about the Son, all the 'you's' are another reason. Have you noticed the Eusebius thread and that Eusebius admits to there being a second 'LORD' (Jehovah). Also, he admits that the Son is not a subordinate angel and also admits that the Son is called the Creator. Did you know that you were that far off of what Eusebius understood? He would not be having this problem with this passage. In fact, I haven't come across anyone that thinks like you do on this verse who is considered a scholar in the Greek language…have you? Just read it without a bias and it is easy to see that the Son is the 'you' in all these verses.Actually Kathi,
The whole passage is about the FATHER as the subject, and the Son as the OBJECT of words the Father said ABOUT him.
See? It is the FATHER who is doing all the action. It is the Father saying this about the Son, and that about angels, and this other thing about the Son, etc.
In fact, God is the only one doing any action at all in Hebrews 1:5-13. Every single action is performed by God, Kathi. So why would the action of verse 10 be any different?
It's just like in my prayer, Kathi. I set it up the same way as the Hebrews passage – where God was doing the action of speaking about His Son. And God also did the action of creating.
Anyway, I keep asking you for a SUPPORTING scripture that speaks of Jesus as the SUBJECT in the act of creation. If you could show me one, then you'd have a leg to stand on.
As it is, you've only listed a passage where it speaks of many things God said about, and did for His Son. A passage that speaks of Jesus' own God (who he said was also our God and “the only true God) setting Jesus above Jesus' peers.
Kathi, I have posted at least FOUR scriptures for you that specifically distinguished Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things. And there are countless scriptures that speak of God/Jehovah being the Creator (SINGULAR) of everything.
So, is Heb 1:10 really all you have as proof that Jesus created?
Kathi,
Is YOUR interpretation of Heb 1:10 all you have in the way of showing Jesus as the subject in the act of creation? Or do you have supporting scriptures that would makes us have Creators, instead of a Creator like scripture says?
Mike you know that there are passages that acknowledge that Jesus was credited as the agent of creation.
John 1:3
Col 1:16
Heb 1:3
1 Cor 8:6That wasn't my question, Kathi. Nor does having all things created through you automatically make you a “co-creator”.
What I'm looking for is a scripture (other than YOUR interpretation of Heb 1:10) where Jesus is listed as the SUBJECT in a sentence about the act of creation.
If there are none, then just be a good little girl and say, “There are none”.
I'm also looking for any scripture that speaks of the Creators of all things instead of the Creator of all things. If there are none, then just say so.
Thanks,
mike
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