Who is the creator of all things?

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2012,13:39)

Maybe you forget all the scriptures that I put up in Proverbs, each in several translations, comparing how the words in question are not translated as you would like to impose.

Why would we only consider one Book in the Bible? Weren't other Books also written in the Hebrew language? So why would you limit our search to only Proverbs?

I've showed you scriptures from Genesis and Deuteronomy where the word is translated as various forms of “create”.

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2012,13:39)

You also choose to forget that I proved that a son, being born, means that he had to exist beforehand……

Yes Kathi, you like to compare Jesus being inside his God with a baby developing within its mother. And you like to call this developmental stage an “existence”.

But you keep forgetting that anyone who was ever born in the history of creation also was subject to a time when they didn't exist BEFORE they were born. Only your own imagination convinces you this was different in the case of Jesus.

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2012,13:39)

I pray that the Lord will not let you forget the facts that I have shown you

I will make the same prayer for you.

February 17, 2012 at 3:32 am#278823

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2012,15:56)

Hi LU,
So you think it was all his WORD.
God never spoke through him??

Nick,

Jesus spoke both for His Father as well as for Himself. All of His words reflect truth. There is no variance in their light. They both have the wisdom of God. Now the Holy Spirit brings their words to life to those with ears to hear and eyes to see.

February 17, 2012 at 3:54 am#278825

Participant

Mike,

Quote

Why would we only consider one Book in the Bible? Weren't other Books also written in the Hebrew language? So why would you limit our search to only Proverbs?

The book of Proverbs had the verse in question. It makes perfect sense to see how the same author uses the word as it relates to wisdom through the rest of the book and there are several verses to look at…none of which supports the translation of 'created.' It is part of a word study to look at how the author uses the same word. The other verse that you offered associated with wisdom did not use the word 'create' and even if it did, it refutes your position because it does not place wisdom as being 'created' before all other things.

Quote

Yes Kathi, you like to compare Jesus being inside his God with a baby developing within its mother. And you like to call this developmental stage an “existence”.
But you keep forgetting that anyone who was ever born in the history of creation also was subject to a time when they didn't exist BEFORE they were born. Only your own imagination convinces you this was different in the case of Jesus.

Well, we are given the terms 'begotten' and 'birth' so the terms were intended to relate in some manner to which we understand the terms in the realm that we exist in. It seems foolish to think that 'begotten' and 'birth' would mean instantaneous existence when it doesn't mean that in our realm. God has explained Himself in nature and nature tells us that one exists before they are born. So when the Bible uses the word 'born' then we should understand that one already exists beforehand.

You mention that everyone who is born in the history of creation did not exist at one point but you keep forgetting that God's ways are NOT man's ways. The Father here, always existed and always was Father, therefore…there was always a Son within to beget or the Father would at one time not been the Father.

Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

Kathi

February 17, 2012 at 3:56 am#278826

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2012,16:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2012,14:50)

Kathy

demon are also in the flesh of men is it the same ? if not why not ?

Marty, oops, I meant Pierre (edited to add that)
Demons are foreign to the body they seek to possess. Jesus was one with His body of flesh.

Kathi

February 17, 2012 at 9:37 pm#279030

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2012,20:54)

It is part of a word study to look at how the author uses the same word.

Oh, you mean like how John meant “beginning” each time he used the word “arche”, yet you insist that word means “ruler” in Rev 3:14?

February 18, 2012 at 5:28 am#279110

Participant

Mike,
I think that 'beginning' is a good choice as a translation since it is likely the choice elsewhere in Revelations. In Revelations Jesus is the 'Beginning and the End' and so I do think that what that means is related to Rev 3:14. That would rule out Jesus as a first 'created' creature but so does the rest of the Bible, imo. He would certainly not also be the last created creature and therefore the first created creature and the last created creature doesn't work at all. As I have said before, it could relate to His begettal as the beginning act of God (not the beginning of existence) although not a creative act. Being the beginning and the end could refer to being the 'only' begotten Son. If I had just one biological kid, that kid would be my first and my last biological kid. Just saying.

Kathi

February 18, 2012 at 8:05 am#279122

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2012,13:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2012,15:56)

Hi LU,
So you think it was all his WORD.
God never spoke through him??

Nick,

Hi LU,
So you say he spoke for God?
Sort of like an interpreter?

February 18, 2012 at 2:27 pm#279154

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2012,22:28)

it could relate to His begettal as the beginning act of God (not the beginning of existence) although not a creative act.

Hmmm……………..let's see:

Beginning of the creation by [my] God.

To me, that sounds like Jesus is the first thing created by his God. Of course, we all realize that your WISH for Jesus not to be a creation of his God will inhibit your understanding.

(I added the implied “my” just to remind you who it was that Jesus credited with the creation in that verse. )

February 18, 2012 at 7:11 pm#279177

Participant

Nick,
Do you have a particular passage spoken by Jesus that you can ask me about?

Kathi

February 18, 2012 at 7:13 pm#279179

Participant

Mike,
There you go, adding words that are not there.

February 18, 2012 at 8:21 pm#279193

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2012,13:56)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2012,16:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2012,14:50)

Kathy

demon are also in the flesh of men is it the same ? if not why not ?

Marty, oops, I meant Pierre (edited to add that)
Demons are foreign to the body they seek to possess. Jesus was one with His body of flesh.

Kathi

Hi LU,
We no longer speak of Jesus according to the flesh.
We speak of Jesus CHRIST

The anointing changed him and enabled him to work as God visiting His people

February 18, 2012 at 10:16 pm#279213

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2012,12:13)

Mike,
There you go, adding words that are not there.

Oh, I think the “my” is implied from verse 12, where Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times.

February 18, 2012 at 10:26 pm#279218

Participant

Ahhh Nick,
He was annointed to be the Messiah before He even came in the flesh. Who did the angels say was born in the City of David?

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

There is no future tense in 'which IS Christ the Lord.'

If we no longer speak of Jesus according to the flesh, how do we take communion?

1 Cor 11: 23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

Kathi

February 18, 2012 at 10:39 pm#279221

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2012,16:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2012,12:13)

Mike,
There you go, adding words that are not there.

Oh, I think the “my” is implied from verse 12, where Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times.

Mike,
You need to read according to the context. This letter of 3:14 is a completely new letter written to a completely different church and in the context of that letter 'Father' is the word He uses.

I can agree that His begettal could be what is referred to as the beginning of the creation of God but His begettal was not a creative act but the act of bringing out that which already existed within the Father to work alongside the Father.

Remember He is not part of the works of old but existed before the works of old.

Kathi

February 19, 2012 at 2:10 am#279268

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2012,08:26)

Ahhh Nick,
He was annointed to be the Messiah before He even came in the flesh. Who did the angels say was born in the City of David?

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

There is no future tense in 'which IS Christ the Lord.'

If we no longer speak of Jesus according to the flesh, how do we take communion?

Kathi

Hi LU,
There was only one CHRIST and the angels knew his appointed mission.
But few would agree he was born anointed with God's Spirit.
His powers were only shown after the Jordan.

February 19, 2012 at 6:02 am#279294

Participant

Nick,
“Few” if few were Mary and Elizabeth then we really don't need more than that but then there are the Magi and Herod and his scribes and Simeon the priest. They all knew that He would be born as the Messiah. The powers He expressed were to give evidence to His role as the Messiah that He was born as.

Read Luke 1:41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45“And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

The Magnificat

46And Mary said:
“My soul exalts the Lord,

47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

48“For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.

49“For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.

50“AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.

51“He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.

52“He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has exalted those who were humble.

53“HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.

54“He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,

55As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and his descendants forever.”

The magi knew that the baby was the king of the Jews and Herod asked where the Messiah was to be born. See here:

Matt 2:1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, 2“Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” 3When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. 5They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:

6‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH,
ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH;
FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER
WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’”

Here is what Simeon had to say:

Luke 2:30For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,

32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed— 35and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

Also, there were many anointed ones, as in priests and prophets. Christ means anointed one. Only one was meant to bring eternal salvation though.

I think that I have sufficiently proven with scripture that Jesus, as a baby was the Messiah, He didn't just become the Messiah at His baptism.

Kathi

February 19, 2012 at 8:31 am#279321

Participant

Hi LU,
Yes he was promised.
Suffering servant, Messiah and King.
But all these things had to be held for God's timing.

Do you think he made a baby jump in the womb and why?

February 19, 2012 at 2:58 pm#279360

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2012,15:39)

And therein lies the crux of our disagreement, Kathi. I believe that “beginning OF the creation by God” means that Jesus was the first part OF the creation by God.

Surely the beginning OF human kind was a human. And the beginning OF animal-kind was an animal.

It stands to reason then that the beginning OF creation was a creation.

(I agree with you that Jesus was Christ and Lord from before the ages, and that you have scripturally refuted any of Nick's claims to the contrary. In fact, Matthew 2:4 that you quoted is enough in itself.)

February 20, 2012 at 5:40 am#279599